An Apology to TDO

[Lord Tri]

ADI did what they thought was right then, they are doing what they think is right now. Good luck to all of you.

[claphamsa]

[quote name='the masheen' date='10 April 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1270928381' post='2255719']
Yeah, but who knows? Maybe a group of nations in TDO will finally succumb to the boredom and nothingness that is a nuetral alliance and decide to create an alliance of rogue nations in an attempt to ZI someone after realizing they had just spent all that time doing absolutely nothing thus creating the mind set that planet bob is boring and figure that they might as well go out in a bang but during the attacks realize that planet bob can actually be pretty fun if you have a little chest hair and get into some scraps every once in awhile. What if that happens?
[/quote]
thats one hell of a sentence.... in both stupidity and length!

[the masheen]

[quote name='claphamsa' date='10 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1270950088' post='2255996']
thats one hell of a sentence.... in both stupidity and length!
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

But back on topic, I really do wish ADI luck in sorting this thing out.

[Infidel Israeli]

I'm confused, an alliance attacks you and you apologize to the alliance it spawned from? Ehh, your alliance, not mine. Have fun with...whatever you're doing.

[Lazarus Grant]

[quote name='Kevin McDonald' date='10 April 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1270942931' post='2255905']
Not harsh enough, IMO, especially since based on Nathan Grant's post they still really seem not to understand what is going on.
[/quote]

Cryptic references to "what is really going on" do not mean much to me. Would you care to elaborate?

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Nathan Grant' date='11 April 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1271000014' post='2256369']
Cryptic references to "what is really going on" do not mean much to me. Would you care to elaborate?
[/quote]

Certainly. You stated yourself that you will continue to post on the OWF as you feel like it. This shows me, and many others, that you have no concept of the political reality surrounding your alliance. People don't like you, because you continue to seek attention by posting three times a week. You give people an opportunity to make fun of you, to rail against you, and you do your members an injustice by not allowing your alliance to just spend some time moving on quietly.

Many people in this thread have been much more polite to you than you deserve, and have given sound advice. You continue to reject this advice.

I suggest you look up an individual named "RyanGDI", and his alliance, GDI. ADI's track record, posts, and general ignorance of the way Planet Bob works is eerily similar to GDI's, and that is not a good thing.

That is what I meant.

[Ejayrazz]

"Why should we believe you now?"
"LOL, you gave in to terrorists?"
"LOL AT YOUR PAST"



Wow. Good to know we publicly condemn people for admitting they were wrong. You might not like them, but at least they have balls to admit their mistakes which nearly half of you and your alliances fail to do. (Particularly a few posting here)

I understand not liking someone or an entity for being idiots, but at least have the common sense to acknowledge someone respectfully for doing something right. They had nothing to prove with this apology, it was made because the op clearly knows mistakes were made in the past which many of you are quick to jump on them for; well, they're "doing it right," and apologizing [i]is an action[/i].

ADI, I am not too proud of your past either, but good luck in the future. You're doing this right, hopefully you continue to follow this example further down the road; thus, not requiring apologies at all later down the road.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[philp110]

Well said, Ejay. Any other alliance apologizing like this would have gotten, "Good for you, it's tough to apologize for past wrong doings."

[AvengingAngel256]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='11 April 2010 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1271001532' post='2256375']
Wow. Good to know we publicly condemn people for admitting they were wrong. You might not like them, but at least they have balls to admit their mistakes which nearly half of you and your alliances fail to do. (Particularly a few posting here)

I understand not liking someone or an entity for being idiots, but at least have the common sense to acknowledge someone respectfully for doing something right. They had nothing to prove with this apology, it was made because the op clearly knows mistakes were made in the past which many of you are quick to jump on them for; well, they're "doing it right," and apologizing [i]is an action[/i].

ADI, I am not too proud of your past either, but good luck in the future. You're doing this right, hopefully you continue to follow this example further down the road; thus, not requiring apologies at all later down the road.

Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Listen to this guy, He seems like He might be somewhat intelligent
ADI may have done things in the past that no one's agreed with but here they're acknowledging those mistakes and attempting to move forwards. You should at least show them some respect for trying to change their past image and move forward from it.
ADI; Good luck to you guys in the future.

[Egwaterboy61]

Apologizing and taking responsibility for your past actions is an honorable thing.

Good luck in the future ADI, and I am glad you guys are taking the right steps forward.

[the masheen]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='11 April 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1271001532' post='2256375']
"Why should we believe you now?"
"LOL, you gave in to terrorists?"
"LOL AT YOUR PAST"



Wow. Good to know we publicly condemn people for admitting they were wrong. You might not like them, but at least they have balls to admit their mistakes which nearly half of you and your alliances fail to do. (Particularly a few posting here)

I understand not liking someone or an entity for being idiots, but at least have the common sense to acknowledge someone respectfully for doing something right. They had nothing to prove with this apology, it was made because the op clearly knows mistakes were made in the past which many of you are quick to jump on them for; well, they're "doing it right," and apologizing [i]is an action[/i].

ADI, I am not too proud of your past either, but good luck in the future. You're doing this right, hopefully you continue to follow this example further down the road; thus, not requiring apologies at all later down the road.

Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]


OK, let me start off by saying I called ADI home for about 250 days. Most of my OWF posts are defending ADI and applauding them on jobs well done. If you don't believe me check out any post regarding ADI besides this thread. Don't give me this "If it were any other alliance you'd be saying good show", because it was THIS post that just turned me off to ADI. I considered myself friends to ADI's members, but we're not here to examine the past, were examining the present. Can someone tell me where they are admitting they are wrong? It sounds to me like they just decided to blame their FRIEND Warbuck for everything, and then dodge any attempt at blame by saying things like, "I was in small government and didn't know". They aren't owning up to their mistakes. They decided to use their FRIEND Warbuck as a scapegoat. Warbuck just got ZI'd in the name of ADI and then they come out with this message apologizing to the people that did it. After all he's done for them (the individuals in ADI and I know them all personally), they've decided to kick him while he's down. They are throwing him under the bus and out into the cold and they're "apology" basically amounts to, "We're sorry Warbuck screwed up but it wasn't OUR faults." They aren't owning up to anything. So if they wanted to come out with an apology without specifically mentioning names or making up excuses to save their own skins, I would have come here with uproarious aplause. The manner in which this apology was carried out is most disgusting. They just backstabbed and scapegoated their friend. I am of the opinion that this is the worst possible thing that anyone can do to someone. This is just my warning to everyone. Deal and make relations with ADI if you want...I cant stop you, but from personal experiences with them, they clearly have no problems in casting their friends out in the cold for the wolves. How dare you say they had "the balls" to do it. They had the balls to place all the blame on their leader, founder, and FRIEND. What balls they have indeed.

[Infidel Israeli]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='11 April 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1271001532' post='2256375']
"Why should we believe you now?"
"LOL, you gave in to terrorists?"
"LOL AT YOUR PAST"



Wow. Good to know we publicly condemn people for admitting they were wrong. You might not like them, but at least they have balls to admit their mistakes which nearly half of you and your alliances fail to do. (Particularly a few posting here)

I understand not liking someone or an entity for being idiots, but at least have the common sense to acknowledge someone respectfully for doing something right. They had nothing to prove with this apology, it was made because the op clearly knows mistakes were made in the past which many of you are quick to jump on them for; well, they're "doing it right," and apologizing [i]is an action[/i].

ADI, I am not too proud of your past either, but good luck in the future. You're doing this right, hopefully you continue to follow this example further down the road; thus, not requiring apologies at all later down the road.

Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]

Reasons people are making fun of them:

A. The timing. After an alliance attacks them, they finally see they've done wrong? Is it really that they are sincere, or that they can't get away with it anymore?

B. Mostly, people are condemning them not because they're apologizing, but because they're posting it on the OWF. Is a private channel apology not enough? They make a lot of OWF posts, and little of them need to be made.

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Infidel Israeli' date='11 April 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1271008239' post='2256433']
Reasons people are making fun of them:

A. The timing. After an alliance attacks them, they finally see they've done wrong? Is it really that they are sincere, or that they can't get away with it anymore?

B. Mostly, people are condemning them not because they're apologizing, but because they're posting it on the OWF. Is a private channel apology not enough? They make a lot of OWF posts, and little of them need to be made.
[/quote]

I would agree if they were facing a beat down. The sides of the war are fairly evenly matched in regard to total NS, while ADI has the total membership advantage. They are foregoing more war in order to take this as their punishment for their past actions. I think it is the attacks that have lead to the change in attitudes. They have gotten some "sense knocked into them."

I also believe that in this instance this is something the world should see. It is not just about a simple apology, but more about a change in attitude. I know without this post, I would have not seen a change in actions in ADI, but this has brought that to light for me.

[Infidel Israeli]

[quote name='Egwaterboy61' date='11 April 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1271008772' post='2256438']
I would agree if they were facing a beat down. The sides of the war are fairly evenly matched in regard to total NS, while ADI has the total membership advantage. They are foregoing more war in order to take this as their punishment for their past actions. I think it is the attacks that have lead to the change in attitudes. They have gotten some "sense knocked into them."

I also believe that in this instance this is something the world should see. It is not just about a simple apology, but more about a change in attitude. I know without this post, I would have not seen a change in actions in ADI, but this has brought that to light for me.
[/quote]


Never said they wouldn't win, just said they aren't getting out clean. I don't really know much of this new government to tell if they've really changed, so I base my opinions on the past until they prove me wrong in future action, instead of just this apology.

However, I respectfully disagree. To me, TDO and their close friends are the only alliances that needs to hear this. ADI has never cared about other's opinions, why put it on the OWF for everyone to see?

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='the masheen' date='11 April 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1271008113' post='2256432']
OK, let me start off by saying I called ADI home for about 250 days. Most of my OWF posts are defending ADI and applauding them on jobs well done. If you don't believe me check out any post regarding ADI besides this thread. Don't give me this "If it were any other alliance you'd be saying good show", because it was THIS post that just turned me off to ADI.[/quote]

No offense, but I never said "If it were any other alliance you'd be saying good show." If you are going to refute my commentary, at least understand what I did and did not say. Secondly, I do not recall quoting something you specifically stated and basing my post directly towards you, but rather a general statement to everyone.

[quote]
I considered myself friends to ADI's members, but we're not here to examine the past, were examining the present. Can someone tell me where they are admitting they are wrong? It sounds to me like they just decided to blame their FRIEND Warbuck for everything, and then dodge any attempt at blame by saying things like, "I was in small government and didn't know". [/quote]

They apologized before even mentioning his name in their referencing. Furthermore, it was Warbuck's actions if I recall correctly which put them in the position where they currently are, spanning from TDO's initial conflicts with ADI. Warbuck represented ADI and did so poorly as many agree, them apologizing for his actions are only understandable. As to whether they knew of his intentions or not, I will not argue that as anyone could say either yes or no, which will get no one anywhere.

[quote]They aren't owning up to their mistakes. They decided to use their FRIEND Warbuck as a scapegoat. Warbuck just got ZI'd in the name of ADI and then they come out with this message apologizing to the people that did it. After all he's done for them (the individuals in ADI and I know them all personally), they've decided to kick him while he's down. They are throwing him under the bus and out into the cold and they're "apology" basically amounts to, "We're sorry Warbuck screwed up but it wasn't OUR faults." They aren't owning up to anything. So if they wanted to come out with an apology without specifically mentioning names or making up excuses to save their own skins, I would have come here with uproarious aplause.[/quote]

Giving insight on a background is subjective; some understand it, some are against it. This apology wasn't **ONLY** for Warbuck's war plans, it was for their general disrespect which WASN'T only triggered towards Warbuck in their initial response. You are focusing in on one aspect of their post and completely ignoring the other.

The last bit you mentioned is mediocre; friend or not, Warbuck [i]did[/i] apprarently make mistakes and they are owning up to it as an alliance, I see nothing wrong with that. This apology focuses on the disrespect they gave TDO and their failed diplomat (which DOESN'T mention Warbuck) and Warbuck's alleged conspiracy.

You also mentioned how you feel this apology is fake and they are "kissing up?" Well, everything and anything can be seen as "kissing up," but what I see is an apology for their redundant past. The first step in getting anywhere is admittance; yes, have a warily eye if you must have doubt, but to automatically assume their true motivations when making this apology was "Hehehee, lets fake the cyberverse! WOOT!" makes you seem biased with emotions rather than logical with facts. Despite this war and how you feel about it, I feel it is only reasonable to apologize for mistakes which have been made, whether it takes a war to make you realize it or general common sense. Some people here have shed their opinion brilliantly, others have not.

It will take time for ADI to repair its image, but every long journey begins with one small step. Be wary, be skeptical, I encourage it rather than automatically believing everything you read, but at least be open to understanding; ADI has made mistakes, sadly Warbuck represented ADI when he made his, and ADI has apologized for events which weren't always Warbuck's actions.

Do I think ADI will change? Who knows, but one thing I know is an apology is better than no apology and at least it is a step. Doesn't mean they will change, but for me to automatically assume one-hundred percent they will NOT when they ARE making steps makes my biased concerns seem illegitimate. Time will tell, till then, this one step is better than no steps at all.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[Lazarus Grant]

[quote name='the masheen' date='11 April 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1271008113' post='2256432']
[size="1"]OK, let me start off by saying I called ADI home for about 250 days. Most of my OWF posts are defending ADI and applauding them on jobs well done. If you don't believe me check out any post regarding ADI besides this thread. Don't give me this "If it were any other alliance you'd be saying good show", because it was THIS post that just turned me off to ADI. I considered myself friends to ADI's members, but we're not here to examine the past, were examining the present. Can someone tell me where they are admitting they are wrong? It sounds to me like they just decided to blame their FRIEND Warbuck for everything, and then dodge any attempt at blame by saying things like, "I was in small government and didn't know". They aren't owning up to their mistakes. They decided to use their FRIEND Warbuck as a scapegoat. Warbuck just got ZI'd in the name of ADI and then they come out with this message apologizing to the people that did it. After all he's done for them (the individuals in ADI and I know them all personally), they've decided to kick him while he's down. They are throwing him under the bus and out into the cold and they're "apology" basically amounts to, "We're sorry Warbuck screwed up but it wasn't OUR faults." They aren't owning up to anything. So if they wanted to come out with an apology without specifically mentioning names or making up excuses to save their own skins, I would have come here with uproarious aplause. The manner in which this apology was carried out is most disgusting. They just backstabbed and scapegoated their friend. I am of the opinion that this is the worst possible thing that anyone can do to someone. This is just my warning to everyone. Deal and make relations with ADI if you want...I cant stop you, but from personal experiences with them, they clearly have no problems in casting their friends out in the cold for the wolves. How dare you say they had "the balls" to do it. They had the balls to place all the blame on their leader, founder, and FRIEND. What balls they have indeed.[/size]
[/quote]

Warbuck was one of my closest friends in the game. Many people, including myself did know what was happening. We agreed that a show of force was necessary at the time. That being said, we were successful in getting the member of TDO who was being harassing out of gov for a while. ADI was trying to make a show of force and it was out of a misguided sense of insecurity that somehow the closest allies of TDO might take out their frustrations on the newly formed ADI since the exodus of some of TDO's most talented member hurt them.

Paragraph 7 of the apology Shadeslayers09 posted needs to be clarified because it has caused so much damage. Yeah, we knew about it. I don't know who wrote that paragraph but it is just plain wrong. Not everyone knew, sure, but most higher gov members and founders certainly knew. Plans for an attack on TDO was thought to be a last resort if diplomacy failed.

That being said, I stand by the apology part of the OP. I do not, however, stand by the Warbuck bashing part.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Infidel Israeli' date='11 April 2010 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1271008239' post='2256433']
Reasons people are making fun of them:

A. The timing. After an alliance attacks them, they finally see they've done wrong? Is it really that they are sincere, or that they can't get away with it anymore?
[/quote]

The war brought these two alliances to speak with one another, which happens in war. It wasn't their numbers falling, it was the talks which resulted from the war. They were firm even when their numbers were falling, the talks changed everything; happens in every war.

[quote]
B. Mostly, people are condemning them not because they're apologizing, but because they're posting it on the OWF. Is a private channel apology not enough? They make a lot of OWF posts, and little of them need to be made.
[/quote]
Why are declarations public? Why are public apologies, public? Why are private matters discussed here? Because. That is how the political atmosphere has developed over the course of four years, which has a shade of grey. That shade of grey is for moments when some argue about its public appearance and when private matters should go public. An apology is an apology, arguing this, we should argue the last four years of public apologies. Since the war is relevant as to now, the result of the war and talks which exist because of the war have always been publicly announced; it just so happens this is an apology

Edited April 11, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[Kevin McDonald]

[quote name='Nathan Grant' date='11 April 2010 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1271010811' post='2256467']
That being said, I stand by the apology part of the OP. I do not, however, stand by the Warbuck bashing part.
[/quote]

It's amazing how you continue to set policy based on public opinion. Twice in the same thread now.

Just stop.

[Infidel Israeli]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='11 April 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1271010853' post='2256468']
The war brought these two alliances to speak with one another, which happens in war. It wasn't their numbers falling, it was the talks which resulted from the war. They were firm even when their numbers were falling, the talks changed everything; happens in every war.[/quote]

I'm not sure about that. I'm not saying it isn't possible. But I think they want the better PR and less trouble.

[quote]Why are declarations public? Why are public apologies, public? Why are private matters discussed here? Because. That is how the political atmosphere has developed over the course of four years, which has a shade of grey. That shade of grey is for moments when some argue about its public appearance and when private matters should go public. An apology is an apology, arguing this, we should argue the last four years of public apologies. Since the war is relevant as to now, the result of the war and talks which exist because of the war have always been publicly announced; it just so happens this is an apology
[/quote]

Declarations are public because they can effect treaty partners and chaining. Everyone can be effected from a DoW. I have no idea why public apologies exist. Private maters shouldn't exist here in my opinion. I seem to think more and more it's a PR thing considering the multitude of posts they make.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Infidel Israeli' date='11 April 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1271012015' post='2256477']
I'm not sure about that. I'm not saying it isn't possible. But I think they want the better PR and less trouble.



Declarations are public because they can effect treaty partners and chaining. Everyone can be effected from a DoW. I have no idea why public apologies exist. Private maters shouldn't exist here in my opinion. I seem to think more and more it's a PR thing considering the multitude of posts they make.
[/quote]
You would know if you're affected by an unannounced Dow: your allies who are attacked would contact you, etc. I admit, this is semantics, but public apologies have existed in this political climate and I do not necessarily agree ADI should be blamed for following precedence. It is good to see them apologize, outside parties such as myself who are uninvolved like to see apologies as well; it at least allows me to say to myself "Hey, at least they are trying now," rather than being uninformed and not knowing of their attempted progress. Allows me to be better informed for future arguments as precedents are always mentioned; thus, increasing your insight and knowledgeable credibility.

[Egwaterboy61]

[quote name='Infidel Israeli' date='11 April 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1271009492' post='2256443']
Never said they wouldn't win, just said they aren't getting out clean. I don't really know much of this new government to tell if they've really changed, so I base my opinions on the past until they prove me wrong in future action, instead of just this apology.

However, I respectfully disagree. To me, TDO and their close friends are the only alliances that needs to hear this. ADI has never cared about other's opinions, why put it on the OWF for everyone to see?
[/quote]

Well, I suppose what I am saying, is instead of saying "Lets beat these terrorist, they aren't right" they said "Hey, maybe we have made mistakes, and instead of being self-righteous we should listen to what they are saying." By saying the latter, and posting this apology, they have taken steps towards retribution for their past. This is the change I like to see.

As for the OWF, if they simply apologized, what would have changed? Nothing. Posting here gives people, like you and me, a chance to debate/discuss if they have really changed, how, and if their apology is truly sincere.

Not to mention when things involve rogue attacks or attacks at all, and concern multiple alliances, they should be brought to light for others to be aware of. This is also a statement about the conflict.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='10 April 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1270875906' post='2255197']
Oh my but this is hilarious.

Sorry, I mean "Good show! Good show!"

EDIT: I've just realized that the OP has an air of RyanGDI about it. Anyone else feel that?
[/quote]

I am pretty RyanGDI is leading Gremlins at the moment. You know TDO always seems be involved in things they should not be.

[mco119]

[quote name='The Big Bad' date='11 April 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1271013952' post='2256502']
I am pretty RyanGDI is leading Gremlins at the moment. You know TDO always seems be involved in things they should not be.
[/quote]


To hit again on a point you seem to be missing, TDO had absolutely nothing to do with this attack. The plan, the goals, the timing, all of it was 100% on us. I assure you that The Democratic Order was just as surprised as everybody else when we started to roll.


So far as the above mentioned goals of this attack go, one of the major ones was that ADI would see and understand its past political mistakes, then steer in a new direction. That is why we stopped our attacks before wiping them out entirely, which would certainly have happened over the additional 4 weeks of war we had planned; We let them go because we believe in second chances.

That being said, although I consider the two government members we dealt with the most, Shadeslayer and Hamil, to be sincere in their wish to not repeat past mistakes, I have a hard time buying into this for ADO on the whole. For starters, after fighting a devastating war that caused 11 nations to leave their alliance, including several government members, and left many others in ruins, what did ADI do? They appointed a new leader that has, historically anyway, shown himself to be a close supporter of the man most responsible for ADI's current problems, John Warbuck. Even now Nathan Grant defends Warbuck, admits that he agreed initially with the proposed attack on TDO, and seems totally clueless regarding ADI's current situation.

There is also, if I might be so bold, a tone of arrogance presented by Grant that is similar to our not so beloved lost friend Warbuck. The fact that ADI would come out claiming to want change, right as they elect a leader that is as close to Warbuck as they can find, is very troubling. Nathan Grant, a note to you personally: when people say you should avoid the OWF, LISTEN TO THEM. You seem to have the same "We're going to do whatever we want!" kind of attitude that Warbuck did. It would be wise for you to ask how that worked out for him, then follow those thoughts to their conclusion.

Finally, I suppose I just question the sincerity of ADI across the board. They say they want change, so they elect Lord Tri. Then, following a war that should have convinced them more than ever of the need to change, what do they do? Right back to a Warbuck groupie. Lord Tri enters peace talks. He tells us that he "will never leave ADI, and will fight to the death!" That "if ADI goes down, he goes down," and that "he loves ADI too much to ever see it fail." We agree on tentative peace terms, and Tri agrees to take them to his government. Two full days pass with no word, and then we find out that not only were the peace terms never even MENTIONED to ADI, but Tri has flat out left the alliance. So much for honesty and the giving of one's word. We enter peace talks with other government members, who assure us that nobody in ADI ever knew about the attacks but Warbuck. We're highly skeptical of that, but things continue. This thread is started. First it is claimed people didn't know about Warbuck's plans, then Nathan Grants admits most did. First it seems okay to denounce Warbuck, then Grant says it isn't. Initially things are humble and sincere, then ADI's leader, with Warbuckesque flair, expresses they will "keep posting as much as they'd like on the OWF, no matter what anybody thinks." I suppose my point is that ADI doesn't seem to be able to tell up from down, or top from bottom. Sorry, ADI, but at this moment I am very skeptical of you...

Fianlly, Nathan Grant, you claim to not agree with paragraph 7 of the initial post, correct? This whole document should have been approved by you and your government BEFORE it was ever posted. So did you agree with it then, and now don't because it is unpopular? Or did your government members post this document without their leaders knowledge? It's one or the other.



Edited to add: apologizing WAS the right thing to do, and I don't mean to take away from that. I question whether real change will come to your alliance, but I do hope for it. In any event, each long journey starts with one step, and it appears you've tried to make that movement forward this week. So congrats on that...now just don't drop the ball

Edited April 11, 2010 by mco119

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='claphamsa' date='11 April 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1270950006' post='2255993']
its ok freddy not like anyone here respects you!
[/quote]

Oh man, where did I put that flashing "Iceburn" .gif

Who are you again?

[Infidel Israeli]

[quote name='Ejayrazz' date='11 April 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1271012696' post='2256486']
You would know if you're affected by an unannounced Dow: your allies who are attacked would contact you, etc. I admit, this is semantics, but public apologies have existed in this political climate and I do not necessarily agree ADI should be blamed for following precedence. It is good to see them apologize, outside parties such as myself who are uninvolved like to see apologies as well; it at least allows me to say to myself "Hey, at least they are trying now," rather than being uninformed and not knowing of their attempted progress. Allows me to be better informed for future arguments as precedents are always mentioned; thus, increasing your insight and knowledgeable credibility.
[/quote]

Kind of. I'm thinking about the big things though. Like when NpO attacked \m/. You knew this would get big, because you saw it on OWF and everyone started asking their allies how they could be tied in. But had it not been on OWF, I don't know if the communication would be there. They didn't attack my allies, they attacked an ally of an ally of etc etc. Though I can see why you might want to see it. I just personally do not.

[quote name='Egwaterboy61' date='11 April 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1271013610' post='2256495']
Well, I suppose what I am saying, is instead of saying "Lets beat these terrorist, they aren't right" they said "Hey, maybe we have made mistakes, and instead of being self-righteous we should listen to what they are saying." By saying the latter, and posting this apology, they have taken steps towards retribution for their past. This is the change I like to see.

As for the OWF, if they simply apologized, what would have changed? Nothing. Posting here gives people, like you and me, a chance to debate/discuss if they have really changed, how, and if their apology is truly sincere.

Not to mention when things involve rogue attacks or attacks at all, and concern multiple alliances, they should be brought to light for others to be aware of. This is also a statement about the conflict.
[/quote]




lol I just don't think it's right that just now, after being attacked for their actions they apologize. mco119's post explains a lot more depth, i'll just give it to him on why i'm skeptical. Though like he said, I hope this does mean they've changed.

the OWF thing, us debating on whether they've changed doesn't mean we can really tell. I can win the argument and still be wrong.

I'm fine with the statement about their war, just could care less to see the apology to an uninvolved party. (whether it has to do with them or not) Again, it's just my opinion.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Infidel Israeli