Unimportant Announcement

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='King William IV' date='22 February 2010 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1266822711' post='2196808']
I already read it and still disagree with it. What you will say wont change my mind to think that you are taking just under 1/6 of an alliances tech then crippling their tech market on 30 nations for a month. To be honest I just think that you are trying to do more than get justified reparations.
[/quote]
As I have previously stated, that is your opinion. Mine is different.

Edit: I also wanted to clarify that the Reps are not because they were rude - the reps were for rebuilding - the fact that we revoked our offer of no reparations is based on the fact that they were rude. (Keep in mind that reps were on the table in the beginning, and then they were taken off.)

Edited February 22, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[nutkase]

o/ Legion

saddened to see Sparta, Asgaard and Amazon Nation taking reps, thought better of them to be honest.

I give kudos to Brigade and The Circle of Icarus with paying for their reps.

[LiquidMercury]

Glad to see the likes of lonewolfe are continuing terrible peace negotiations even now (see lonewolfe's behavior during the Karma war in another terrible set of peace negotiations). I for one am completely disappointed in this. This is coming from someone who has sat in the seat of peace negotiations....lots of them, Thrawn.

As always I encourage all to give white peace, and will of course continue to give white peace in any thing I have a direct say over.

I will take the time to o/ Legion, The Brigade, and The Circle of Icarus.

Edited February 22, 2010 by LiquidMercury

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='22 February 2010 - 06:56 AM' timestamp='1266821784' post='2196782']
I've destroyed entire alliances for less. [/quote]

You and Billrow should stop and chat sometime.

[quote]
Not really, but yeah... you're over-simplifying the matter.[/quote]

Here's a snippit from my convo with Hyperion:

<Hyperion[Sparta]> they are getting reps because they are !@#$@#$ a*******. that's why.

[quote]
We were fine with offering no Reps to Legion at a point, but they did not act maturely or reasonably at all towards us throughout the entire conflict, thereby testing our patience. Feel free to debate based on your opinions, but those are just that: opinions.
[/quote]

So this is timeline as I see it (as no one has corrected me yet) 1) You were initially ticked off because of the miscommunication incident, and aghast when they cleared up the miscommunication 2) Some of legion's membership did not act maturely and trash talked about you guys publically, occasionally going into OOC, which [i]surely[/i] represent the whole alliance.

Now, those are facts, and no where do they point in the direction that Legion "deserved" these reps in any sense of the word, especially since according the Hyperion it's due to unsavory OOC comments made by Legion members

Edited February 22, 2010 by FreddieMercury

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='22 February 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1266822041' post='2196791']
Glad to know people who didn't like them still don't.

I am glad that people who do like them still do!
[/quote]
Reputation damage is not always immediately obvious, look at the NPO. up until the declaration of the Karma war they had all the outward signs of a well respected alliance, but that all changed overnight.

[Pearl]

[quote name='King William IV' date='22 February 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1266822335' post='2196801']
My only complaint is this is 500 more tech than IRON paid for it's Karma War sins. Just seems a bit much to me, although I don't think trash talking if not taken to far, and yo momma is never too far IMO, is cause for reparations.

Edit: Had to double check and it would have only been double (missed the 2500 to 6 alliances) My apologies
[/quote]

Currently Legion assisted IRON. During Karma, IRON was assisted the NPO.

I think that a little bit goes to show how generous the reps are.

IRON didnt act like a smuck -----> they didnt get much reps.

Legion govt acted like complete smucks -----> they didnt get much reps.


Legion could have gotten off with lighter terms, but they blew that opportunity as has been repeated in this thread multiple times.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Pearl

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='22 February 2010 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1266823257' post='2196834']
Reputation damage is not always immediately obvious, look at the NPO. up until the declaration of the Karma war they had all the outward signs of a well respected alliance, but that all changed overnight.
[/quote]


I chuckled, they hatred that was flowing around bob for years was not a hint then?

[Pearl]

You know how it is. 20K tech in reps. Sparta will go down in history as the most ebil alliance evar.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='22 February 2010 - 07:18 AM' timestamp='1266823129' post='2196827']
Glad to see the likes of lonewolfe are continuing terrible peace negotiations even now (see lonewolfe's behavior during the Karma war in another terrible set of peace negotiations). I for one am completely disappointed in this. This is coming from someone who has sat in the seat of peace negotiations....lots of them, Thrawn.

As always I encourage all to give white peace, and will of course continue to give white peace in any thing I have a direct say over.

I will take the time to o/ Legion, The Brigade, and The Circle of Icarus.
[/quote]


Yes, yes, I know every time you see me comment, or see me in a channel you have this desire to prove your "superiority." I have been playing this game for quite some time, I am not intimidated by your professed morality or ethics, or your style of game-play, or your influence.

Nicer terms were offered, refused and then changed. It happens, attacking my friend and alliance leader will not earn you any clout from where I am concerned.

If you have something to say see me in private, and tell me your problems, and explain exactly what LW did.

[shahenshah]

I'm saddened to see the reps, I know Legion will come out stronger.

o\ Legion.
Ave Legio!

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='Pearl' date='22 February 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1266823601' post='2196855']
Currently Legion assisted IRON. During Karma, IRON was assisted the NPO.

I think that a little bit goes to show how generous the reps are.

IRON didnt act like a smuck -----> they didnt get much reps.
[/quote]

IRON didn't get much reps because the collective forces barring RoK and R.O.C.K. agreed to white peace for IRON as was the honorable and right thing to do. I truly hope this continued trend of people demanding reps of alliances that honored treaties goes by the wayside. Personally I would like to see reps in general be done away with, with the exception of wiping all treaties, I feel that one term allows some alliances to take the opportunity to distance themselves from their previous allies where they felt obligated to always be treatied with them; see they're bad at breaking up so someone gives them the easy way out. If they still like each other after the separation they resign, if they truly weren't meant to be, they go by the wayside, hopefully rebuilding their friendship in other ways while not necessarily being tied by paper, see Gremlins, see (at least in my mind) TOP/FoK relationship.

[mhawk]

[quote name='Pearl' date='21 February 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1266823971' post='2196867']
You know how it is. 20K tech in reps. Sparta will go down in history as the most ebil alliance evar.
[/quote]
You should hear the grief we got over 3600 tech from athens

[King William IV]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='22 February 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1266822981' post='2196820']
As I have previously stated, that is your opinion. Mine is different.

Edit: I also wanted to clarify that the Reps are not because they were rude - the reps were for rebuilding - the fact that we revoked our offer of no reparations is based on the fact that they were rude. (Keep in mind that reps were on the table in the beginning, and then they were taken off.)
[/quote]

Your argument here contradicts itself. The reps we for being rude, you are going to USE them for rebuilding.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='FreddieMercury' date='22 February 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1266823232' post='2196832']
You and Billrow should stop and chat sometime. [/quote] *swoosh*


[quote]
Here's a snippit from my convo with Hyperion:

<Hyperion[Sparta]> they are getting reps because they are !@#$@#$ a*******. that's why.[/quote] There is a reason Hyperion was not tasked with procuring peace from Legion.

[quote]So this is timeline as I see it (as no one has corrected me yet) 1) You were initially ticked off because of the miscommunication incident, and aghast when they cleared up the miscommunication 2) Some of legion's membership did not act maturely and trash talked about you guys publically, occasionally going into OOC, which [i]surely[/i] represent the whole alliance.[/quote]You forgot the part where Sparta decided to go from 600 mil in reps to no reps at all. Then there was the mis-communication incident, as well as blatant disrespect from Legion Government and Membership. Then they agreed to pay us Reps and Surrender.

[quote]Now, those are facts, and no where do they point in the direction that Legion "deserved" these reps in any sense of the word, especially since according the Hyperion it's due to unsavory OOC comments made by Legion members
[/quote]It's not like the didn't do any damage that needed repairs, right?

[Lincongrad]

EDIT: Never mind. Misunderstood.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Lincongrad

[Wilhelm the Demented]

[quote name='King William IV' date='22 February 2010 - 02:35 AM' timestamp='1266824125' post='2196875']
Your argument here contradicts itself. The reps we for being rude, you are going to USE them for rebuilding.
[/quote]
No, the reparations were re-instated because they were rude. We showed them kindness and they spat in our face. If they had simply declined and stated that they would stick with their Allies, I'd be in a better temperament - but they couldn't make up their minds, and decided to take advantage of a mistake and use it to drag our name through the dirt.

[Wilhelm the Demented]

EDIT: He misunderstood.

Edited February 22, 2010 by wilhelm the demented

[obscurus]

Pretty hefty terms.
Good luck rebuilding.

Edited February 22, 2010 by obscurus

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='22 February 2010 - 01:34 AM' timestamp='1266824047' post='2196869']
Yes, yes, I know every time you see me comment, or see me in a channel you have this desire to prove your "superiority." I have been playing this game for quite some time, I am not intimidated by your professed morality or ethics, or your style of game-play, or your influence.

Nicer terms were offered, refused and then changed. It happens, attacking my friend and alliance leader will not earn you any clout from where I am concerned.

If you have something to say see me in private, and tell me your problems, and explain exactly what LW did.
[/quote]

You seem to mistake my thoughts on your worth. I have seen you once in a channel (the other day) and now this. I have no clue who you are outside of either of those instances and it has nothing to do with a desire to show "superiority" over anyone. If I see something wrong or something I disagree with I point it out as has always been my way of doing things. So I do apologize if you feel as though I target you, I simply respond to what I see as wrong. When you say that it's easy to say things if you're not the one having to make the decision, as if people here have never been in peace terms, and have never simply offered up white peace, then I take issue with that. As many have.

Yes nicer terms were offered, Legion, being the good ally they were, decided to not just take the white peace easy out. Amazingly IRON was offered white peace after 1 week during Karma, refused for the same reason, and was then again offered white peace at a later point in time by almost the entire set of alliances against them. So though it may be the norm, in the past, don't hide behind that as history also shows that honorable and proper war etiquette can be abided by even in the most chaotic and destructive of times. I challenge you, Thrawn, to use your current seat of "power" to live up to the past examples set forth before you, and drop the Legion reps. Declare white peace. For your honor, for their mercy, and for the betterment of the future in terms of how wars are played out and ended.

My regards to LW, if you care to know the history/story behind it all without carrying it out on here for the sake of his reputation (as it's not my style to disseminate people on here) feel free to contact me via PM.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='LiquidMercury' date='22 February 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1266824959' post='2196904']
You seem to mistake my thoughts on your worth. I have seen you once in a channel (the other day) and now this. I have no clue who you are outside of either of those instances and it has nothing to do with a desire to show "superiority" over anyone. If I see something wrong or something I disagree with I point it out as has always been my way of doing things. So I do apologize if you feel as though I target you, I simply respond to what I see as wrong. When you say that it's easy to say things if you're not the one having to make the decision, as if people here have never been in peace terms, and have never simply offered up white peace, then I take issue with that. As many have.

Yes nicer terms were offered, Legion, being the good ally they were, decided to not just take the white peace easy out. Amazingly IRON was offered white peace after 1 week during Karma, refused for the same reason, and was then again offered white peace at a later point in time by almost the entire set of alliances against them. So though it may be the norm, in the past, don't hide behind that as history also shows that honorable and proper war etiquette can be abided by even in the most chaotic and destructive of times. I challenge you, Thrawn, to use your current seat of "power" to live up to the past examples set forth before you, and drop the Legion reps. Declare white peace. For your honor, for their mercy, and for the betterment of the future in terms of how wars are played out and ended.

My regards to LW, if you care to know the history/story behind it all without carrying it out on here for the sake of his reputation (as it's not my style to disseminate people on here) feel free to contact me via PM.
[/quote]

My honor is in tact as far as I can tell, as is that of Asgaard. We have had a few more interactions than that if I remember correctly on these boards and I seem to recall in IRC while I was at TTK though I may be mistaken after all my logs from before December got deleted, but I don't really care, but if you are going to bring charges of some kind against LW then you bring them to me, I don't seek to have my friend's name's tarnished, nor to I think you have anything compelling.

Also, I will not dissent from the course of action outlined in this thread. The surrender terms were decided upon by The Legion, Sparta, Asgaard etc. This means we take whatever hatred will come of them as a consequence; but for us to "suddenly take a different stand" we would be throwing those who fought alongside us under the bus as well from reputation standpoint. If I am in the peace negotiation process in the future I will act how I feel is right at that time. In this instance it is not my place to publicly question and my concerns (if any) will be aired in private where they belong, if not taken into consideration then there are other means with which I can act.

[LiquidMercury]

[quote name='commander thrawn' date='22 February 2010 - 02:06 AM' timestamp='1266825985' post='2196948']
My honor is in tact as far as I can tell, as is that of Asgaard. We have had a few more interactions than that if I remember correctly on these boards and I seem to recall in IRC while I was at TTK though I may be mistaken after all my logs from before December got deleted, but I don't really care, but if you are going to bring charges of some kind against LW then you bring them to me, I don't seek to have my friend's name's tarnished, nor to I think you have anything compelling.

Also, I will not dissent from the course of action outlined in this thread. The surrender terms were decided upon by The Legion, Sparta, Asgaard etc. This means we take whatever hatred will come of them as a consequence; but for us to "suddenly take a different stand" we would be throwing those who fought alongside us under the bus as well from reputation standpoint. If I am in the peace negotiation process in the future I will act how I feel is right at that time. In this instance it is not my place to publicly question and my concerns (if any) will be aired in private where they belong, if not taken into consideration then there are other means with which I can act.
[/quote]

As I said, I do not recall any other interactions with you other then the last two days and I am not attempting to smear you or anything of the like. I apologize if you feel that is the case.

As far as the LW scenario goes here's the tl:dr of it all:
How LW managed ACF during the Karma war and went about on tirades of wanting to demand reps for very very minimal engagement, as well as continuously trying to remind anyone that would listen to him that "he was his own boss" and that I/Archon were not his viceroy etc. when it was stated well in advance that we had no intention of acting as such, got tiresome and old. Out of the multitude of alliances and people that I spoke with/dealt with on a consistent level during the Karma war, it took quite a bit for me to actually be irritated enough to remember someone from an alliance I was not allied to/wasn't a pre-existing major alliance (see micro-alliance level). This is my issue with LW. Every instance thereafter in my dealings with him has been of an ill nature and childish in my eyes. This is coming from someone who generally leaves things as it is and doesn't hold grudges (I mean heck, I'm admin on the ex-hegemony boards now and I actually helped GGA/TPF/Echelon/MCXA/IRON and various other parties plan wars on their side when I just came from blowing them all up).

As far as your "throwing your allies under the bus" bit, well no. Amazingly enough, what you speak of has indeed happened in the past so it would not be without precedence. "Waiving of reps" post-signing of peace has happened countless times and amazingly, always leads to positive PR for the alliance waiving the reps.

Heiarchy of reps in regards to positive PR

5. NPO reps (bad bottom tier never do)
4. Bogus reps (monetary only)
3. Bogus reps followed by a waive of reps
2. Paying for reps i.e. tech deals
1. White peace

3 and 2 could be considered interchangeable depending on the audience.

Since I do not forsee you changing your mind by this (especially after my explanation of the events during Karma which generated so much ill will towards LW, which you will undoubtedly see as a smear campaign by me) I shal leave this with simply those thoughts as I have presented, wishing you the best of luck in any future decisions you have that could be beneficial to all. Adieu.

[KagetheSecond]

Man.. I really hope we get this many responses when Sparta surrenders to us. Just ask TOP what kind of draconian terms we have in store for you. FARK has beer reviews, we have lip synching. Be prepared.

[King William IV]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='22 February 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1266824409' post='2196887']
No, the reparations were re-instated because they were rude. We showed them kindness and they spat in our face. If they had simply declined and stated that they would stick with their Allies, I'd be in a better temperament - but they couldn't make up their minds, and decided to take advantage of a mistake and use it to drag our name through the dirt.
[/quote]

If they are reinstated because of then the are FOR that reason, I don't think I can make that anymore clear. They also did not spit in your face, they were in a frantic motion to fix something and acted a little rash. For that last little bit of gold you posted you need to re-read the fake surrender/Legion Response threads, a lot of the negativity came to you from alliances not named "The Legion."

[commander thrawn]

LM I said see me in private. Classy to post here.

But also, congrats on laying out how you think things should be.

Edited February 22, 2010 by commander thrawn

[shahenshah]

[quote name='wilhelm the demented' date='22 February 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1266824409' post='2196887']
No, the reparations were re-instated because they were [u][b]rude.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

Does Sparta's Govt share the same assessment of this member of Sparta?