Death Before Dishonour

[SWAT128]

I do hope the GLOF comes to it's senses and realizes that it's evidence for this war is shoddy at best. There is nothing to gain from continuing this war and I don't see how prolonging it will turn out well for GLOF.

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1266285424' post='2183927']
So you declared war on your MDP partner over a possibly faked screenshot regarding an individual that went rogue anyway?

Wow, that's actually [i]so[/i] much more reasonable.
[/quote]

you realize that when shown that you're wrong the only thing you could come up with ammounts to nothing more than "lol, my argument fell apart so... no u."

The individual went rogue because Veneke lied to get him kicked out of an alliance. Notice that when he went rogue the only person he went rogue on was the person that lied to get him kicked out of the Lodge.

Do you honestly expect me to believe that you, Chron, would not do the same if somebody lied and got you kicked out of an alliance, and you were in range of that person?

[Heft]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='15 February 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1266285709' post='2183940']
you realize that when shown that you're wrong the only thing you could come up with ammounts to nothing more than "lol, my argument fell apart so... no u."
[/quote]

I laughed. Vocally. Also outwardly.

[Gopherbashi]

[quote name='Bower3aj' date='15 February 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1266285357' post='2183924']
And see this is just where you are blatantly wrong. But really, if you really refuse to accept that this isn't the case then I would be happy to point out the literally dozens of times where we say over and over again that our DoW is the Screen Shots given to us by Veneke, not the Screen Shot of an alleged Veneke post. Accept it or I seriously will go and find every single example posted in this announcement, in our announcement, and in the peace talk logs that show that this is what we have said [u][b][i]the entire time[/i][/b][/u].
[/quote]
You declared war on your own ally because they gave you a faked screenshot?

Because I've only got one FOK guy on me right now, and I'd love some more opponents. We can quickly sign a treaty and I'll draw up something in paint and send it to you within the hour.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Gopherbashi

[jer]

The way GLoF has conducted itself throughout this affair is nothing short of disgusting and I am sad to say that any respect I once had for the alliance and it's leadership has been completely and utterly destroyed as a result. If this isn't rectified soon it will likely never return, very poor show.

[Bower3aj]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='15 February 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1266285925' post='2183945']
You declared war on your own ally because they gave you a faked screenshot?

Because I've only got one FOK guy on me right now, and I'd love some more opponents. We can quickly sign a treaty and I'll draw up something in paint and send it to you within the hour.
[/quote]

I'll admit I laughed. More because you would want to fight the Lodge again after Karma then anything else. But still, thanks for putting a smile on my face

[Xiphosis]

This is a ridiculous showing, GLOF. I had no experience with you prior to this, but how you've handled this has spoken volumes.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Xiphosis

[Aurion]

Wow. Just wow.

I think I'll just echo Fish's comments about how well Thunder Strike handled himself - I wouldn't have been able to put up with [i]that[/i] for more than five minutes, tops.

Best of luck getting GLoF to see what's right in front of their noses, 57th.

[Xiphosis]

To the GLOF members in here fervently and understandably defending themselves, you'd be better serving your alliance and yourselves by being reasonable. Simply denying everything won't achieve anything when the evidence is so clearly against it.

Simple questions to answer:

Why attack an ally over an allegation they made about a member of yours who decided to go rogue anyway?

Why approach the situation with inherent distrust for a treaty partner?

Why posture in peace talks when you were allied to the people involved two days ago?

[agafaba]

It was the leader of the 57th who sent fake screen shots to GLOF to have a member ejected... I have seen much worse CBs in my time then this one.
If by some odd chance the jpeg did have varying levels of distortion from one IP to the next it is a fluke, and you can hardly blame GLOF for assuming it wasnt.

My personal opinion is that all the pictures are fake, still leaving 57th in a much worse light then GLOF, however I am still hoping something can be reached between the two of them asap.

[evilsquirrel]

[quote name='Aurion' date='15 February 2010 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1266286606' post='2183973']
Wow. Just wow.

I think I'll just echo Fish's comments about how well Thunder Strike handled himself - I wouldn't have been able to put up with [i]that[/i] for more than five minutes, tops.

Best of luck getting GLoF to see what's right in front of their noses, 57th.
[/quote]

YOU GUYS ARE FRIGGIN AWESOME!!!!!

Edited February 16, 2010 by evilsquirrel

[TehChron]

[quote name='agafaba' date='16 February 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1266287392' post='2183999']
It was the leader of the 57th who sent fake screen shots to GLOF to have a member ejected... I have seen much worse CBs in my time then this one.
If by some odd chance the jpeg did have varying levels of distortion from one IP to the next it is a fluke, and you can hardly blame GLOF for assuming it wasnt.

My personal opinion is that all the pictures are fake, [b]still leaving 57th in a much worse light then GLOF,[/b] however I am still hoping something can be reached between the two of them asap.
[/quote]Yeah except the part where 57th declared on GLoF over the [i]possibility[/i] of faked screenshots OHWAI-

Seriously, GLoF did a very, very, [i]very[/i] stupid and dishonorable thing. I don't seem to understand why folks are trying to justify attacking an MDP partner over something that could have been handled by a half-hour conversation and some fact checking.

[Roosterton]

[quote name='agafaba' date='15 February 2010 - 06:29 PM' timestamp='1266287392' post='2183999']
It was the leader of the 57th who sent fake screen shots to GLOF to have a member ejected... I have seen much worse CBs in my time then this one.
If by some odd chance the jpeg did have varying levels of distortion from one IP to the next it is a fluke, and you can hardly blame GLOF for assuming it wasnt.

My personal opinion is that all the pictures are fake, still leaving 57th in a much worse light then GLOF, however I am still hoping something can be reached between the two of them asap.
[/quote]

Really, the problem isn't with the CB. The problem is that they declared on an ally, taking only 42 minutes to try and contact their ally's leader, and with no success, cancelled their treaty on a whim and attacked. Another problem is that they didn't see the glaring inconsistencies with the screenshot which was sent to them as "evidence" that the 57th was spying, which they obviously would have seen if they'd taken a minute to sort thing out with Ven when he WASN'T afk. (That's what E-mails are for, y'know?)

But of course, now that this didn't happen, GLoF is playing stupid and pretending to not see the glaring inconsistencies, because they know that they've @#%!&$ themselves by attacking.

The way they decided to hit while we were engaged with TORN and WFF is just a massive reflection of their cowardly attitude - sure, we were in Defcon1 with military improvements, but all allies are engaged, and it's now 3.5mil NS alliance against us.

[s]You know what, this thread does nothing but make me want to ZI GLoF members more, some more than others.[/s]

Anyway, I doubt GLoF will get any treaty partners for awhile after this. Also, I'll send a magical cyber cookie to any alliance which [s]decides to be overly honorable and give GLoF a taste of their own medicine[/s] aids us militarily/ecomonimcally. I promise.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Roosterton

[NoFish]

You know, with all the negativity in this thread I feel a need to mention some of the good things that have come out of it. It just warms my heart to see enemies like NSO and GOD, embroiled in a war against one another, put aside our differences in calling out GLoF on their utter !@#$%^&*.

[evilsquirrel]

[quote name='NoFish' date='15 February 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1266288114' post='2184032']
You know, with all the negativity in this thread I feel a need to mention some of the good things that have come out of it. It just warms my heart to see enemies like NSO and GOD, embroiled in a war against one another, put aside our differences in calling out GLoF on their utter !@#$%^&*.
[/quote]

Kinda gives you the warm and fuzzies dont it?

[agafaba]

[quote name='Chron' date='16 February 2010 - 02:40 AM' timestamp='1266288056' post='2184028']
Yeah except the part where 57th declared on GLoF over the [i]possibility[/i] of faked screenshots OHWAI-

Seriously, GLoF did a very, very, [i]very[/i] stupid and dishonorable thing. I don't seem to understand why folks are trying to justify attacking an MDP partner over something that could have been handled by a half-hour conversation and some fact checking.
[/quote]

[s]I have never seen anyone declare on an alliance because said alliance [b]received[/b] fake screenshots, so I do not understand your first statement. [/s]
Apparently I have reading issues, because the second time I read the statement it made more sense. dont mind me >_>

Unless you are referring to the first 2 pictures, in that case I cant help but laugh at the thought of alliances asking for admin access so they can take screen shots of IP addresses just in case the JPEG compression happens to work differently on their forums then most.

The first 2 shots were fake by any reasonable standards, and GLOF acted on it with the knowledge of another screen shot that turned out to be fake.

I can only conclude that you think so highly of GLOF that you expected them to go to such extreme measures as to try to recreate the screenshots several times in comparison to the originals. GLOF is only human...



@rooster
That was only 1/3 of the evidence they provided though, personally if I found that Pen had sent shopped photos to Bushido showing that one of our members was a spy I would be quite upset myself. Add to that if it was a past GLOF member and I would livid, as that just looks like an act taken out of spite. Would I wait longer to approach them over it... I dont know, and I pray that I never will.

Edited February 16, 2010 by agafaba

[TehChron]

[quote name='agafaba' date='16 February 2010 - 02:55 AM' timestamp='1266288929' post='2184081']
I have never seen anyone declare on an alliance because said alliance [b]received[/b] fake screenshots, so I do not understand your first statement. [/quote][quote name='Bower3aj' date='16 February 2010 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1266285357' post='2183924']
And see this is just where you are blatantly wrong. But really, if you really refuse to accept that this isn't the case then I would be happy to point out the literally dozens of times where we say over and over again that our DoW is the Screen Shots given to us by Veneke, not the Screen Shot of an alleged Veneke post.
[/quote]
Well, it helps that I actually bothered to pay attention to the conversation.

[quote]The first 2 shots were fake by any reasonable standards, and GLOF acted on it with the knowledge of another screen shot that turned out to be fake.

[/quote]After only 40 minutes or so waiting on a response from someone who wasn't around at the time.

Clearly GLoF spared no effort in checking the reliability of their intel, given the weighty nature of the matter.

[quote name='agafaba' date='16 February 2010 - 02:55 AM' timestamp='1266288929' post='2184081']
Add to that if it was a past GLOF member and I would livid, as that just looks like an act taken out of spite. Would I wait longer to approach them over it... I dont know, and I pray that I never will.
[/quote]
Yeah, but would you declare war over it? Thats kind of the main issue here. Although I'm a bit amused to see you sidestep it once you realize what your justification is logically untenable.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Chron

[jerry wagner]

[quote name='NoFish' date='15 February 2010 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1266288114' post='2184032']
You know, with all the negativity in this thread I feel a need to mention some of the good things that have come out of it. It just warms my heart to see enemies like NSO and GOD, embroiled in a war against one another, put aside our differences in calling out GLoF on their utter !@#$%^&*.
[/quote]

It is certainly amusing.... perhaps that is a statement in of itself?

[NoFish]

[quote name='agafaba' date='15 February 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1266288929' post='2184081']
I have never seen anyone declare on an alliance because said alliance [b]received[/b] fake screenshots, so I do not understand your first statement. Unless you are referring to the first 2 pictures, in that case I cant help but laugh at the thought of alliances asking for admin access so they can take screen shots of IP addresses just in case the JPEG compression happens to work differently on their forums then most.

The first 2 shots were fake by any reasonable standards, and GLOF acted on it with the knowledge of another screen shot that turned out to be fake.

I can only conclude that you think so highly of GLOF that you expected them to go to such extreme measures as to try to recreate the screenshots several times in comparison to the originals. GLOF is only human...
[/quote]
Or we [s]think[/s] [b]thought[/b] so highly of GLoF that we expected them to, you know, talk to their ally before canceling the treaty, ignoring the cancellation clause, and declaring war on them while they and all of their allies are in the middle of another war.

You know, come to think of it, it's [i]awfully[/i] convenient that GLoF somehow managed to stay out of a war when almost every one of their allies was involved in it. Almost as though they intentionally kept themselves unoccupied in case something came up. Now, unlike certain alliances, I'm not one to toss accusations without evidence... but it certainly makes you think, huh?

Edited February 16, 2010 by NoFish

[agafaba]

[quote name='Chron' date='16 February 2010 - 03:01 AM' timestamp='1266289303' post='2184102']
Well, it helps that I actually bothered to pay attention to the conversation.

After only 40 minutes or so waiting on a response from someone who wasn't around at the time.

Clearly GLoF spared no effort in checking the reliability of their intel, given the weighty nature of the matter.


Yeah, but would you declare war over it? Thats kind of the main issue here. Although I'm a bit amused to see you sidestep it once you realize what your justification is logically untenable.
[/quote]
I took your comment incorrectly, thought you were saying something else.

I assume the 40 minutes or so was after they checked the screenshots, its not like they received the 3rd 40 minutes before they declared.
The shots look fake.. what more can you expect? Under close inspection they are fake in every way a fake would be, and it has yet to be proven that they are anything otherwise. Currently people are claiming that the JPEG caused different distortion over the most important area in a fluke. They are using an unlikely situation to debunk physical evidence, hardly a game breaker if you ask me.

Would I declare war? Well that depends on how angry I was, how prepared my alliance was and how active I could be at the time. As Bushido is semi-prepared due to the possibility of us being involved in the global conflict we are ready, and I might have just declared like GLOF did. In peace time I would require a few extra days to have everyone prepared, and in that time things might change.

[quote]You know, come to think of it, it's awfully convenient that GLoF somehow managed to stay out of a war when almost every one of their allies was involved in it. Almost as though they intentionally kept themselves unoccupied in case something came up. Now, unlike certain alliances, I'm not one to toss accusations without evidence... but it certainly makes you think, huh? [/quote]

They were preparing to get involved, when suddenly they had something closer to home to deal with. Its all speculation regardless of what either of us say but GLOF doesnt seem like the kind of alliance that would do this from any previous experience.

Edited February 16, 2010 by agafaba

[TehChron]

[quote name='agafaba' date='16 February 2010 - 03:14 AM' timestamp='1266290097' post='2184150']
I took your comment incorrectly, thought you were saying something else.

I assume the 40 minutes or so was after they checked the screenshots, its not like they received the 3rd 40 minutes before they declared.
The shots look fake.. what more can you expect? Under close inspection they are fake in every way a fake would be, and it has yet to be proven that they are anything otherwise. Currently people are claiming that the JPEG caused different distortion over the most important area in a fluke. They are using an unlikely situation to debunk physical evidence, hardly a game breaker if you ask me.[/quote] Yeah...You dont have much of a sense for irony, do you?

[quote]Would I declare war? Well that depends on how angry I was, how prepared my alliance was and how active I could be at the time. As Bushido is semi-prepared due to the possibility of us being involved in the global conflict we are ready, and I might have just declared like GLOF did. In peace time I would require a few extra days to have everyone prepared, and in that time things might change.
[/quote]
Oh, I get it. You really do think it's alright to declare war on your MDP ally over a possible (unconfirmed at the time, and still not really confirmed now) sending of a faulty screenshot.

Not limit it to just canceling a treaty, but outright attacking while ignoring the cancellation clause in the MDP. Yeah, I think your alliance should be pretty pleased you aren't in a position to make that call.

[tarman2010]

[quote name='agafaba' date='15 February 2010 - 09:14 PM' timestamp='1266290097' post='2184150']
I took your comment incorrectly, thought you were saying something else.

I assume the 40 minutes or so was after they checked the screenshots, its not like they received the 3rd 40 minutes before they declared.
The shots look fake.. what more can you expect? Under close inspection they are fake in every way a fake would be, and it has yet to be proven that they are anything otherwise. Currently people are claiming that the JPEG caused different distortion over the most important area in a fluke. They are using an unlikely situation to debunk physical evidence, hardly a game breaker if you ask me.

Would I declare war? Well that depends on how angry I was, how prepared my alliance was and how active I could be at the time. As Bushido is semi-prepared due to the possibility of us being involved in the global conflict we are ready, and I might have just declared like GLOF did. In peace time I would require a few extra days to have everyone prepared, and in that time things might change.
[/quote]

However fake the first screen shot may look, you're forgetting the possibility that the entire row with the funky distortion is in a different font due to the JackieChan account being logged in as an anonymous user. I'm not technical enough to know whether this along with the image being a JPEG could cause the distortion seen, but I think that in itself plus the fact that 57th and GloF were allies should have been enough to merit talking to 57th before attacking.

[Heft]

[quote name='tarman2010' date='15 February 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1266290598' post='2184186']
However fake the first screen shot may look, you're forgetting the possibility that the entire row with the funky distortion is in a different font due to the JackieChan account being logged in as an anonymous user. I'm not technical enough to know whether this along with the image being a JPEG could cause the distortion seen, but I think that in itself plus the fact that 57th and GloF were allies should have been enough to merit talking to 57th before attacking.
[/quote]
And really that's what most people have basically been saying.

Yea, it [i]might[/i] be fake, but it might not, and they're your allies. You can't just attack your MDP partner because they [i]might[/i] have fed you faulty intel.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Chron' date='16 February 2010 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1266290494' post='2184181']
Yeah...You dont have much of a sense for irony, do you?


Oh, I get it. You really do think it's alright to declare war on your MDP ally over a possible (unconfirmed at the time, and still not really confirmed now) sending of a faulty screenshot.

Not limit it to just canceling a treaty, but outright attacking while ignoring the cancellation clause in the MDP. Yeah, I think your alliance should be pretty pleased you aren't in a position to make that call.
[/quote]
[ooc] I usually love the ironic posts, but currently I have roommates causing a lot of noise and a headache so it went right past my head[OOC]
It was confirmed to the same standards that 99% of screenshots used here have been in the past, why do you expect more from GLOF? If they are wrong and the first 2 are authentic then it is a computer anomaly that is to be blamed not any lack of effort on GLOFs side. It is justified if your MDP partner is lying to you just to achieve some spiteful revenge.

[quote]
However fake the first screen shot may look, you're forgetting the possibility that the entire row with the funky distortion is in a different font due to the JackieChan account being logged in as an anonymous user. I'm not technical enough to know whether this along with the image being a JPEG could cause the distortion seen, but I think that in itself plus the fact that 57th and GloF were allies should have been enough to merit talking to 57th before attacking. [/quote]
I dont have too much experience in checking fakes compared to other screenshots, so if several people who have all confirmed for me that they were then I would believe them. The fact that most people dont know if it did effect the pictures or not shows how unlikely it is, or we would have lots of statements from experience saying otherwise.

Edited February 16, 2010 by agafaba

[TehChron]

[quote]It was confirmed to the same standards that 99% of screenshots used here have been in the past, why do you expect more from GLOF? If they are wrong and the first 2 are authentic then it is a computer anomaly that is to be blamed not any lack of effort on GLOFs side. It is justified if your MDP partner is lying to you just to achieve some spiteful revenge.[/quote]
Yes, going to war over a [i]possibly[/i] fake screenshot [i]before[/i] resolving the issue in private channels with your [i]MDP Partner[/i] is reasonable to you.

I see we're not going to get anywhere.