Confusion Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) Honorable as always Legion. As for Sparta, Dishonorable as always. Seriously guys can you expect anything else from lolSparta? Edited February 12, 2010 by marcus the great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Izuzu Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Zyvexal' date='11 February 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1265947727' post='2176456'] It has nothing to do our government, our government is working fine along the guidelines of our charter. The fact remains that the Imperator's decisions can be vetoed with a 3/4 vote of the consulate, and that no final surrender statement with sig was given to your side. So it's not our fault that you guys jumped the gun, don't try to pin this mistake on us. [/quote] [quote name='Zyvexal' date='11 February 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1265948109' post='2176481'] HE. DIDN'T. PUT. HIS. NAME. ON. IT. and therefore, we CAN veto. [/quote] There is a quote from Legion's emperor stating emphatically that no peace agreement was ever signed and that it was still in discussion. This is clearly a case of Sparta falling all over its feet in order to post a peace agreement that never existed. Typical Spartan fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Joe Izuzu' date='11 February 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1265948297' post='2176493'] There is a quote from Legion's emperor stating emphatically that no peace agreement was ever signed and that it was still in discussion. This is clearly a case of Sparta falling all over its feet in order to post a peace agreement that never existed. Typical Spartan fail. [/quote] Well, Legion did the same thing only a few hours ago. Let's all agree that everyone on that front has been inhaling a bit too much nuclear waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coursca Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1265947216' post='2176423'] Yea...you cant veto a surrender agreement once agreed to and signed by the leader of an alliance...that's called "breaking surrender terms" [/quote] Or perhaps the leader of the alliance might not have had the sole authority you seem to think he did and "signed" said agreement in defiance of processes set forth in the charter of said alliance, which would make the document worthless paper. Unless you're telling me that someone without the sole authority to sign treaties in an alliance can, in fact, sign a white peace agreement and have it be completely valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyvexal Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Joe Izuzu' date='11 February 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1265948297' post='2176493'] There is a quote from Legion's emperor stating emphatically that no peace agreement was ever signed and that it was still in discussion. This is clearly a case of Sparta falling all over its feet in order to post a peace agreement that never existed. Typical Spartan fail. [/quote] THANK YOU. and just to clarify. I'm the former Inspector General of the Legion, which means I'm the Legion Charter expert. So don't any of you Spartans try to talk to US about OUR charter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchh Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1265948004' post='2176474'] The fact remains your leader signed an agreement, and a veto of that signature does not apply to a war time surrender situation. This is something you cannot veto, you cannot take back. Once he definitively agrees, which he did, and puts his name on it, you have absolutely zero second chances to say "well gee wiz actually nm we did a veto and are back at war now". Now however you have two choices. Declare war offensively and break your surrender terms, and get everything that will be brought upon you because of that, or adhere to them and take up this situation internally with your leader. [/quote] I believe the charter would override any other document. Obviously it wouldn't be prudent for the leader to agree to something only to have it repealed by veto weeks or even days later. They followed their charter to the letter to my knowledge, and within a very reasonable amount of time. Whether this course of action affects future terms is irrelevant. A veto could definitely apply to this agreement. Perhaps Legion should have communicated that it could be vetoed, and likewise for the other side not getting a less ambiguous answer. I wouldn't expect other alliances to know our charter to the letter, but if a disagreement like this were to occur I'd hope that both sides have the respect and dignity to recognize mistakes were made and reconvene. Edited February 12, 2010 by mitchh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulmar Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 February 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1265948388' post='2176499'] Well, Legion did the same thing only a few hours ago. Let's all agree that everyone on that front has been inhaling a bit too much nuclear waste. [/quote] I can dig this. Seems reasonable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assarax Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Joe Izuzu' date='11 February 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1265948297' post='2176493'] There is a quote from Legion's emperor stating emphatically that no peace agreement was ever signed and that it was still in discussion. This is clearly a case of Sparta falling all over its feet in order to post a peace agreement that never existed. Typical Spartan fail. [/quote] ^This. This is either an attempt from Sparta to try to discredit us and get us out of the war, or an overeager Spartan leader blowing his load a bit too soon. Either way, this is a Spartan blunder, NOT a Legion blunder. There [b]will be no coup[/b]. Period. Our consulate was well within their rights to veto our Imperator's decision, and if the rest of you don't like it, well you can go shove it where the sun don't shine. I'm inclined to believe this is a sad attempt at a forgery by Sparta, and I must say, poor show. Edited February 12, 2010 by assarax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='mitchh' date='11 February 2010 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1265947763' post='2176459'] That could very well be, but it doesn't change the gravity and complexity of the situation. [/quote] No doubt, what I'm saying is that you don't make the decision then have half the government scrambling to understand what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='mitchh' date='12 February 2010 - 04:21 AM' timestamp='1265948469' post='2176506'] I believe the charter would override any other document. Obviously it wouldn't be prudent for the leader to agree to something only to have it repealed by veto weeks or even days later. They followed their charter to the letter to my knowledge, and within a very reasonable amount of time. Whether this course of action affects future terms is irrelevant. A veto can definitely apply to this agreement. Perhaps Legion should have communicated that it could be vetoed, but likewise for the other side not getting a less ambiguous answer. I wouldn't expect other alliances to know our charter to the letter, but if a disagreement like this were to occur I'd hope that both sides have the respect and dignity to recognize mistakes were made and reconvene. [/quote] Yes, like I said before, a future charter amendment so this does not happen in the future would probably be wise, as this just plain is not the type of decision that can be vetoed as a matter of practicality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmia Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Hyperion321' date='11 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1265946680' post='2176382'] hubb agreed to peace. You waited until he left and then took authority and rescinded the peace without telling us. [/quote] Or you could quit trying to tell a sovereign alliance what to do. This is an internal affairs thing, it may result in actions that you don't like but it is their decision, of course it'll have consequences but they dictate what is legit for their alliance, not you. If they say the process wasn't followed and the sigs aren't legit, then they're not legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogeWilliam Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I guess a lolsparta is in order if what legion members are saying is true. Poor show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyvexal Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Also, IF our Imperator had given the signatures and an official surrender statement, then yes, I do agree that a veto at this point would be stupid, inappropriate and undiplomatic. However, the fact is that he DID NOT give an official statement, and DID NOT put his name down on anything. also, SoL came to us and said there was a miscommunication, and everyone was fine with it, but we say that this is a miscommunication, and every Spartan goes ape!@#$? I laugh at your hypocrisy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchh Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1265948607' post='2176514'] No doubt, what I'm saying is that you don't make the decision then have half the government scrambling to understand what happened. [/quote] [quote name='Matthew Conrad' date='11 February 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1265946825' post='2176395'] Seriously, I'm tired of dealing with your government's incompetence. This is probably the first time I've seen an alliance of this size act with so much indecision and confusion with [b]something that is so simple[/b]. [/quote] Bolding is mine. I'd contend that you were saying otherwise. According to them, the decision wasn't made. There is going to be scrambling if somebody posts that you agree to a white peace when you haven't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locke Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 And the Cluster$%&@ grows. In the spirit of this war, I hope you all continue to blow each other up and bask in the radiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assarax Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Zyvexal' date='11 February 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1265948771' post='2176527'] Also, IF our Imperator had given the signatures and an official surrender statement, then yes, I do agree that a veto at this point would be stupid, inappropriate and undiplomatic. However, the fact is that he DID NOT give an official statement, and DID NOT put his name down on anything. also, SoL came to us and said there was a miscommunication, and everyone was fine with it, but we say that this is a miscommunication, and every Spartan goes ape!@#$? I laugh at your hypocrisy. [/quote] Scurred is all they are. Edited February 12, 2010 by assarax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I mean this nicely; who's truly in [i]charge[/i] of your alliance during times of [i]war[/i]? I honestly have no clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulmar Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 zomg, I did something unthinkable and actually went to read the Legion's charter. [quote] # D: The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace, based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war. # E: The Consulate are the deciding body on the definition of a "dire or warranted" situation. A vote can be called by any Consul asking for evidence that warrants war, or an explanation as to why war was called. A 3/4 majority vote will determine whether war is warranted or not. [/quote] These two clauses seem to tell me that while the Imperator does have the ability to declare war and peace, a 3/4 majority vote is necessary from the Consulate. The clause's wording leaves much to be desired, but I feel like that is what it was going for. Anyways from what I am reading here, Hubb never actually agreed to peace, and gave some ambiguous messages to Legion's opponents that they took as acquiescence. so the charter wording doesn't actually matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='11 February 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1265947216' post='2176423'] Yea...you cant veto a surrender agreement once agreed to and signed by the leader of an alliance...that's called "breaking surrender terms" [/quote] So, since when was this CN-wide charter signed that said the #1 leader in any alliance can single-handedly surrender regardless of the alliance's specific charter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenBoy Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Alright then, lets give them another week to make their decision. The rest of us will be enjoying free Legion tech. Works for everyone am I right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fronz Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 This is why governments require 3/4 approval BEFORE a decision is made, giving veto power to a body of people just doesn't make sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindom of Goon Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Sulmar' date='12 February 2010 - 04:29 AM' timestamp='1265948982' post='2176537'] zomg, I did something unthinkable and actually went to read the Legion's charter. These two clauses seem to tell me that while the Imperator does have the ability to declare war and peace, a 3/4 majority vote is necessary from the Consulate. The clause's wording leaves much to be desired, but I feel like that is what it was going for. Anyways from what I am reading here, Hubb never actually agreed to peace, and gave some ambiguous messages to Legion's opponents that they took as acquiescence. so the charter wording doesn't actually matter. [/quote] From reading that it looks like the veto is only valid for declaring war. No idea if there is another section to it, and I don't really care enough to look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dontasemebro Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I mean, kudos for not surrendering and all, but wtf does that post mean? "We rejected having to give them 600mil and they offered white peace but that was unacceptable." was what it reads at first, but do you mean "We wanted 600mil but they said only white peace and that's unacceptable." Either way, other than the "fake signatures," by sparta....good show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Well The Legion isn't surrendering now no matter what their charter says, so it doesn't really matter. This is why I like [i]our[/i] government system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnar Griffin Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Hyperion321' date='11 February 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1265946680' post='2176382'] hubb agreed to peace. You waited until he left and then took authority and rescinded the peace without telling us. [/quote] No one signed a peace agreement. You forged signatures. Don't try and make feces look like flowers. We had a vote in progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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