On the Subject of White Peace

[Arcturus Jefferson]

If people are going to get all antsy in their pantsies about white peace, lets give them white peace.

After all members of their alliance have been sufficiently reduced in live combat.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote]I certainly hope so. If I have any influence they will. As I pointed out above, reparations are to repair damage caused (which there will be a lot of), to hinder the losers from re-attacking soon (which I am all in favor of, particularly when this same group was let off the hook 6 months ago and took the opportunity to build up and FAIL again) and to serve as a deterrent to future wars.[/quote]
Good luck with that.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Feanor Noldorin

[flak attack]

[quote name='Baldr' date='08 February 2010 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1265687223' post='2169674']
I don't actually have any first hand knowledge here. It was either before I was around, or at least before I started paying attention to politics.

The wiki says 3 months, $2.1 billion. That's far less, both in time, and in actual rep amounts, than NPO was given.
[/quote]
I can verify that terms existed beyond that 3 months. I was GPA gov when the last term was repealed.

[Ecthelion]

[quote name='Baldr' date='08 February 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1265682552' post='2169545']
I think a lot of that is also simply strategy. In the Karma war, for instance, it helped the Karma forces if NPO allies would accept white peace and get out of the war. If they had been told "Nope, no easy way out, you'll have to agree to harsh reps", then those alliances would be more likely to continue to fight. Giving minimal or zero reps in order to convince allies to quit fighting is simply war strategy in many cases.



If by "light surrender terms" you mean "the highest reps ever paid, under terms for a minimum of six months, with limitations on which nations make make the rep payments", they I suppose that's true. But honestly, it sounds like nonsense to me.



The forces of Karma required the highest reps ever, and then added other limitations to make it harder to pay those reps.

The forces of Karma pretty much *all* tech raid, and some tech raid alliances.

The forces of Karma have stated that TOP and IRON will have incredibly harsh reps following the current war.

This "We're the good guys" thing is a smoke screen, and not a particularly good one.
[/quote]

Alright, if you want Karma sided alliances to balantly be the bad guys, they (we) will demand massive reps, reduce victim alliances to little or no power and place a viceroy in your alliance(s) for an undetermined amount of time. Smaller alliances will be used as tech farms and others will be absorbed into karma alliances to increase our ranks.

Or they could give out white peace to most alliances and demand decent reps from those who made piss poor decisions (jumping an entire block without a cb, for example).

Just sayin'

Edited February 10, 2010 by Ecthelion

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='The Thief' date='07 February 2010 - 10:51 AM' timestamp='1265503907' post='2165564']
Before Karma, the New Pacific Order and its allies gripped the reins of power with an iron fist. [/quote]

The period you speak of was the third age, and yes, during that time that was true.

Unfortunately this single sentence appears to be the only truth in your post.

[quote]I say this not to condemn the NPO and its allies, nor to insult it, but merely to address the majority, which is of like mind. [/quote]

Quit being so wishy-washy. If you think this is truth then say it is truth, if not then do not. Truth isnt dependent on polling.

[quote]Most members of the Cyberverse believe, for better or worse, true or false, that the Hegemony kept its power through intimidation and brute force. [/quote]

A massive oversimplification, but true in a limited sense, particularly towards the end of the third age when the Hegemony had grown decadent and came to believe themselves infallible, invincible, and above morality or law.

[quote]The Karma War was the manner in which some, idealistically, tried to unseat the Hegemony and install a new, fair world order. For others, Karma was, as its name implied, revenge. At the end of the day, however, the revenge faction held a stronger position inside Karma, and the Hegemony (the NPO in particular) was offered some of the harshest reparations terms in history. [/quote]

This is so wrong and so insanely ignorant it just leaves me gasping in astonishment. Karma was neutered before it got out the gate. Pacifica took a pounding, but the terms were hardly harsh in light of their past. They served as a tech farm for a few months - something they had done to many others before, something they did to others routinely without even needing a reason. No alliances were faced with eternal war, none were forced to disband, no viceroys were installed, no government officials were expelled or even demoted to reach peace, on any front. And most of the Hegemony got *very* light terms *very* quickly.

[quote name='Baldr' date='09 February 2010 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1265687223' post='2169674']
The wiki says 3 months, $2.1 billion. That's far less, both in time, and in actual rep amounts, than NPO was given.
[/quote]

As often is the case, the wiki is wrong. The reps were 70,000 tech to [i]each[/i] of the alliances that assaulted us, but the terms went well beyond that. They extended indefinitely at Pacificas pleasure, and the GPA was finally released as a public relations ploy shortly before the Karma war, roughly a year later. Furthermore to compare reps extorted from the one major alliance which had in the history of Bob never played the power games and was constitutionally incapable of posing any sort of threat to the Hegemony after they were attacked and brutally slaughtered with reps extracted from the Hegemon itself, which had a long history of slaughter, betrayal, spying, couping, imposition of viceroys, disbandment, regime change and eternal war on anyone that dared resist, for a war THEY STARTED is laughably absurd.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Arcturus Jefferson]

Don't you get it Sigrun? The GPA was as bad as the NPO.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='11 February 2010 - 02:48 AM' timestamp='1265878090' post='2174352']
Pacifica took a pounding, but the terms were hardly harsh in light of their past. They served as a tech farm for a few months - something they had done to many others before, something they did to others routinely without even needing a reason. [/quote]

Pacifica is still paying reps, now. You talk about being a tech farm for a few months, while ignoring the fact that NPO is sending money and tech now, and will be for awhile. Reps started on Sep 1st, so it's already been over five months. And NPO has to come up with that tech and money themselves.

When GATO got terms from NPO, NPO paid them $3M for 100 tech, plus bonuses when the sellers retired from selling, which was a better deal than NPO tech sellers were getting at the time. It helped GATO to rebuild, as opposed to this "You just give us stuff, finance it on your own" thing.

I'm not saying NPO has never done anything wrong, or that they shouldn't have paid reps. I got involved in the discussion when people were making claims about how Karma gave "light surrender terms".

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Baldr' date='11 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1265945969' post='2176315']
Pacifica is still paying reps, now. You talk about being a tech farm for a few months, while ignoring the fact that NPO is sending money and tech now, and will be for awhile. Reps started on Sep 1st, so it's already been over five months. And NPO has to come up with that tech and money themselves.

When GATO got terms from NPO, NPO paid them $3M for 100 tech, plus bonuses when the sellers retired from selling, which was a better deal than NPO tech sellers were getting at the time. It helped GATO to rebuild, as opposed to this "You just give us stuff, finance it on your own" thing.

I'm not saying NPO has never done anything wrong, or that they shouldn't have paid reps. I got involved in the discussion when people were making claims about how Karma gave "light surrender terms".
[/quote]
Wow you did GATO a !@#$@#$ favor. The ingrates!

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Baldr' date='11 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1265945969' post='2176315']
When GATO got terms from NPO, NPO paid them $3M for 100 tech, plus bonuses when the sellers retired from selling, which was a better deal than NPO tech sellers were getting at the time. It helped GATO to rebuild, as opposed to this "You just give us stuff, finance it on your own" thing.
[/quote]

This sounds really nice except for the fact that NPO basically ZIed the entire alliance and held them there for 3 months because of a 6-month old OOC infraction of year old surrender terms. They didn't take reparations because GATO would have been unable to pay them.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Baldr]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 February 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1265950327' post='2176625']
This sounds really nice except for the fact that NPO basically ZIed the entire alliance and held them there for 3 months because of a 6-month old OOC infraction of year old surrender terms. They didn't take reparations because GATO would have been unable to pay them.
[/quote]

First, I'm not saying that NPO treated GATO well, or that NPO did the right thing, or that NPO has never made a mistake.

But NPO could have easily told GATO to finance the tech themselves, or that the tech would be purchased at 150/$3M (like NPO sellers were doing). NPO could have easily decided not to give the retirement bonuses. The way it was done did help GATO.

If you're looking for someone to say "NPO has never screwed up", you've got the wrong guy.

But at the same time, a lot of the NPO hatred is based on false facts. Just like the "NPO gave out tech for a few months" comment, which is simply not true and ignores the aid which is still being sent. You can go look at their aid slots right now, and you'll see a lot of money and tech being sent outside of the NPO.

I got involved when someone lied about how Karma gave out light terms. They didn't.

[Lord Brendan]

The terms handed out by the Karma coalition were lighter than pretty much any major war in the past two years. No reps was the general rule - NPO, IRON, TPF and Echelon being the only real exceptions.

[Baldr]

Right. The ones that surrendered early, so that Karma could concentrate on NPO, got off with light terms.

For everyone else, terms were as heavy as Karma could get away with.

TPF got fairly heavy terms for their size, and then got jumped by Karma nations not long after paying them off.

[Krack]

[quote name='Baldr' date='11 February 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1265951880' post='2176759']
Right. The ones that surrendered early, so that Karma could concentrate on NPO, got off with light terms.

For everyone else, terms were as heavy as Karma could get away with.
[/quote]

Um ... sorry ... Karma could have given them far far worse. The problem at the time was that most leadership on the Karma side were only really concerned with NPO and either didn't really believe TOP was busy creating itself some meatshields for the next war or they didn't really care. Most people were so fed up with TOP at the time that they just wanted the war over so they didn't have to deal with them anymore; their diplomacy is dandy. Either way, if the Karma alliances had put the hammer down six months ago, this war wouldn't be happening. Live and learn. I hope.

[King Death II]

IMO, White peace sucks and should be outlawed. Its a pansies way out of a war and should never be used. If you loose the war, the winner has the full right to make you pay reps, after all you did loose the war.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Krack' date='11 February 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1265953381' post='2176911']
Um ... sorry ... Karma could have given them far far worse.[/quote]

They did offer worse. NPO refused. To make an agreement, you have to make an offer the other side will agree to. NPO refused worse terms, terms and details changed, and an agreement was made.

[Krack]

[quote name='Baldr' date='12 February 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1265954516' post='2177017']
They did offer worse. NPO refused. To make an agreement, you have to make an offer the other side will agree to. NPO refused worse terms, terms and details changed, and an agreement was made.
[/quote]

If you don't think Karma could have put NPO into a state of perma-war had it chose to, with little to no damage being done to itself, you are extremely ill informed.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='12 February 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1265950327' post='2176625']
This sounds really nice except for the fact that NPO basically ZIed the entire alliance and held them there for 3 months because of a 6-month old OOC infraction of year old surrender terms. They didn't take reparations because GATO would have been unable to pay them.
[/quote]
But we have seen quite recently that 6 month old CBs are just as good as fresh ones.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Moridin]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='11 February 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1265950327' post='2176625']
This sounds really nice except for the fact that NPO basically ZIed the entire alliance and held them there for 3 months because of a 6-month old OOC infraction of year old surrender terms. They didn't take reparations because GATO would have been unable to pay them.
[/quote]

Let's not forget installing Koona as viceroy. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone; it's far worse than paying any amount of reparations.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Moridin

[The Thief]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='11 February 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1265878090' post='2174352']
The period you speak of was the third age, and yes, during that time that was true.

Unfortunately this single sentence appears to be the only truth in your post.

Quit being so wishy-washy. If you think this is truth then say it is truth, if not then do not. Truth isnt dependent on polling.

A massive oversimplification, but true in a limited sense, particularly towards the end of the third age when the Hegemony had grown decadent and came to believe themselves infallible, invincible, and above morality or law.

This is so wrong and so insanely ignorant it just leaves me gasping in astonishment. Karma was neutered before it got out the gate. Pacifica took a pounding, but the terms were hardly harsh in light of their past. They served as a tech farm for a few months - something they had done to many others before, something they did to others routinely without even needing a reason. No alliances were faced with eternal war, none were forced to disband, no viceroys were installed, no government officials were expelled or even demoted to reach peace, on any front. And most of the Hegemony got *very* light terms *very* quickly.
[/quote]

Truth may not be dependent on polling, but nor is it dependent on your biases. Perhaps my language was too indirect, and perhaps I oversimplified, but you have missed the point of this thread. I composed my opinion on the original subject so as to generate discussion as to whether there is a new trend in white peace, and, if so, how it has come about. Instead of this supposedly productive discussion, I find people such as yourself attempting to pick apart my (obviously simplified) premise in an effort to satisfy their own worldviews. As a perfect example of this, you chose to insult me and my opinion by ignoring the true content of the post and by rejecting my premise out of hand. The post was on a general subject, hence the general premise. This was not an exercise in fact-checking, nor was it some ridiculously convoluted form of Jeopardy intended for those with hot heads and short attention spans. The premise was a presentation of the worldview of the majority, in order to show what I believe to be the influence of this worldview on said majority. Special-interest groups need not apply. If you have something to say to advance the discussion, then say it, but your post so far has done nothing but irritate me, and add fuel to the fire for those such as you who would ignore the point in a vague attempt at ego preening. I liked how this discussion was going well into the third page. The current derailment is pointless, so I would ask that you get back on topic or stop posting.

To those who have advanced this thread and attempted to enlighten themselves and others, thank you.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]When GATO got terms from NPO, NPO paid them $3M for 100 tech, plus bonuses when the sellers retired from selling, which was a better deal than NPO tech sellers were getting at the time. It helped GATO to rebuild, as opposed to this "You just give us stuff, finance it on your own" thing.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure the monetary reparations were not the reason that the GATO-1V war was on the list of Hegemony injustices

[Electron Sponge]

[quote name='Moridin' date='12 February 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1265981189' post='2177500']
Let's not forget installing Koona as viceroy. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone; it's far worse than paying any amount of reparations.
[/quote]
It's a good way to get your database stolen.

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='13 February 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1266021036' post='2178394']
I'm pretty sure the monetary reparations were not the reason that the GATO-1V war was on the list of Hegemony injustices
[/quote]
Aaaactually.... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say GATO had it coming. That wasn't an injustice. They knowingly broke terms, and then those who didn't know but found out later on never even bothered to inform any of the 1V leadership. Christ Kaos got GATO's collective rear end shot off, not NPO's bloodlust. Sure GATO got manhandled. Don't blame it all on NPO though. GATO bears its share of the blame.

Not everything NPO and friends ever did was evil. Sometimes there was a good and valid reason.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Electron Sponge' date='12 February 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1266023052' post='2178434']
Aaaactually.... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say GATO had it coming. That wasn't an injustice. They knowingly broke terms, and then those who didn't know but found out later on never even bothered to inform any of the 1V leadership. Christ Kaos got GATO's collective rear end shot off, not NPO's bloodlust. Sure GATO got manhandled. Don't blame it all on NPO though. GATO bears its share of the blame.

Not everything NPO and friends ever did was evil. Sometimes there was a good and valid reason.
[/quote]

That's a load of crap. How the hell is GATO supposed to prevent someone from re-rolling anonymously into their alliance?

[OOC]It really isn't even an in-character violation. Chris Kaos never rejoined GATO, another nation controlled by the same player did. One of the worst crimes of the Hegemony IMO was blurring the line like this.[/OOC]

As if fessing up to it would have helped. There was no good or valid reason for attacking GATO, only a half-$@! excuse.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Jinnai]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='12 February 2010 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1265980837' post='2177492']
But we have seen quite recently that 6 month old CBs are just as good as fresh ones.
[/quote]
That's what happens when you plan Europa Universalis.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Electron Sponge' date='13 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1266023052' post='2178434']Aaaactually.... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say GATO had it coming. That wasn't an injustice. They knowingly broke terms, and then those who didn't know but found out later on never even bothered to inform any of the 1V leadership. Christ Kaos got GATO's collective rear end shot off, not NPO's bloodlust. Sure GATO got manhandled. Don't blame it all on NPO though. GATO bears its share of the blame.

Not everything NPO and friends ever did was evil. Sometimes there was a good and valid reason.
[/quote]

But how is it that banning Chris (OOC actually his player) from ever holding even the most minor positions in GATO forever after was ok, but doing the same to any member of Pacifica would have been oh so wrong and immoral? That is what puzzles me.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Sigrun Vapneir