New Wonders

[sayton]

as of right now.. i dont see any NATION BUILDING/REBUILDING wonders.. am i right? nothing that adds to income or lowers bills.. they are all military things...

i dont see any point to waste any money on them as of right now.. i have to buy the space program myself as my last wonder then i think it will be just all out spending on my nation after that again..

anyone think any of the new wonders can help EXTREMELY??

ps: yea.. the aid one should reallly just be sender.. then it would be EXTREMELY well. maybe you make the price a bit more then..

[Guido]

i feel like the aid wonder is that way bc they don't want new nations getting 22.5 million in aid immediately.

[Zirbyli]

and I feel that the aid wonder should be something like 45M cost (35M if both need it), and it should allow you to send like 9M-12M at time if you really want that it helps the larger nation aids going on. yeah, this way it doesn't help the smaller ones too soon anyways. the +1M cap to aid/1000 infra is also interesting solution.

[Stylesjl]

They all sound pretty neat, except the Federal Aid Agency. But I think the Manhatten Project is probaly the best thing. The latest tech re-evaluation set me back under the top 5% The manhatten project would reduce the pressure to buy so much technology off the market

[sayton]

They all sound pretty neat, except the Federal Aid Agency. But I think the Manhatten Project is probaly the best thing. The latest tech re-evaluation set me back under the top 5% The manhatten project would reduce the pressure to buy so much technology off the market

maybe but how many nation honestly make enough to buy that that are under the 5% of the nations.. 100million isnt a small amount.. it takes a long time to get that for me and im prety high up. i dont think nations under the 5% wil lget that

[Starcraftmazter]

I think the Manhattan project is probably not designed for nations outside the top 5%, but rather for high-up nations whom do not wish to have the pressure of maintaining their strength, or the possibility of not having nukes after a big war.

[Logan]

The Federal Aid Agency could also be used to pay reps after a large war, not sure if anyone mentioned that one. Also to the MCXA guy who said there is no reason to buy these Wonders, have you ever thought what would happen if you got caught in a war in which your opponent had some of these and you didn't? You would be fighting under huge odds.

[Syzygy]

as of right now.. i dont see any NATION BUILDING/REBUILDING wonders.. am i right? nothing that adds to income or lowers bills.. they are all military things...

i dont see any point to waste any money on them as of right now.. i have to buy the space program myself as my last wonder then i think it will be just all out spending on my nation after that again..

anyone think any of the new wonders can help EXTREMELY??

ps: yea.. the aid one should reallly just be sender.. then it would be EXTREMELY well. maybe you make the price a bit more then..

thats the whole point of these new wonders. adding even more +happyness +income +population stuff is not very benefitial to the game itself. the key is, now nations have to make a choice which path they choose - if you for example only focus on all the income increasing wonders, and someone with SDI, FAB, CIA and Pentagon jumps on you, you are pretty much dead and would wish you had invested your cash into other wonders instead to counter his stuff. All your $ are worth nothing then, but his benefits are there, counting in every single battle.

[Homura]

In the initial new wonder topic I saw several people ask, "Will both nations have to have the federal aid comission" and others responded "it would only make sense."

I wonder who these others are, because I clearly remember stating the contrary.

There's absolutely no reason to buy this one because once you have the income to start buying wonders, you've already figured out that there's better options than this. Buying a wonder that costs as much as paying over a month worth of bills is not worth it for me, especially since anyone who does banking is also saving up and building their economy and won't have it either. If it cost significantly less (around $5-10 million would be the point where it would serve a useful purpose) or added an additional aid slot on top of the other effects it would actually be useful.

[Stuka]

This.

Is.

Wonderful.

Thanks.

Admin.

God.

Bless.

You.

Amen.

[Dr Blindness]

I haven't read the entire thread, but at 100 mil, just how many nations below the 5% threshold is the MP really going to impact? for example, even after my next infra jump, it would take me approximately 50 days or so to save up enough to purchase that, and frankly, i would be looking at the standard wonders first.

I do like the SDI a lot, however, and agree with the suggestions to drop the aid requirement.

[Logan]

I haven't read the entire thread, but at 100 mil, just how many nations below the 5% threshold is the MP really going to impact? for example, even after my next infra jump, it would take me approximately 50 days or so to save up enough to purchase that, and frankly, i would be looking at the standard wonders first.

I do like the SDI a lot, however, and agree with the suggestions to drop the aid requirement.

What about if you were in the top 5% and you got knocked down during a war. Your supply of nukes ranging between 20-25 wouldn't last that long now in days with the new addition with spies and SDI now would they? If you have a Manhattan Project you will be able to buy nukes regardless.

[Mjolnir]

To the people saying SDI is "too" cheap/should be removed/handicapped some more - Have you even fought in a nuclear war before? I have and it's not pretty. During GW4, I attacked a nation which shortly thereafter went rogue. Lost over 1000 infra due to one guy alone. That's over a 100 million in money. 1/9th of my infra that I spent playing for over a year buying, gone just like that. I dunno about you but that's pretty damn big impact. SDI could help limit the abuse of nuclear weapons even more. It'll be extremely interesting to see how many people will succeed as a rogue after this change. It's about time we filled in that empty gap

[der_ko]

To the people saying SDI is "too" cheap/should be removed/handicapped some more - Have you even fought in a nuclear war before? I have and it's not pretty. During GW4, I attacked a nation which shortly thereafter went rogue. Lost over 1000 infra due to one guy alone. That's over a 100 million in money. 1/9th of my infra that I spent playing for over a year buying, gone just like that. I dunno about you but that's pretty damn big impact. SDI could help limit the abuse of nuclear weapons even more. It'll be extremely interesting to see how many people will succeed as a rogue after this change. It's about time we filled in that empty gap

Please do tell how nulcear weapons are being abused? And yes, I have fought in nuclear wars and I have been nuke rogued so I do know how it feels to be nuked. Do you really want wars do be more or less minimally damaging just because you happen to tripple team someone? Why shouldn't someone who has prepared their defenses to the max be able to severely damage someone who wants to take them down?

None of the new wonders are anyway near as effective as the SDI. The pentagon, for example, gives you a 10 % boost in ground attacks and the SDI gives you 60 % chance of shooting down nukes.

[Compstomper]

Building an SDI is part of preparing your defenses. If your nuked, excluding the SDI, no amount of defenses are going to make a difference. In the end it is always the same result, you lose.

The ONLY thing SDI does is gives some rogue protection and make people think twice before using nukes in wars.

You do understand that the SDI costs 75 million dollars and only blocks a little over half of the nukes launched. The odds are that the second time the button is pressed a nuke is going to hit. This wonder in no way eliminates how much damage you take in a nuclear war. You can still be hit by a nuke EVERY single day of the war. It just keeps nuclear wars from becoming a 'I punch you, you punch me' thing till a nation ends up dead.

For the price of an SDI you could buy 75 nukes. That would equate to 11250 infra damage, 11250 land damage, 375 days of nuclear anarchy, and 3750 tech damage.

Even than only a VERY small fraction of nations are going to get the SDI let alone be able to afford it or want to waste a wonder slot on one.

You seem to be under the impression that 95% of nations are going to get the SDI wonder. Most of the people who are going to buy this are going to be peaceful nations scared of being attacked by nukes. This argument is about equal to saying that the Interstate System is over powered.

When nations are 500+ days old a few of us should be allowed to get a wonder that gives us a bit of protection.

[Steelrat]

Building an SDI is part of preparing your defenses. If your nuked, excluding the SDI, no amount of defenses are going to make a difference. In the end it is always the same result, you lose.

The ONLY thing SDI does is gives some rogue protection and make people think twice before using nukes in wars.

You do understand that the SDI costs 75 million dollars and only blocks a little over half of the nukes launched. The odds are that the second time the button is pressed a nuke is going to hit. This wonder in no way eliminates how much damage you take in a nuclear war. You can still be hit by a nuke EVERY single day of the war. It just keeps nuclear wars from becoming a 'I punch you, you punch me' thing till a nation ends up dead.

For the price of an SDI you could buy 75 nukes. That would equate to 11250 infra damage, 11250 land damage, 375 days of nuclear anarchy, and 3750 tech damage.

Even than only a VERY small fraction of nations are going to get the SDI let alone be able to afford it or want to waste a wonder slot on one.

You seem to be under the impression that 95% of nations are going to get the SDI wonder. Most of the people who are going to buy this are going to be peaceful nations scared of being attacked by nukes. This argument is about equal to saying that the Interstate System is over powered.

When nations are 500+ days old a few of us should be allowed to get a wonder that gives us a bit of protection.

Scenario alliance war, 300nations ( Alliance A ) vs 300nations ( Alliance B ). Alliance A has 300 SDI and 1800nukes vs Alliance B NO SDI and 1800Nukes who do you think is gonna win ? 1080nukes from Alliance B won´t hit... Judge yourself. There are other aspects as stay above the 5% mark and many more which make the SDI very very useful in alliance wars

Edited November 23, 2007 by Steelrat

[Wurzak]

Nice scenario Steelrat... So alliance A had enough funds to purchase 300 SDI for just 22500M, but didn't have enough funds to purchase 4200 more nukes? Makes sense... And since B hasn't purchased SDI they should have 22500M more cash than A, or they're and smaller alliance and would get crushed anyway. Wonders are supposed to help countries and that's what SDI does. It's only thing that makes defending in wars even theorethically possible. Your enemy can of course use the same amount of cash to purchase 75 nukes of which on average 45 will hit you.

The biggest problem is the current war system. Everyone plans to get their enemy into anarchy and bill lock, and there's nothing wrong with that, but nukes are pretty much the only reasonable way to do it. With conventional armies you need *grasp* strategy to get your enemy into anarchy, but if you have nukes you can just press the el stupido button. What about destroying infra and bill locking? You could always fight fierce and interesting battles and grind his nation into dust after destroying his army in a portrayl of your military genius... or you could just press the obtuse button and then attack a defenseless nation.

Since everyone seems to oppose war involving actual battles and strategies that don't involve nukes, why not bring back the old nuke effects? Surely you would appreciate the requirements of skill and strategy needed to weild the nukes of ye olde time CN? 50% uncapped infra and land damage plus the usual damage to soldiers (more like "soldiers? where? oooh, you mean the dust!").

[Drai]

^I forgot nukes used to be that powerful, that would absolutely destroy nations now. Personally, I don't think the wonder is as powerful as everyone says it is, although if you're large enough that you don't have anything else to spend your money on and all the income wonders have been purchased then it's a given that the SDI will be bought.

I'm glad all of these military wonders were put into the game, it adds a whole new aspect of military vs economic nations.

[Brotherington]

Wurzak there is just as much strategy to nuclear warfare as there is to conventional. And seeing as there will always be conventional war going on below the upper ranks nukes only add strategy.

[Syzygy]

Nice scenario Steelrat... So alliance A had enough funds to purchase 300 SDI for just 22500M, but didn't have enough funds to purchase 4200 more nukes? Makes sense... And since B hasn't purchased SDI they should have 22500M more cash than A, or they're and smaller alliance and would get crushed anyway. Wonders are supposed to help countries and that's what SDI does. It's only thing that makes defending in wars even theorethically possible. Your enemy can of course use the same amount of cash to purchase 75 nukes of which on average 45 will hit you.

The biggest problem is the current war system. Everyone plans to get their enemy into anarchy and bill lock, and there's nothing wrong with that, but nukes are pretty much the only reasonable way to do it. With conventional armies you need *grasp* strategy to get your enemy into anarchy, but if you have nukes you can just press the el stupido button. What about destroying infra and bill locking? You could always fight fierce and interesting battles and grind his nation into dust after destroying his army in a portrayl of your military genius... or you could just press the obtuse button and then attack a defenseless nation.

Since everyone seems to oppose war involving actual battles and strategies that don't involve nukes, why not bring back the old nuke effects? Surely you would appreciate the requirements of skill and strategy needed to weild the nukes of ye olde time CN? 50% uncapped infra and land damage plus the usual damage to soldiers (more like "soldiers? where? oooh, you mean the dust!").

you totally forget that there is a 20nukes cap per nation and a 5% barrier for nations getting nukes. So maybe Alliance A has easily 22500M MORE cash then Alliance B - but simply CANNOT get more nukes, because of the game limitations. Or to be more direct: Most Grämlins Topnations sit on 100-200 million warchest, and STILL cant buy more nukes, i am pretty sure 50 SDIs for our Top50 wouldnt slow down our growth noticable but significantly change our impact in a nuclear war, wouldnt it?

[Steelrat]

Nice scenario Steelrat... So alliance A had enough funds to purchase 300 SDI for just 22500M, but didn't have enough funds to purchase 4200 more nukes? Makes sense... And since B hasn't purchased SDI they should have 22500M more cash than A, or they're and smaller alliance and would get crushed anyway. Wonders are supposed to help countries and that's what SDI does. It's only thing that makes defending in wars even theorethically possible. Your enemy can of course use the same amount of cash to purchase 75 nukes of which on average 45 will hit you.

The biggest problem is the current war system. Everyone plans to get their enemy into anarchy and bill lock, and there's nothing wrong with that, but nukes are pretty much the only reasonable way to do it. With conventional armies you need *grasp* strategy to get your enemy into anarchy, but if you have nukes you can just press the el stupido button. What about destroying infra and bill locking? You could always fight fierce and interesting battles and grind his nation into dust after destroying his army in a portrayl of your military genius... or you could just press the obtuse button and then attack a defenseless nation.

Since everyone seems to oppose war involving actual battles and strategies that don't involve nukes, why not bring back the old nuke effects? Surely you would appreciate the requirements of skill and strategy needed to weild the nukes of ye olde time CN? 50% uncapped infra and land damage plus the usual damage to soldiers (more like "soldiers? where? oooh, you mean the dust!").

Meh, throw in any numbers you like it was an example, an extreme but it fullfilled what i wanted to show. And nuclear warfare is exact what you say "Everyone plans to get their enemy into anarchy and bill lock" but can you manage this for 19days are you able or you alliance to organise it this way? That´s the question and the point behind nuclear warfare: Which one is able to nuke longer

[Mjolnir]

Please do tell how nulcear weapons are being abused? And yes, I have fought in nuclear wars and I have been nuke rogued so I do know how it feels to be nuked. Do you really want wars do be more or less minimally damaging just because you happen to tripple team someone? Why shouldn't someone who has prepared their defenses to the max be able to severely damage someone who wants to take them down?

None of the new wonders are anyway near as effective as the SDI. The pentagon, for example, gives you a 10 % boost in ground attacks and the SDI gives you 60 % chance of shooting down nukes.

Well let's see. Nation A attacks three nations during a war which are already at war with other nations. Alliance retaliates by sending reinforcements to attack the Nation A and backup their comrades. That's six nations at war with Nation A. Nation A realizes it is screwed and/or gets "bored" of the game (which is mainly what happens to rogues) and decides to go out with a bang. Nation A is now officially a rogue. Rogue sends out a nuke to the nations s/he is at war with every 3 days or so while continually buying more nukes. 6 nukes, 6 nations, 150 infra per = 900 infra damage per day to others through nukes alone, not counting CM's and airforce. Now, the defending/attacking nations are at a great disadvantage - they can only nuke the rogue once a day and only do 150 infra damage through nukes. I wouldn't exactly call that "fair" as one nation is greatly outnumbered, is putting up a fight, and doing more damage in return.

That of course was the last war. Now we have the SDI and spies so hopefully the game has become much more balanced since then. Unfortunately, there's only one way to find out - wait until the next Great War.

[der_ko]

If by balanced you mean more lopsided, then yes.

[Brotherington]

Well let's see. Nation A attacks three nations during a war which are already at war with other nations. Alliance retaliates by sending reinforcements to attack the Nation A and backup their comrades. That's six nations at war with Nation A. Nation A realizes it is screwed and/or gets "bored" of the game (which is mainly what happens to rogues) and decides to go out with a bang. Nation A is now officially a rogue. Rogue sends out a nuke to the nations s/he is at war with every 3 days or so while continually buying more nukes. 6 nukes, 6 nations, 150 infra per = 900 infra damage per day to others through nukes alone, not counting CM's and airforce. Now, the defending/attacking nations are at a great disadvantage - they can only nuke the rogue once a day and only do 150 infra damage through nukes. I wouldn't exactly call that "fair" as one nation is greatly outnumbered, is putting up a fight, and doing more damage in return.

That of course was the last war. Now we have the SDI and spies so hopefully the game has become much more balanced since then. Unfortunately, there's only one way to find out - wait until the next Great War.

Wait, I think I missed the step. Getting in 6 wars makes you a rogue, last time I checked it was just good strategy? Don't blame the game mechanics for your own mistakes.

[Wurzak]

You won't have to launch a nuke every day, but you can buy one every day easily. Putting the enemy in to anarchy involves right now absolutely no strategy for nations with nukes. You press the big red button, they go to anarchy. It's as simple as that. If your alliance is at all organized you will be triple teaming targets and if the target has attacked one of your nations you might have 4 of your own fighting against him. Now how many nukes on average do you need to get one through? 2.5 (I accidentally used the original 75% change to stop nukes in my last calculations). Even if you were just triple teaming your target you could buy more than enough nukes per day to get one through their defenses. If you plan your attacks all of you get 2 unblockable ground attacks per day since nukes remove all defenses. While nukes do add some strategy to the game (that can be understood by toddlers) their too high profile takes away even more. Why would I bother having an army since my squad of boy scouts will do just as much damage to the defenseless enemy? Why would I pay for tanks and soldiers when the enemy will destroy them with won mouse click without giving me any chance to defend my self?

Can I keep my enemy in anarchy for 19 days? Why not? Nukes cost nothing and I'd be fighting the enemy with my allies who would also have free nukes. All of us press the silly button at least once per day and they'll never get out of anarchy. Running out of nukes isn't going to be a problem since out of the about 60 nukes we'd start with would on average hit 36 and during 19 days we could buy a total of 57 nukes if we really felt like we needed them. Out of those 34 would hit. If we wanted to spare our nukes we would hit every 4 days... and be able to purchase even more nukes. We're looking at the enemy spending the rest of eternity in nuclear anarchy I wouldn't even need to use a single brain cell. While they're in anarchy they won't be able to use spies to decom our missiles or do anything else nasty so we win even more. So what are we looking at? A no brainer super weapon that makes soldiers, tanks and spies pretty much useless...

I've participated in destroying alliances with just conventional attacks. Some planning and a swift attack is all it takes to put the enemy in to anarchy, but at least they got a chance to defend themselves unlike against nukes.