Vanguard Edict

[Rush Sykes]

Ok, first of all This war is going to hit them regardless, claiming they signed this treaty just to be able to get in the war is pretty stupid. Now, it's fairly obvious this isn't the case, but what is so wrong with signing a treaty to give them a tactical advantage during wartime?

You mean, sir, that nations of the world, for their own security, might sometimes be inclined to sign military treaties that are mutually beneficial with little to no friendship? You, sir, come dangerously close to creating a new moral outrage. Tread carefully!

Seriously folks, he is right. (OOC:) It happens ALL the time in the real world.(OOC) Military treaties are signed to protect your alliance. 99% of the time, they are based on friendship. It is some idiotic unwritten community standard that says they have to be based on friendship. That belief possible stems from the fact that friends are less likely to act irresponsibly and cause a whirlwind of problems for you. As this whole current nonsense situation shows, friendships often times fail in treaties.

[Bob]

I have fought 2 major wars for CnG and suffered major damage both times and it is sad to see what they have become and I am ashamed to be connected to them...o/ NpO We got your back and will not betray you like "some" people...

I am glad you personally are ashamed. I have always been ashamed that you were in STA, so I am glad to see the feelings are reciprocated.

You know nothing about CnG.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[delendum]

Wait, what? You are at two chains away from \m/. Both FOK and yourselves have a choice. From your comments here I take it you're going to take the wrong one as well?

Lets get something straight, \m/'s allies were still their allies even though they $%&@ed up. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out where attacking them might escalate, and there were countless other means of striving for these community standard goals in the long run if that was really what this was all about. FOK had a choice of letting their allies burn alone or come to their assistance.

And please, I prefer the term "not appropriate".

[TehChron]

I didn't know the NSO supported the larger community standard picture. I could have sworn you were recruiting from neutral alliances just a while ago. Aren't you guys suppose to be all evil and devious?

I personally don't support the destruction of communities. As that's not evil, nor devious, it's just petty and bullying.

Sorry, but Sith have standards.

I can't believe you think MK would shred any of its allies over Polar's desire to enforce "community standards". We didn't have a choice in this, it was forced upon us, despite our pleas.

Oh how silly of me, I should have known Polar had a sudden revelation and realized MK's side of the web are evil enablers. You'd think they would have cancelled on us and RoK first, or were they just trying to save us with this move? Thank god for daddy.

If Polaris wasn't enough to get \m/ to capitulate properly like it did with GOONs, you should have helped to make sure it happened. The reason Polaris didn't take any other actions, as Grub has previously stated, is because there were no other avenues available for him to make his stance clear.

Grub did say that if Polaris had any other methods to express it's outrage with \m/, such as having a treaty to cancel, they would have been taken instead. But they didn't, and \m/ never even paid reps, so it's not difficult to see why Grub wasn't satisfied with how things turned out.

Maybe you should have helped him out on that front, rather than throwing up your hands and telling him that he'd just have to let them go?

[Stonewall14]

I am glad you personally are ashamed. I have always been ashamed that you were in STA, so I am glad to see the feelings are reciprocated.

You know nothing about CnG.

The feeling is mutual punk and I was in FLY and lead our forces in defense of MK and was last one to surrender in the Hyperion War whatever it was called...Anytime you want some come get some as your gums flapping is why past the boring part...

[Bob]

The feeling is mutual punk and I was in FLY and lead our forces in defense of MK and was last one to surrender in the Hyperion War whatever it was called...Anytime you want some come get some as your gums flapping is why past the boring part...

I note how you don't offer to do something yourself. If you wish to take this up in a different setting, then you may do so personally. I'm fine with calling a spade a spade if you don't choose to.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[TehChron]

You didn't Chron?

Hey, what can I say, I guess I just don't know stupid stuff.

[D34th]

I don't know what view you have on offensive clauses, but if they're written on a treaty, I'm guessing it's because they were intended on being used. FOK supported their ally. The only reason I'm criticizing you is because you held all they keys: you were the one who could have refrained from doing this, and you were the one who could have settled it with peace before it escalated. In both instances, ego's prevailed.

Hey, MK likes war just as much as the next guy (even more than most), but the thought of attacking an ally's ally never really appealed to us as a good way to rid ourselves of boredom. We're just silly like that. (inb4 BUT MK IT WAS AN ALLY OF AN ALLY OF AN ALLY)

We tried to get peace, and peace was reached with GOONS, if \m/ failed to be polite and couldn't act like adults do not blame our ego for the war, we don't asked for reparations or oustrageous surrender terms, we just asked for \m/ follow thier charter who is in acordance with community standards of do not mass raid alliance. We tried to be fair and if you can't see that so you are a lost case for me.

[Seerow]

Wait, what? You are at two chains away from \m/. Both FOK and yourselves have a choice. From your comments here I take it you're going to take the wrong one as well?

Okay now consider this for a minute:

1) Polar starts the war agressively against \m/. I personally support this because \m/ are scum and deserve to die. Polar at this point says they are not calling in any allies and waive any treaty obligations going so far as to say this includes if the war escalates. (They also assumed it would not escalate past PC but that's their judgement error)

2) PC enters against Polar in defense of \m/, just like Polar wanted. Another retarded move in expanding the war, but not an unexpected one.

3) NpO while negotiating peace terms refuses to end the war because of the difference between "wrong" and "not appropriate", thus prolonging the war. This is the point where NpO lost my support, and many others. There was a golden chance here that was let go over two goddamn words.

4) FOK enters the war through their oA clause from their treaty with PC, thus escalating once again. This was another stupid move, but given how the whole peace talks went I can understand it at this point.

5) NSO attacks FOK.

So here we have two alliances we are directly treatied to being attacked, thus both of our defense clauses are active. However NpO has waived their treaty obligations publicly, so we are left with one clear manner of entry into the war as of my posting. FOK had a choice, MK really does not at this point.

[delendum]

I personally don't support the destruction of communities. As that's not evil, nor devious, it's just petty and bullying.

Sorry, but Sith have standards.

If Polaris wasn't enough to get \m/ to capitulate properly like it did with GOONs, you should have helped to make sure it happened. The reason Polaris didn't take any other actions, as Grub has previously stated, is because there were no other avenues available for him to make his stance clear.

Grub did say that if Polaris had any other methods to express it's outrage with \m/, such as having a treaty to cancel, they would have been taken instead. But they didn't, and \m/ never even paid reps, so it's not difficult to see why Grub wasn't satisfied with how things turned out.

Maybe you should have helped him out on that front, rather than throwing up your hands and telling him that he'd just have to let them go?

Just because Grub suddenly felt inspired to voluntarily launch himself on a crusade, we were obliged to think the same way he did? I don't remember MK ever signing the world police petition, and I doubt we would have signed this treaty had we known that's what they planned on doing. Even so, it could all have been settled by reaching peace before it ever got to this point, if not for the power of semantics jump starting his ego into overdrive once more.

What it comes down to in the end is that bashing \m/ mattered more to them than putting their allies in this position.

[TehChron]

Just because Grub suddenly felt inspired to voluntarily launch himself on a crusade, we were obliged to think the same way he did? I don't remember MK ever signing the world police petition, and I doubt we would have signed this treaty had we known that's what they planned on doing. Even so, it could all have been settled by reaching peace before it ever got to this point, if not for the power of semantics jump starting his ego into overdrive once more.

What it comes down to in the end is that bashing \m/ mattered more to them than putting their allies in this position.

It's not like this is a first time thing. You all were more than happy to placate Grub when Athens pulled this crap. What made \m/ not worth the effort?

[Seerow]

It's not like this is a first time thing. You all were more than happy to placate Grub when Athens pulled this crap. What made \m/ not worth the effort?

Are you really stupid enough to think we didn't try? Are you really trying to say we just let Grub walk into this, did nothing about it, in some elaborate plot to betray them?

I really thought you were smarter than that.

[Micheal Malone]

It's not like this is a first time thing. You all were more than happy to placate Grub when Athens pulled this crap. What made \m/ not worth the effort?

Could you point me to the announcement where MK signed a treaty with \m/? I must have missed that one.

[delendum]

We tried to get peace, and peace was reached with GOONS, if \m/ failed to be polite and couldn't act like adults do not blame our ego for the war, we don't asked for reparations or oustrageous surrender terms, we just asked for \m/ follow thier charter who is in acordance with community standards of do not mass raid alliance. We tried to be fair and if you can't see that so you are a lost case for me.

Wait, hold on a bit. Fair by whose standards? If my memory serves me right, the whole raiding incident was settled to everyone's satisfaction well before Polaris declared on \m/. Like it or not, it was just a matter of what YOU considered fair, and I don't see why the rest of the world has to abide by your views on that.

Alas, I was referring to reaching peace after you had already declared on \m/, which believe it or not would have been attained and we could've all went home, had it not been wrong instead of not appropriate written on the piece of paper.

Though yeah, you could consider me a lost case by this point, there is no way you'll get me to agree your actions so far were justified.

[Rush Sykes]

Could you point me to the announcement where MK signed a treaty with \m/? I must have missed that one.

Shh...they will announce it later today...You are killing their opportunism.

[Branimir]

*Do not attack our allies, allies.*

This was made clear by MKers and its their attitude to have. Maybe its not most on topic, but can you explain this mentality to me further.

It comes down to you, being allied to people your allies allied. That is essentially, how you are acting. I do not understand that, you can be an ally to someone if you have such arrangement with them, via written or verbal arrangement.

You do not have such, with allies of allies, in this case with metal alliance. Not even that, many of you expressed some negative comments about their actions in this mess and weren't overly joyed by them in general. But you will, bat for them, because one of your allies, allied them and due to that you will go/try to limit your other direct allies actions?

Now, this would make sense if every of your allies, first comes to you to get a green light on who they can ally or not, otherwise, is a mess of a policy. You can get ties as such with any bad rubbish.

I now see, how MK is actually taking offense in NpO attacking an ally of an ally. Why? If your direct ally feels that is to be course taken against someone you have no ties with, what is this grievous offense to you then? No, you do not have any connection to metal alliance, your ally has. And even they, yet, didn't acted in any way (RoK) and just called all sides stupid.

If we all adopted this ally of an ally or whatever mentality, in this overly connected world, really there would be no war, ever.

I hope though, the new Gremlings are paying attention to this all, heh. Good thing you have that MHA treaty otherwise,...man in a world of current mentalities you would be complete free game and everybody stopping the tech raid of you would get stomped by allies ally mentality.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Branimir

[delendum]

It's not like this is a first time thing. You all were more than happy to placate Grub when Athens pulled this crap. What made \m/ not worth the effort?

I don't even know how to reply to this. MK has spent the last few days doing nothing else but trying to reason with Polaris, through any means we had available. And not for the sake of \m/, which most us don't really give a $%&@ about, but for the sake of not finding ourselves in this retarded situation we are in now. As you can plainly see, it all fell on deaf ears.

[TehChron]

Are you really stupid enough to think we didn't try? Are you really trying to say we just let Grub walk into this, did nothing about it, in some elaborate plot to betray them?

I really thought you were smarter than that.

No, I'm simply asking why MK was able to get Athens to back off, but decided that \m/ wasn't worth the effort of getting some kind of punitive action secured, while fully aware that Grub was serious about his threats (again).

What made the two situations so different? I'm sure you guys could have done more to stop this war from happening than you did, but didn't for whatever reason. Hell, securing anything would have been a complete improvement over the results MK had to show for whatever diplomacy they attempted.

[deth2munkies]

Are you really stupid enough to think we didn't try? Are you really trying to say we just let Grub walk into this, did nothing about it, in some elaborate plot to betray them?

I really thought you were smarter than that.

You're not betraying them, but you're being colossally thick.

I don't really give a damn which side you would have come in on if it hadn't been like this. As I'm reading this: with your support, Vanguard unilaterally treatied another bloc (thus, thanks to the MADP of CnG, treaties YOUR WHOLE BLOC to another bloc) filled to the brim with incompetent people (alright, a couple guys in iFOK are OK), all to get into a certain side of a war.

I don't know 100% if this was sanctioned by all of CnG (it just looks like it in public which can be deceiving), if not, you need to take a hard look at Vanguard. If it was, I think I just lost any and all respect I may have had for CnG as a whole and the colossal amount I had for MK.

[Micheal Malone]

No, I'm simply asking why MK was able to get Athens to back off, but decided that \m/ wasn't worth the effort of getting some kind of punitive action secured, while fully aware that Grub was serious about his threats (again).

What made the two situations so different? I'm sure you guys could have done more to stop this war from happening than you did, but didn't for whatever reason. Hell, securing anything would have been a complete improvement over the results MK had to show for whatever diplomacy they attempted.

So you're saying you had a spare World Police costume, wanted MK to play dressup, and they didn't only attempting to try and talk you OUT of said costumes?

[Seerow]

*Do not attack our allies, allies.*

This was made clear by MKers and its their attitude to have. Maybe its not most on topic, but can you explain this mentality to me further.

I have no idea where this came from. It was always "Do not attack your own allies allies", in the very beginning it was all about RoK and \m/, yet somehow people got the idea MKers were upset about MKs position. At that point in time the war had not escalated to the point where MK was involved at all, we were merely pointing out how !@#$%* it was to attack an ally's ally, because we had been put in the exact same situation recently, and were sympathetic about it.

I actually personally supported the war, along with many others who are now against it, until peace was not signed over the difference between "wrong" and "not appropriate". That sort of semantic argument is not worth dragging out this conflict, nor letting the world burn.

That said I have no problem whatsoever getting those we actually care about out of the fight and letting everyone beat on \m/ for the rest of eternity. Somehow I don't see that as happening though.

I hope though, the new Gremlings are paying attention to this all, heh. Good thing you have that MHA treaty otherwise,...man in a world of current mentalities you would be complete free game and everybody stepping the tech raid of you would get stomped by allies ally mentality.

Except nobody would be stupid enough to tech raid them, there is no possible way it would end profitably.

[TehChron]

I don't even know how to reply to this. MK has spent the last few days doing nothing else but trying to reason with Polaris, through any means we had available. And not for the sake of \m/, which most us don't really give a $%&@ about, but for the sake of not finding ourselves in this retarded situation we are in now. As you can plainly see, it all fell on deaf ears.

Clearly the problem wasn't only with Polaris, moreover, what measures were taken to reprimand \m/ like you did with Athens? Surely you could have pulled some strings that would have allowed Grub's point to get across. Sure as hell would have been less of a mess than the current situation.

Could you point me to the announcement where MK signed a treaty with \m/? I must have missed that one.

That is a hilarious response. Thank you for making me laugh.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

It's not like this is a first time thing. You all were more than happy to placate Grub when Athens pulled this crap. What made \m/ not worth the effort?

CnG (specifically MK and GR) did attempt to talk him out of war, but to no avail.

[Bob]

No, I'm simply asking why MK was able to get Athens to back off, but decided that \m/ wasn't worth the effort of getting some kind of punitive action secured, while fully aware that Grub was serious about his threats (again).

What made the two situations so different? I'm sure you guys could have done more to stop this war from happening than you did, but didn't for whatever reason. Hell, securing anything would have been a complete improvement over the results MK had to show for whatever diplomacy they attempted.

You have no idea how much MK tried to end this. Stop being ridiculous. The fact that we don't control our allies prevented us from doing that.

We secured a day of negotiation for Grub. He blew it with his "not appropriate v wrong" debate with them. MagicalTrevor, Archon, and our government worked their collectives @#$% off to stop this.

[TehChron]

CnG (specifically MK and GR) did attempt to talk him out of war, but to no avail.

What measures were taken to handle things with reprimanding \m/? That is what I am asking. MK did it with Athens to stop a war before it happened, what made this time so different?

So you're saying you had a spare World Police costume, wanted MK to play dressup, and they didn't only attempting to try and talk you OUT of said costumes?

I didn't know we Sith were playing World Police.