Boom went the monkey

[LiquidMercury]

So I had to look to iFOK to find a shared observation, but pretty much this.

It seems that Reyne and Ramirus are the only two of the six that MOTU has bothered to attack. The other four are getting off on a glorified tech raid.

Haven't ever stated anything otherwise. Even though I have indeed been testing data. MOTU has stated that he has personal reasons (not nice personal reasons) for hitting Reyne/Ramirus.

[Omas Nams]

Gotta get what you can

[Bob Janova]

I think you are overestimating the impact of your sheer damage strategy because the victim nations in your plan are going to be veterans in reasonably high NS tiers who have already been around the block a few times are probably used to be being knocked around in various wars.

6 700-infra nukes is over 4000 infra and land (about 20,000 NS). I doubt mid-tier nations are going to be happy in an alliance where that is a likely outcome (either due to the rogue attacking them or being called upon to defend a mate).

[Style #386]

Haven't ever stated anything otherwise. Even though I have indeed been testing data. MOTU has stated that he has personal reasons (not nice personal reasons) for hitting Reyne/Ramirus.

I know you haven't actually stated otherwise, but a good deal of the "excitement" garnered by this event would be to see two large nations duking it out. Instead, we have a giant nation pounding on two smaller ones while four other nations pound the large one in return unmolested.

I would personally prefer to see a no-holds barred 1v1 between you and MOTU.

[WarriorConcept]

I know you haven't actually stated otherwise, but a good deal of the "excitement" garnered by this event would be to see two large nations duking it out. Instead, we have a giant nation pounding on two smaller ones while four other nations pound the large one in return unmolested.

I would personally prefer to see a no-holds barred 1v1 between you and MOTU.

People don't produce good gladiator fights like I used to.

[LiquidMercury]

I know you haven't actually stated otherwise, but a good deal of the "excitement" garnered by this event would be to see two large nations duking it out. Instead, we have a giant nation pounding on two smaller ones while four other nations pound the large one in return unmolested.

I would personally prefer to see a no-holds barred 1v1 between you and MOTU.

Well once I get to my rogue point then you'll get to see one large nation take on an alliance, and win.

[jer]

6 700-infra nukes is over 4000 infra and land (about 20,000 NS). I doubt mid-tier nations are going to be happy in an alliance where that is a likely outcome (either due to the rogue attacking them or being called upon to defend a mate).

There are those numbers again. I have already indicated that I think focusing on emotional damage is a more effective way of hurting an alliance than simply totting up the amount of infra you can destroy. As I believe using pure numbers to hurt an alliance is a poor way of doing things it is rather odd that you'd try to use them to convince me on this, but ho hum.

And obviously mid/high tier nations are not going to be happy about it. I'm just saying, I think the mid/low ranges would be made more unhappy, and are therefore better targets for the purpose of roguery.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[LiquidMercury]

There are those numbers again. I have already indicated that I think focusing on emotional damage is a more effective way of hurting an alliance than simply totting up the amount of infra you can destroy. As I believe using pure numbers to hurt an alliance is a poor way of doing things it is rather odd that you'd try to use them to convince me on this, but ho hum.

And obviously mid/high tier nations are not going to be happy about it. I'm just saying, I think the mid/low ranges would be made more unhappy, and are therefore better targets for the purpose of roguery.

If I'm going to do emotional warfare (which I will) I have much more planned then just targeting their low/mid tier nations that will be more effective.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Add in the fact that I currently have 22 other people promised to go rogue with me then I'd say things will go pretty well.

Idea!

Whatever the date of you and your friends going rogue can be National Rogue Day. Then, every year on that date, we can have all the people who want to quit CN go rogue. It can be an annual event! The first CN-wide holiday.

[Arcades057]

20,000 tech = 100,000 NS and that's hardly mid-level. With 22,000 tech, encountering people who can lop off about 75 tech per nuke, that's 450 technology lost on nukes alone, not counting the 7 per CM and call it, what, 15 per ground attack, 30 per defeat alert? So...

450 for nukes

294 for CMs

180 for the initial 2 days of ground attacks, if successful

150 for the ensuing 5 days of defeat alerts, because rogues always wind up turtling

So that's a net loss of 1074 technology, using conservative estimates. One round of wars and LM is down to sub-21000 technology, which is still in the 100,000 NS range from tech alone, not counting the infrastructure, land, and any other potential NS bonuses.

So basically, he would remain well within the range of 100k+ nations to hit for quite some time, therefore encountering, as Aimee Mann already quite succinctly pointed out, other very large, very experienced nations with likewise very large warchests, doing an amazing bit of damage that might take the nation a month or two to recover from, not counting the foreign aid-based limitations on tech procurement. Such damage could conceivably neuter a small alliance, if the attacked nations were their banks or nation-building funders, but in the great scheme of things--say it was directed at an alliance like GGA or ODN or NpO to use 3 examples--it would have very little long-term effect.

As already pointed out, the greater effect would come from the lower levels, destroying fledgling nations and ruining recruitment of an alliance. All this can be easily proven by asking Matt Miller how badly he was hurt after people went rogue on him, or by asking Reyne in a month how her nation is doing. Now open up your alliance's war forum and browse through your lowest battalion's aid requests to see just how immediate their desire for aid and help is.

[Drai]

It has been my experience, that a lot of people in the top tier outside of citadel and Gre, are not so great at fighting (though there have been failures on cit/gre as well in the top tier, just % wise much lower). Everyone claims that we are the stat huggers but you don't see our large nations surrendering in wars, you see others doing so.

It's going to seem like I'm only here to knitpick your thread, but what wars have Citadel members been in where there would be any need to surrender?

I really do believe that top tier Citadel nations are on par with or better prepared for war than other top tier nations out there, but I just don't think that was a great example to use to prove it.

Edited January 17, 2010 by Drai

[Zoomzoomzoom]

GGA already surrendered to a single rogue once. He only had 9k tech/infra and ~700 million.

That took two rounds of war...LM would take 1-2 days to finish them off.

[Matt Miller]

All this can be easily proven by asking Matt Miller how badly he was hurt after people went rogue on him, or by asking Reyne in a month how her nation is doing. Now open up your alliance's war forum and browse through your lowest battalion's aid requests to see just how immediate their desire for aid and help is.

I've lost 30k infra and 10k tech via war over the years and I think I'm doing fine these days. I've never once requested any sort of war aid or rebuilding aid (which would just be ludicrous at this level). It's pretty easy to rebuild once you have all the wonders and as my Mars wonders keep aging I guess it will just keep getting easier.

I'm not sure I'd still be here were it not for the Karma war, but if I were I'd be over 250k NS with near 30k tech and approximately a 12 billion dollar warchest. All of these things may not have happened since like I said I may have been gone by now. The Karma war definitely served to keep me interested in the game so I'm glad it happened on a personal level.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I've lost 30k infra and 10k tech via war over the years and I think I'm doing fine these days. I've never once requested any sort of war aid or rebuilding aid (which would just be ludicrous at this level). It's pretty easy to rebuild once you have all the wonders and as my Mars wonders keep aging I guess it will just keep getting easier.

I'm not sure I'd still be here were it not for the Karma war, but if I were I'd be over 250k NS with near 30k tech and approximately a 12 billion dollar warchest. All of these things may not have happened since like I said I may have been gone by now. The Karma war definitely served to keep me interested in the game so I'm glad it happened on a personal level.

How much did you lose in the Karma war alone? Were you also not able to purchase tech during surrender terms?

[Matt Miller]

How much did you lose in the Karma war alone? Were you also not able to purchase tech during surrender terms?

Almost 24k infra and 7k tech were destroyed during the one month of war and I then spent 3.5 months sending out rebuilding aid and reps funding with almost no incoming tech.

[MOTU-Man]

So I had to look to iFOK to find a shared observation, but pretty much this.

It seems that Reyne and Ramirus are the only two of the six that MOTU has bothered to attack. The other four are getting off on a glorified tech raid.

land ftw