The Coincidence Coalition

[Lincongrad]

How about because:

[00:21] <Desperado`> Its pretty simple: White peace, thats it.

[00:22] <Desperado`> Final Offer.

EDIT: My bad, forgot Desperado was in TPF.

They changed their minds when they had people at their backs. I would have too.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Lincongrad

[Nizzle]

Actually what happened was, after lengthy peace talks, concessions were being made by 'Suplercomplaints' (hereafter called The Beatles). Desperado said white peace or nothing, then the entire TPF delegation walked out save for him. The Beatles were agreeing to white peace, at which point Desperado said things were going nowhere and also walked out.

Really the only parallel is what happened during the early negotiations of the last war.

From where I'm sitting I see a few things:

1. White peace was offered immediately prior to update.

2. The guilt of TPF was a term which was dropped, yet Hoo made the statement about their CB being valid.

3. TPF may have (I can see it happening) assumed they would have had to hash out the issue again.

4. TPF knew their allies were coming in.

5. The Beatles knew that TPF's allies were coming in.

6. TPF felt perhaps it would be easier to negotiate after presenting their long expected allies to the war, especially after interpreting Hoo's comment as a sign of continued resistance down the road. (Presenting the white peace neutrally)

7. The Beatles hoped TPF would walk away, giving epic PR advantage (which is basically worthless, the sides are so steadfast in their own beliefs it isn't really funny.)

I still think that after days of negotiation, the drama here, their allies being ready...Hoo's comment may have just set them off.

Sorry I must have misunderstood.

We agreed to white peace with an admission of intent.

Tonight we dropped the admission of intent and they still walked away.

Either that or I misunderstood. Thanks though.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Nizzle

[Doitzel]

White Peace is a straight peace without terms. An admission of guilt on TPF's part is a surrender TERM.

So do a little Find and Replace and turn "White Peace" into "Terms we Believe to be Light" and lets move on.

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> You know what? ... I am fine with white peace as long as it's worded in a mutually favorable way

[23:25] <Big_Z[GOD]> Fine, then white peace?

[23:26] <ComradeGoby> \m/ agrees with white peace

[23:26] <EmperorMarx> Aye.

[23:28] <Desperado`> Ok, this doesnt seem to have gotten anywhere

[Doitzel]

The peace negotiations were unlikely to bring the end that TPF desired, EG compensation for their time at war. Therefore, the peace negotiations were not productive in TPF's eyes.

[23:21] <Desperado`> Its pretty simple: White peace, thats it.

[23:22] <Desperado`> Final Offer.

[rsoxbronco1]

The peace negotiations were unlikely to bring the end that TPF desired, EG compensation for their time at war. Therefore, the peace negotiations were not productive in TPF's eyes.

Athens/Rok stated that we would ask for zero reps. TPF asked for straight white peace. They talked us down from 2 weeks of war and an admission of guilt. I'd call that pretty productive. It would appear that certain elements in TPF are more interested in expanding the war than they are in the straight white peace we agreed to.

Double standards are funny. They accuse us of not doing enough diplomacy before the war, but once we start our expectations are merely reinforced.

[Nizzle]

There was a 2 hour discussion tonight starting around 10:30 PM EST. 15 minutes in we all got the impression that TPF was stonewalling and they proved it when they told us the only thing they would accept was full white peace with 8 minutes to go before the DoWs. In the interest of preventing a spread of the war, Rok, GOD, \m/, and Athens all decided "yes".

Unfortunately, after 2 hours of discussion, they literally could not wait 4 minutes for Athens to discuss it internally after I asked them to "Hold". We check back after the usual private chan discussion only to see that TPF had decided to leave after Rok, GOD, and \m/ had all agreed to white peace with Athens about to post our agreement too.

I thought you all agreed (Athens&Co) to white peace over 24 hours ago, as indicated in the summary I initially quoted to which you responded to...

The lack of wars only proves how unnecessary it was for the Coalition to declare at all, whether goaded to by others or not. In such a situation, it is always preferably to walk softly and carry a big stick. Actually attacking has managed to diminish the perceived influence of this Coalition. This isn't punishment, it's a laughing stock. It would have been far more influential to get all those alliances together to force a resolution - which was more than readily available. Heck, that way they would have gotten even more alliances to work towards peace, if that was really their goal. Instead, they sent TPF to "negotiate" and we got this. I don't really blame TPF, I guess it doesn't surprise me, but I am shaking my head at the myriad of alliances who actually went through with this stupidity.

What the OP presented this Coalition to be, and what they have actually done, are two entirely different things.

Sounds like you have some background or an axe to grind. If it's background, do share.

[Lincongrad]

[23:21] <Desperado`> Its pretty simple: White peace, thats it.

[23:22] <Desperado`> Final Offer.

TPF wants to take what it can get. Before CC joined, what they thought they could get was white peace. Now, after CC joining, they think they can get more. They view the CB as unjustified and want retribution.

[rsoxbronco1]

From where I'm sitting I see a few things:

1. White peace was offered immediately prior to update.

2. The guilt of TPF was a term which was dropped, yet Hoo made the statement about their CB being valid.

3. TPF may have (I can see it happening) assumed they would have had to hash out the issue again.

4. TPF knew their allies were coming in.

5. The Beatles knew that TPF's allies were coming in.

6. TPF felt perhaps it would be easier to negotiate after presenting their long expected allies to the war, especially after interpreting Hoo's comment as a sign of continued resistance down the road. (Presenting the white peace neutrally)

7. The Beatles hoped TPF would walk away, giving epic PR advantage (which is basically worthless, the sides are so steadfast in their own beliefs it isn't really funny.)

I still think that after days of negotiation, the drama here, their allies being ready...Hoo's comment may have just set them off.

Yes, because we totally expected them to have learned nothing from NPO's stunt earlier this summer. If we expected them to walk away at the end, you can bet I wouldn't have wasted so much time on talks.

ooc: Sure the Florida game was a blowout, but I'd have rather paid more attention to that.

[Lincongrad]

Athens/Rok stated that we would ask for zero reps. TPF asked for straight white peace. They talked us down from 2 weeks of war and an admission of guilt. I'd call that pretty productive. It would appear that certain elements in TPF are more interested in expanding the war than they are in the straight white peace we agreed to.

Stop lumping me in with the other people you're arguing with. I agree. TPF has every interest in keeping the war going. They want revenge.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Lincongrad

[Nizzle]

Athens/Rok stated that we would ask for zero reps. TPF asked for straight white peace. They talked us down from 2 weeks of war and an admission of guilt. I'd call that pretty productive. It would appear that certain elements in TPF are more interested in expanding the war than they are in the straight white peace we agreed to.

Double standards are funny. They accuse us of not doing enough diplomacy before the war, but once we start our expectations are merely reinforced.

Not enough diplomacy meaning none at all? Incidentally, TPF didn't expand the war. I'm not sure how they could physically do that since you attacked them and then demanded their friends enter.

Also, your expectations?

[rsoxbronco1]

I thought you all agreed (Athens&Co) to white peace over 24 hours ago, as indicated in the summary I initially quoted to which you responded to...

Sorry I must have misunderstood.

We agreed to white peace with an admission of intent.

Tonight we dropped the admission of intent and they still walked away.

[Nizzle]

Yes, because we totally expected them to have learned nothing from NPO's stunt earlier this summer. If we expected them to walk away at the end, you can bet I wouldn't have wasted so much time on talks.

ooc: Sure the Florida game was a blowout, but I'd have rather paid more attention to that.

...why in the world would you conduct peace talks right before update when you know their friends are jumping in?

[camerontech]

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> You know what? ... I am fine with white peace as long as it's worded in a mutually favorable way

[23:25] <Big_Z[GOD]> Fine, then white peace?

[23:26] <ComradeGoby> \m/ agrees with white peace

[23:26] <EmperorMarx> Aye.

[23:28] <Desperado`> Ok, this doesnt seem to have gotten anywhere

[23:24:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> The CB was valid to us and we attacked you, it was never intended to be a long affair

[23:24:41] <Big_Z[GOD]> Fine, then white peace?

[23:24:44] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We fought for awhile, like I told JBone we would ... and I am cool with that

[23:25:01] <ComradeGoby> \m/ agrees with white peace

[23:25:08] <EmperorMarx> Aye.

[23:25:10] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And I want it understood that we were not part of some nefarious plan to attack anyone else

It can be the smallest of things that can make a guy walk out of peace talks, especially when he knows the reinforcements are coming.

[rsoxbronco1]

TPF wants to take what it can get. Before CC joined, what they thought they could get was white peace. Now, after CC joining, they think they can get more. They view the CB as unjustified and want retribution.

TPF is getting attacked non-stop and the rest of the planet is in peacemode. I'm not sure how they're going to gain more than they lose by holding out.

[Doitzel]

I still think that after days of negotiation, the drama here, their allies being ready...Hoo's comment may have just set them off.

I think it's more likely they didn't expect white peace to be accepted and didn't want to have to carry the news back to the coalition that's been twiddling its thumbs for the past week.

TPF wants to take what it can get. Before CC joined, what they thought they could get was white peace. Now, after CC joining, they think they can get more. They view the CB as unjustified and want retribution.

Fascinating. I refresh the page and the goal posts shifted twenty metres leftward!

[Nizzle]

I think it's more likely they didn't expect white peace to be accepted and didn't want to have to carry the news back to the coalition that's been twiddling its thumbs for the past week.

I think it's more likely no one will ever agree, but the hardcore believers on each side will believe their own version until death.

[Doitzel]

...why in the world would you conduct peace talks right before update when you know their friends are jumping in?

...To stop the war from escalating?? Remember that Hoo quote you're so fond of?

[23:24:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> The CB was valid to us and we attacked you, it was never intended to be a long affair

[23:24:41] <Big_Z[GOD]> Fine, then white peace?

[23:24:44] <VanHooIII[RoK]> We fought for awhile, like I told JBone we would ... and I am cool with that

[23:25:01] <ComradeGoby> \m/ agrees with white peace

[23:25:08] <EmperorMarx> Aye.

[23:25:10] <VanHooIII[RoK]> And I want it understood that we were not part of some nefarious plan to attack anyone else

It can be the smallest of things that can make a guy walk out of peace talks, especially when he knows the reinforcements are coming.

Speaking of small things...

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> You know what? ... I am fine with white peace as long as it's worded in a mutually favorable way

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I'm just tired of arguing about it

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> The CB was valid to us and we attacked you, it was never intended to be a long affair

[bigwoody]

They accuse us of not doing enough diplomacy before the war

Correction, you're accused of not doing ANY diplomacy before the war.

[rsoxbronco1]

...why in the world would you conduct peace talks right before update when you know their friends are jumping in?

They weren't conducted right before update. They started 2.5 hours before update as a continuation of previous talks. If you want to escalate, that's fine, but don't jerk us around only to give us the only terms you'll accept without enough time for us to react if you're serious about peace.

If TPF had told us at 10:30 PM EST when talks started that they would only accept straight white peace, we'd attempt counteroffers, but we'd have the time to agree. Walking out when we start to accept is poor form.

[Lincongrad]

Fascinating. I refresh the page and the goal posts shifted twenty metres leftward!

From the statement you quoted:

TPF wants to take what it can get. Before CC joined, what they thought they could get was white peace. Now, after CC joining, they think they can get more. They view the CB as unjustified and want retribution

From my first post on the subject:

Why is everyone assuming that TPF is going for the moral high ground and wanting to be little angels here? They're continuing the war to get back at what they see as their attackers. TPF viewed the CB as unjust, or at least unfortunate, and wanted to get out if possible. Hence their initial requests for white peace. Then when their backing showed up TPF wanted revenge/justice(depending on your perspective) for the war and so decided not to go for white peace. They had the ability to exact what they saw as justice, and so are pursuing it. That's how it works.

Beyond a mental thesaurus, not much change.

[rsoxbronco1]

I think it's more likely no one will ever agree, but the hardcore believers on each side will believe their own version until death.

Sure people can believe the world is flat if they want to, I'm not stopping anyone.

[Doitzel]

I think it's more likely no one will ever agree, but the hardcore believers on each side will believe their own version until death.

You'll never convince me of the futility of spreading truth.

[WorkingClassRuler]

Sounds like you have some background or an axe to grind. If it's background, do share.

Hmm, it's probably a little of both. What, specifically, made you ask?

[camerontech]

...To stop the war from escalating?? Remember that Hoo quote you're so fond of?

Speaking of small things...

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> You know what? ... I am fine with white peace as long as it's worded in a mutually favorable way

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> I'm just tired of arguing about it

[23:25] <VanHooIII[RoK]> The CB was valid to us and we attacked you, it was never intended to be a long affair

We could go in circles. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the fact that anything, especially if they viewed themselves as having the upper hand, could make them walk out. Something as simple as him stating that the CB was valid or wanting it to be understood that they never wanted to attack others.

That and there's a chance TPF never thought they would accept white peace that fast....

Edited January 2, 2010 by camerontech

[TehChron]

You know, to be bluntly honest, one shouldn't declare a war and not expect to be a little bloodied as a result.

I don't understand why there's complaining going on about the technicalities of having someone hit you back for attacking their friend a few days ago. But I suppose that accepting the repercussions of one's own pissing contests is a trait unique to the Sith.