Joint NATO/IRON/TOP Announcement

[Mr Havok]

We haven't been spinning anything. Like we've said, this isn't MK's war, this is MK's allies war. And we back our allies no matter what.

So by that logic it is your war, at least be a man and stop using silly sissy semantics. Be a man and stand up for your convictions

Seriously has the whole world gone crazy

[juslen]

It is quite amusing to watch you guys on both sides argue back and forth that neither have proof of anything. Have any of you stopped to actually analyze what your allies are claiming or analyze what your own government is telling you instead of blindly following it? I have yet to see a single IRON member or not even just specifically IRON, anyone from that hemisphere with a treaty with TPF speak out against them. And the same goes for anyone with a treaty with Athens or any of the alliances involved with that side of the war.

This is merely no coincidence, someone is wrong and a whole lot of people are doing a whole lot of blind following and disagreeing with the other side. There needs to be a lot less talking and whining about who has no proof and a lot more action if you feel that strongly about whatever it is you feel strongly about.

In all honesty its called propaganda. If one side repeats something enough certain people will start to believe it and soon it spreads like wildfire. All that is happening right now is people are trying to counter each other and every so often a few people with an open mind without any major bias sneak in and ask serious honest questions. Many of these people get buried in propaganda. I think the real progress is made in private but what fun is that especially for those who are itching for some type of action.

[Alterego]

When we went to war, rishnokof returned to our AA citing that fighting in a war would cure his boredom. Since rishnokof left us in good standing, we found that acceptable. Rishnokof then had his nation deleted and he advised us that it was due to too many [OOC]forum warns[OOC]. We had no reason to think otherwise.

When he said he was bored and wanted to do something, we assumed he was just going to go rogue on someone he didn't like as that seems to be the trend these days.

Assuming he was going rogue and keeping him in the alliance doesnt say too much about you guys either. If someone over said they were going rogue they would be booted out or talked out of it.

[Kzoppistan]

Reminds me of this story

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/274495936.html

Lol, indeed. I do love a good gloat when its warranted. Thanks for the link, I'm going to forward it to some friends.

[renegade4box]

Facts seem to be getting lost in the shuffle, so let's refresh. The following things are all confirmed as happening -

October - President Magee begins ghosting ODN AA.

November - President Magee nukes Grey Council and possibly others.

November - President Magee ghosts the NSO AA and sends NSO recruitment messages to TOP nations.

November 21st - President Magee applies to IRON. GC shares his history and IRON denies the application.

November 27th - President Magee applies to NATO and is accepted.

December 31st - President Magee ceases to exist.

During this span of time President Magee was under the control of rishnokof.

All of these are facts. You can debate other things but not these things.

That's cool. Can we get a topic like this for every multi that's ever discovered in the game? I don't see anything here that makes it more significant than other multi users. Hell, somebody even pointed out in the thread that a forum TOP GM got snagged for a multi, where is the thread about that?

[foxodi]

Be careful you dont pull a muscle reaching for that response

I was actually contemplating writing more but I realized theres a limit to reasonable speculation.

Given the evidence available in this thread I don't think its a far stretch at all; speaking in terms of probabilities

[heggo]

To be fair, the burden of proof is on the accuser. It's hard for Ragnarok to prove a negative. Based on the Unspeakable Evil's data set and the application screen shots, so there's no reason to think that Ragnarok government knew of this at all. That's what Ragnarok and her allies are saying, and it's a pretty logical thing to say.

At the same time, half the job of being a spy is to keep up some level of plausible deniability for your employer, and so long as that exists it's not as if Ragnarok would actually fess up to spying. Not that that proves they knew, of course, just that Hoo's posts probably deserve more skepticism than they're getting.

[Rafael Nadal]

Forgive me, I have not read anything other than the op and the first page.

First problem I see is that Mhawk was explicitly giving orders/conspiring to have ZH spy/infiltrate for him. It's clear in TPF's case, that their gov't, at least some high members, we're aware and involved in spying. TPF backed this.

Conversely, there is nothing here to show that Rok high gov't, or any gov't, was even aware of Rish's multi, or any potential spying Rish performed with his multi.

Secondly, this multi of Rish is older than Rok. Rok is not 1200 days old. If you were to believe Rish to be the main nation, and Pres. Magee to be the multi, then Rish was spying before Rok. If he was spying before Rok was created, then it is entirely logical to believe his intentions/desires had nothing to do with Rok, and thus Rok was kept in the dark the whole time.

[Jyrinx]

In all honesty its called propaganda. If one side repeats something enough certain people will start to believe it and soon it spreads like wildfire. All that is happening right now is people are trying to counter each other and every so often a few people with an open mind without any major bias sneak in and ask serious honest questions. Many of these people get buried in propaganda. I think the real progress is made in private but what fun is that especially for those who are itching for some type of action.

But propaganda has to at least be based on something that can be argued to be true. There is literally zero evidence suggesting Ragnarok gov is involved in this scheme; they quite literally made it up. This is their logic:

1) Ragnarok Member has a Multi

2) Said Multi tried to infiltrate alliances

3) Ragnarok Member was a former Triumvir

4) Conclusion: This entire thing is obviously a plot by Ragnarok gov.

It very well could be mind you. But the evidence is hardly overwhelming. Their propaganda is pathetic.

[Mr Havok]

Fair enough Heft, but this only makes Rish culpable. Ragnarok as far as I can tell didn't know of this at all. I'm not seeing anything suggesting that Ragnarok gov was involved in anything President Magee/Rish were doing.

Just curious are you expecting RnR to just wave a flag to all of us saying yes we knew it?

They use specious facts to start a war with TPF, and are clearly less then honorable, do YOU really expect them to just say

"Yup you caught us game over"

[AirMe]

All I see is that Rishnokof is culpable. Rather than insult me, how about you link to what evidence you think implicates RoK gov?

This is a lot friendlier than I was going to reply with. I agree.

[Jyrinx]

At the same time, half the job of being a spy is to keep up some level of plausible deniability for your employer, and so long as that exists it's not as if Ragnarok would actually fess up to spying. Not that that proves they knew, of course, just that Hoo's posts probably deserve more skepticism than they're getting.

Indeed, it very well could be the case that Ragnarok spied. Maybe their spy had an excellent cover story. But you can't just make accusations like that without backing it up. Conjecture is just that.

[Strykewolf]

Lol,

So RoK, who was spying, Is warring with TPF because they were spying.

Hmm, a little hypocritical?

Keep stretching. Something will snap, eventually.

It's actually quite amusing to see MK's usually good PR team try and spin the unspinnable. The evidence is irrefutable, the crime uncondonable. Keep up the good work lads.

There is no spin. Which may be why they are not trying to. Apples and Oranges.

If the evidence is irrefutable...and you feel that strongly about it. Then, declare.

((shrugs))

[Jyrinx]

Just curious are you expecting RnR to just wave a flag to all of us saying yes we knew it?

They use specious facts to start a war with TPF, and are clearly less then honorable, do YOU really expect them to just say

"Yup you caught us game over"

I don't understand what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok spied/infiltrated alliances.

And saying it's hard to prove whether or not an alliance spied on you (which is what I think you said with your first sentence) is not really proof that they spied on you <.<.

[Alterego]

If the evidence is irrefutable...and you feel that strongly about it. Then, declare.

((shrugs))

hes in peace mode its impossible

[The AUT]

I don't understand what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok spied/infiltrated alliances.

Are you kidding me?

[cncruzore85]

Read op, lol.

Didn't read any replies, my guess is;

MK|\m/|assorted lue4ch rejects: He wasn't spying for RoK, he was just advising them

Athens: agrees with above

Rok: *crickets*

[Jyrinx]

Are you kidding me?

No. Do explain what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok government spied on IRON/NATO/etc.

[Alterego]

I don't understand what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok spied/infiltrated alliances.

You really dont understand why their DoW on TPF for spying is being mentioned in a thread about a Rok spy?

[Jyrinx]

Read op, lol.

Didn't read any replies, my guess is;

MK|\m/|assorted lue4ch rejects: He wasn't spying for RoK, he was just advising them

Athens: agrees with above

Rok: *crickets*

Apparently he was an advisor, which holds no special power or masking and isn't a government position. So yeah... some random Ragnarok member tried to infiltrate alliances with multis and didn't tell Ragnarok government. That's the impression I'm getting.

I'm pretty easy to convince though: if someone shows me evidence that Ragnarok gov was involved, that would be great.

[Jacapo Saladin]

Indeed, it very well could be the case that Ragnarok spied. Maybe their spy had an excellent cover story. But you can't just make accusations like that without backing it up. Conjecture is just that.

You mean like all the evidence that Athens and RoK gave that TPF got any info from Athens and company?

[Mr Havok]

I don't understand what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok spied/infiltrated alliances.

And saying it's hard to prove whether or not an alliance spied on you (which is what I think you said with your first sentence) is not really proof that they spied on you <.<.

Considering i quoted something you said and responded to it, I would think your reading comprehension would be better.

You arent seeing it because you dont want to see it.

Again are you expecting them to just come out and say yes he was a spy and we knew it? Because going by the evidence and reality the guy was a spy with two accounts while being a trium of their alliance

[Mr Havok]

No. Do explain what the TPF CB has to do with whether or not Ragnarok government spied on IRON/NATO/etc.

You really arent a very good mouthpiece for your alliance

[Penkala]

Indeed, it very well could be the case that Ragnarok spied. Maybe their spy had an excellent cover story. But you can't just make accusations like that without backing it up. Conjecture is just that.

Oh thank admin, some sanity.

[Believland]

Just wondering guys:

Why did Rish join NATO if it wasn't to spy?