The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Kzoppistan]

By the logical extension of the arguments you have been using against us in Athens we are all ready at war with you.

Why the vote?

Unless there is some that would say TPF took the aggressive actions with subversive actions against us.

I'm sorry, I'm not really paying attention to the thread, if you cite which argument specifically of the many I've been using against Athens, I can respond better.

If you don't want to, just consider my response to be 'no u'.

Also, I suppose you're free to declare.

[King Srqt]

Hi. This is a lie. They were offered terms, and Karma was managed under the banner of STOPPING permanent war. No reasonable person would have concluded that an organization who considered permanent war the most egregious sin would submit TPF to eternal war.

/me sticks out his hand

Another straw?

You weren't having the same conversations with PC as me if you think mHawk did not have reason to believe TPF would be in eternal war.

[Captain Flinders]

Injustices of the past do not make present injustices any more tolerable.

Maybe so, but those who perpetrated the previous injustices have no room to complain about the same treatment being exacted upon themselves.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Penkala]

LOL heres another cup of kool aid drink up if you believe a word of what you just said.

Well seeing as I was involved with Karma, I do believe every damn word of what I just said. If you have proof TPF was to be kept in indefinite war that's fine, but you can't just say you "thought it might happen." Guess what, when the Hegemony rolled people *everyone* thought it might happen, and they actually had a REASON to think that it might happen. After having dozens of alliances let off with white peace and low reps you're telling me, that in JUNE (after everyone had been given peace, and terms were being worked out for TPF) they actually believed that they wouldn't get peace. Being delusional doesn't give you a defense.

And by your own standards any and every alliance who lost a war (alliances which had to be stupid not to be fearful of eternal war) could have set in plans to destroy your community from within, released them, and then taken peace for their other crimes and if they didn't mention this threat to your alliance, you'd have been fine with it?

You weren't having the same conversations with PC as me if you think mHawk did not have reason to believe TPF would be in eternal war.

That's because PC is PC. Based on the pattern - white peace for uninvolved alliances, reps for alliances who were intimately involved in the Hegemony, and no forced disbandments, it should be clear that they weren't facing eternal war.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Penkala

[JBone]

I wish people would stop calling this "spying" . Creating a sleeper cell , over a matter of months, to get close to another alliance , to recruit from , plant seeds of rebellion , merge with then attempt to break off splinter alliances and finally destroy goes well beyond spying.

This idea that was hatched by MHawk and others goes well beyond anything I would even consider during war or not.

This is a plot of long term terrorism , sabotage and just bad will that it astounds me that people will even accept that its ok anytime.

You really give this plot and it's creators to much credit.

ZH was planed well before the Karma war, not as a sleeper cell, but as a separate and distinct alliance containing some former members of TPF.

During the Karma war it was suggested by the soon to be ZH members that ZH could be used to influence those we were at war with if the war dragged on very long term, which was a real possibility given our stance and the way the Karma front on NPO was acting.

This influence would be gained by having a sympathetic ear close to vocal and influential members of the Karma front who had a history of readily merging/folding in smaller AAs....namely RoK and Athens.

Due to OOC shens during the Karma war, the now ZH members in on the plan decided to break off all ties to TPF and not follow through with said plan. During this time frame ZH actually became close to Athens and became a protectorate. Well before that happened, all ties between TPF and ZH had been severed.

All of this happened before TPF signed terms stating that we surrender to ALL of Karma and would pay reps to those who requested them. The plan was in effect for a few weeks at best and in no way, shape or form continued after terms were agreed to.

It was a stupid half arsed idea, concocted over skype calls, between a very small number of individuals, that died quickly and was not brought to light until more OOC shens turned it into an easy way to make us look bad.

amazing. TPF did not consider that true when they allowed a war to happen against Polaris. in fact, they dropped a treaty with Polaris and allowed Polaris to get rolled because some alliance believed that Polaris intended harm. now mind you it was all talk and nothing had happened beyond talking. but that was enough for TPF. now they are crying because they did the same thing as Polaris and are getting rolled like they allowed Polaris to get rolled.

We followed the path of our stronger treaties. Was what happened to Polaris right.....no, but we were hardly in a position to allow or dissallow anything.

...and no one is crying, unless you consider trying to defend ourselves from misinformed individuals such as yourself teary.

Wait, so are you saying mhawk's highly-trusted cabal never created ZH and got a protectorate with Athens?

By George! You've discovered parallel universes!

Highly-trusted cabal....you sir have quite the flair for the dramatic.

By the time ZH gained it's protectorate the cabal were not even on speaking terms with TPF, let alone highly trusted.

[Kevin McDonald]

Really folks, if we're looking for analogies it's quite simple, and I've said it before so bear with me:

I am going to tell 5 of my nations to attack any 5 members of any of your alliances, I'll pick Ronin randomly

If I tell 5 of my nations to attack 5 Ronin nations 2 months from now, and then 1 month from now those nations decide they don't want to do it and come clean to AirMe, would AirMe and myself be cool? Doubtful.

This is exactly what happened here.

[Thomas Jackson]

When one side says they want to end it, that means it's over. Where is the log from August 24th with them discussing it? That should be really easy to show, if they had it. If there was no further contact post-surrender terms, then it was ended then.

Not true. It's not over until both sides agree it's over. If one side wants it to end, that doesn't mean the other has to stop as well.

[thespoon]

Not sure if anyone else made this analogy (i'm not reading 70 effing pages of posts) but this is like the Smufs with the Smurfette scenario (brought to my attention through Donnie Darko)

Smurfette being created to join the smurfs and bring them down from the inside but was won over by the smurf's love and compassion. ZH you're the smurfette, Athens being the smurfs and TPF being Gargamel.

I'm not sure how much of this makes any sense but either way, I don't remember the smurfs going to all out war with Gargamel over the issue. They did what any group of men did: Argued over who gets to sleep with the hot blonde.

*Edit* Spelling

Edited December 28, 2009 by thespoon

[Alterego]

Maybe so, but those who perpetrated the previous injustices have no room to complain about the same treatment being exacted upon themselves.

Thats what they said during the Karma war, how many more years will they say that and can we say it when they get theirs.

[JBone]

Not true. It's not over until both sides agree it's over. If one side wants it to end, that doesn't mean the other has to stop as well.

.....if I give you my ex wifes # can you call her and explain that?

Silly TJ.

[Penkala]

This influence would be gained by having a sympathetic ear close to vocal and influential members of the Karma front who had a history of readily merging/folding in smaller AAs....namely RoK and Athens.

Hey, buddy, you can stop now. The logs leaked. We all know it was designed to destroy those alliances and split them apart, not get the ear of 'influential' members. This isn't debatable.

Not sure if anyone else made this analogy (i'm not reading 70 effing pages of posts) but this is like the Smufs with the Smurfette scenario (brought to my attention through Donnie Darko)

Smurfette being created to join the smurfs and bring them down from the inside but was won over by the smurf's love and compassion. DF you're the smurfette, Athens being the smurfs and TPF being Gargamel.

I'm not sure how much of this makes any sense but either way, I don't remember the smurfs going to all out war with Gargamel over the issue. They did what any group of men did: Argued over who gets to sleep with the hot blonde. awesome.gif

ooc: I hate the OWF and the people that post in it.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Penkala

[JBone]

Hey, buddy, you can stop now. The logs leaked. We all know it was designed to destroy those alliances and split them apart, not get the ear of 'influential' members. This isn't debatable.

So 3 guys from TPF were going to split RoK and Athens apart and destroy them?

Since we wield this amazing power, Rok, Athens, GOD and \m/ should probably surrender now.

[Thomas Jackson]

.....if I give you my ex wifes # can you call her and explain that?

Silly TJ.

Unfortunately for you, that's how marriage works. The same is not true of a war. If Hitler had gone, "OK, we give up now," during WW2 in hopes that the Allies would stop and leave him alone, do you think it would have happened? Of course not, they'd have kept going until he was removed as a threat. War does not end when one party decides it is over, both must agree that it is over.

[Doitzel]

LOL heres another cup of kool aid drink up if you believe a word of what you just said.

Session Start: Sun May 03 17:58:06 2009

Session Ident: Twisted

01[17:58] <Doitzel> hello

13[17:58] <Twisted> What's up Doitzel?

01[17:59] <Doitzel> I hear you are refusing to give Valhalla peace atm and just want to clarify that it's not a permanent thing and you just want to make sure they're good and thrashed before giving them not-too-harsh terms

01[17:59] <Doitzel> /longsentence

[18:01] <Twisted> Haha

[18:01] <Twisted> Wow I made one remark to Chefjoe and get query bombed by you and RV

[18:01] <Twisted> Yes, we'll give them a good beating and let them go

[18:01] <Twisted> there's no beef between PC and Valhalla

[18:03] <Twisted> You making sure Valhalla is alright after this war?

01[18:03] <Doitzel> I'm making sure everyone gets a fair deal. Except maybe NPO, they've slipped my mind

[18:03] <Twisted> Ahh

[18:03] <Twisted> Only TPF won't

[18:03] <Twisted> on our end

[18:03] <Twisted> that war will go for a while

01[18:04] <Doitzel> And yes RV and I always seem to wind up doing these things together. I need a less crazy sidekick...

[18:05] <Twisted> Hahaha

[18:05] <Twisted> I like RV

[18:05] <Twisted> always have

01[18:05] <Doitzel> oh me too

01[18:05] <Doitzel> he's still crazy

Session Close: Sun May 03 21:02:56 2009

Bolded part relevant. Had a similar conversation with Chinatownbus about TPF which I'm trying to dig up (OOC: think the logs are on my other PC).

[CreativName]

@Crimz, I think you got it spot on. Well done XD I understand it now.

[Crimius]

a couple of the more recent posts of course hold contradicting views, but this wouldn't be a discussion otherwise.

[AirMe]

Really folks, if we're looking for analogies it's quite simple, and I've said it before so bear with me:

I am going to tell 5 of my nations to attack any 5 members of any of your alliances, I'll pick Ronin randomly

If I tell 5 of my nations to attack 5 Ronin nations 2 months from now, and then 1 month from now those nations decide they don't want to do it and come clean to AirMe, would AirMe and myself be cool? Doubtful.

This is exactly what happened here.

I would crush you. Simple as that. Since I know you and like you, I might go into negotiations with you but if you were at all insolent, yeah, I would crush you.

[rsoxbronco1]

Not sure if anyone else made this analogy (i'm not reading 70 effing pages of posts) but this is like the Smufs with the Smurfette scenario (brought to my attention through Donnie Darko)

Smurfette being created to join the smurfs and bring them down from the inside but was won over by the smurf's love and compassion. DF you're the smurfette, Athens being the smurfs and TPF being Gargamel.

I'm not sure how much of this makes any sense but either way, I don't remember the smurfs going to all out war with Gargamel over the issue. They did what any group of men did: Argued over who gets to sleep with the hot blonde.

So you're saying we should call this the Smurf War. Sounds good.

[JBone]

Unfortunately for you, that's how marriage works. The same is not true of a war. If Hitler had gone, "OK, we give up now," during WW2 in hopes that the Allies would stop and leave him alone, do you think it would have happened? Of course not, they'd have kept going until he was removed as a threat. War does not end when one party decides it is over, both must agree that it is over.

Unfortunately for your argument we are not talking about ending a war.

We are talking about ending an arrangement between two parties that needs both parties actively on board for it to actually function as it was designed.

More like, if you quit your job, but your boss doesn't fire you....the end result is still, you don't work there any longer.

[angryraccoon]

I'm sorry, I'm not really paying attention to the thread, if you cite which argument specifically of the many I've been using against Athens, I can respond better.

If you don't want to, just consider my response to be 'no u'.

Also, I suppose you're free to declare.

What I meant was:

By the logical extension of the arguments "people" have been using against us in Athens we are all ready at war with you.

I am not going to go back through 70 pages of &#33;@#&#036; to see if you personally subscribed to that "theory"

If I must explain further people were trying to say that since we (Athens) declared on NPO then we were at war with TPF (even without a DoW on either side) must equal We DoW'd on TPF so are war with Zenith. So why a vote?

But then Penkala happily explained that it was not a vote about going to war with us yet on your inept war policies.

[lakerzz8]

Unfortunately for your argument we are not talking about ending a war.

We are talking about ending an arrangement between two parties that needs both parties actively on board for it to actually function as it was designed.

More like, if you quit your job, but your boss doesn't fire you....the end result is still, you don't work there any longer.

I'm sorry if I missed it, but are there logs of mhawk calling off ZH (aka firing them?). If all he did was stop talking to them, its like your boss just avoiding you. Technically, you still work there and he still wants you to work there, he's just not in the mood to talk to you. You're a good enough employee to work on your own from here on out, anyway.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Really folks, if we're looking for analogies it's quite simple, and I've said it before so bear with me:

I am going to tell 5 of my nations to attack any 5 members of any of your alliances, I'll pick Ronin randomly

If I tell 5 of my nations to attack 5 Ronin nations 2 months from now, and then 1 month from now those nations decide they don't want to do it and come clean to AirMe, would AirMe and myself be cool? Doubtful.

This is exactly what happened here.

Isn't it more like this:

You and Ronin are in a war. It looks to be going on for several months into the future. You concoct this plan to have your 5 nations attack Ronin in a few months. The war ends, and those five nations do not attack. Should you be attacked for planning future acts of war while you were at war?

[thespoon]

So you're saying we should call this the Smurf War. Sounds good.

ooh...ya that fits really well!

[Kzoppistan]

What I meant was:

By the logical extension of the arguments "people" have been using against us in Athens we are all ready at war with you.

I am not going to go back through 70 pages of &#33;@#&#036; to see if you personally subscribed to that "theory"

If I must explain further people were trying to say that since we (Athens) declared on NPO then we were at war with TPF (even without a DoW on either side) must equal We DoW'd on TPF so are war with Zenith. So why a vote?

But then Penkala happily explained that it was not a vote about going to war with us yet on your inept war policies.

Ah, I see. Fascinating perspective.

[silentkiller]

I'm sorry if I missed it, but are there logs of mhawk calling off ZH (aka firing them?). If all he did was stop talking to them, its like your boss just avoiding you. Technically, you still work there and he still wants you to work there, he's just not in the mood to talk to you. You're a good enough employee to work on your own from here on out, anyway.

Even after the employee says that he quits? Because you know that's was ZH did.Before TPF even surrenderd no less.

Edited December 28, 2009 by silentkiller