519 Nigras Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Through thick and thin, VA supports our former protectors and great allies in TPF. Ubi Concordia, Ibi Victoria! TPF Thick and thin eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Kilkenny, I think a lot of people try to like you but you make it very very difficult.Athens and RoK have very convincing logs from members of The Phoenix Federation and Zero Hour concocting this plan to cause some problems. Your government's response has been to whine, evade and generally attempt to deflect the issue while asserting that there has been no ongoing contact between TPF and ZH. The problem here is really one of credibility. You guys admit you set this op up, then claim it never came through but you're not backing that claim up. TPF has a long and rather charming history of attempting to sneak people into places (I would know since I was a part of the fun on at least two occasions) so it's pretty damned believable that good ol' TPF is at it again. Do yourself a favor and go find some evidence that TPF disavowed the op. Y'all have big mouths, I'm sure there's something out there. Assuming, of course, that you're telling the truth. We had no planning in the setting up of Zero Hour, Drunkmonkey and Yohan had planned an alliance together far before the war. If there was any talk of some "Athens" conspiracy, it was all hypothetical woodshed talk and/or jokes, and not meant seriously. Below are logs of DrunkMonkey himself stating they had planned Zero Hour since before the war. This was a splinter off alliance, not some evil TPF plot. 00:12:26» {DrunkMonkey|Vodka} DoE will go up July 5th/6th01«00:12:40» {Airikr} Oh nice! Didnt know you were making an alliance. «00:12:50» {DrunkMonkey|Vodka} yeah we are «00:13:01» {DrunkMonkey|Vodka} its been Yohan & my dream for ages 01«00:13:07» {Airikr} Very nice. «00:13:11» {DrunkMonkey|Vodka} we had it planned since before the war 01«00:13:26» {Airikr} Whats the name? «00:13:33» {DrunkMonkey|Vodka} Zero Hour No official communications or information were ever had between TPF and ZH, if some plan was set up beyond just hypothetical ideas, then it was outside of my knowledge, and most if not all of TPF's government. What I am basically saying is, aside from a few "Hey guys", and "Sup dude", on IRC, there was very little communication happening, you could say our relationships as friends slowly began to fade after they had left TPF, much of this was due to OOC drama. Some people were very hurt by some comments said back then, and I believe this entire situation, including the CB involved, was brought about by a series of arguments and hurt feelings by people on both side over the past months. This is essentially, an OOC war, and Athens was dragged into the middle of it. That's the truth as I know it. edit: Spelling Edited December 28, 2009 by Airikr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So, to you, DoWing TPF under the CB "we want war" would have been more legitimate than the CB they went with here? To me its basically the same thing. The CB is based on spying during the Karma war which was awhile ago and the fact that ZH backed out of the plan sorta ruins it for me. If I was Athens I'd be pissed too but to war for this reason and so quickly after getting this piece of intel sorta baffles me. There are alot of other things I would have done before warring them... like u know talking first. Hell to be honest if I was Athens I would even war with ZH just because they agreed to be the spies in the first place but thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike717 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 One "tenant" has been "trespass[ed]" upon. Such a "trespass" is therefore done upon both parties. TPF has not indicated that they wish to "repel" the attacker by themselves, in fact they indicated the opposite. Zenith should be in. If I did not believe my alliance would honor its word and fulfill its obligations, i would not be a member of it any longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Something has been bothering me. People in this thread don't have the ability to tell time. August - December = 4 months. Well about 4 and 1/2 if you want to get technical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If I did not believe my alliance would honor its word and fulfill its obligations, i would not be a member of it any longer. That's cool. I was just pointing out that it is already past go-time and TPF's allies didn't need any more of an invitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scorponok Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Go for it TPF. Enjoy the carnage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's cool. I was just pointing out that it is already past go-time and TPF's allies didn't need any more of an invitation. Oh. That's cuz we're cooking up a mass cancellation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrono Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 So, to you, DoWing TPF under the CB "we want war" would have been more legitimate than the CB they went with here? To me it would be. These same guys set the standard just earlier this year that spying is NOT, in fact, CB. But hey, the double standard is nothing new. MK enforced ZI on another alliance for spying, what, a week before the Karma War? bottom line is that Athens, RoK and their immediate allies believe the CB to be valid and 100% justified. Its okay to be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Oh. That's cuz we're cooking up a mass cancellation. Sounds about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Its okay to be wrong. The CB is weak not unjust and I have seen weaker CBs used by TPF and other alliances in the past so dont be all hurt about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahnite Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm sorry, but there is no defending the CB in this war, period. The closet allegory in RL would be if the US sat on the Zimmerman Telegram, then decided after Germany surrendered to declare war ... in 1923. Both plans were concocted in wartime and neither came to fruition. And the premise that a party that had broken diplomatic relations would go ahead with a plan that the party they had broken diplomatic relations with had proposed, just boggles the mind ("O' by the way, we're not speaking with you, would you mind shelving any of the plans we concocted while we were still on speaking terms?"). There are just too many large holes in this logic. "We don't like you and want to get a first strike because we're afraid of what you could do to us if we didn't." would have garnered more respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike717 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 The CB is weak not unjust and I have seen weaker CBs used by TPF and other alliances in the past so dont be all hurt about this one. Injustices of the past do not make present injustices any more tolerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry, but there is no defending the CB in this war, period. The closet allegory in RL would be if the US sat on the Zimmerman Telegram, then decided after Germany surrendered to declare war ... in 1923. Both plans were concocted in wartime and neither came to fruition. And the premise that a party that had broken diplomatic relations would go ahead with a plan that the party they had broken diplomatic relations with had proposed, just boggles the mind ("O' by the way, we're not speaking with you, would you mind shelving any of the plans we concocted while we were still on speaking terms?"). There are just too many large holes in this logic."We don't like you and want to get a first strike because we're afraid of what you could do to us if we didn't." would have garnered more respect. Heh, it's pretty simple buddy. TPF tries to inflict damage on RoK and Athens through espionage and sabotage, so Athens and RoK beat you senseless. The CB used is entirely justified as RoK and Athens are defending their members from an alliance taking aggressive action to harm them, I don't think any alliance apart from the neutrals are cowardly enough to sit back and do nothing about that. Edited December 28, 2009 by Jack Diorno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Injustices of the past do not make present injustices any more tolerable. I agree with you there but because of all the past injustices you should be use to it by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Srqt Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) It's funny to see the people who used the 'and xyz and in particular' clause of the first term ignore the second term which called TPF to end all ongoing wars against alliances and nations. Except that the logs provided show that the spy OP was called off before the end of the Karma war making whatever point you just tried to make pretty irrelevant. Something has been bothering me. People in this thread don't have the ability to tell time. August - December = 4 months. Well about 4 and 1/2 if you want to get technical. According to the logs in Athens' DoW this all actually happened around June, which would be 6 months ago. But considering some of the other dates thrown around I see what you mean. Edited December 28, 2009 by KingSrqt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike717 Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I agree with you there but because of all the past injustices you should be use to it by now. I thought we learned that getting used to it and allowing things to happen simply makes us no better than those who are doing the hatchet work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Does any of this really matter? Listen kids, I realize some of you are tech-farmers, infra-growers, wanna-be titans of the CN world. And that's cool, because that is exactly the type of sheep-herding, food-raising, stuff-making underclass that feeds the rest of the world. But please realize this: We do not care. We laugh at your pain, and then turn and laugh at ours. It's like that scene from Fight Club; Tyler Durden getting his $@! BEAT by some gangster as he laughs; blood coming from his mouth as he giggles. We really "don't curr". We are ecstatic to be alive; happy as a pig in #%#@ to be fighting, and we will take your infra, your tech, and your money, hand over fist. We don't do this out of a particular hate for you; you're just a nice, juicy target, and we have this thing about being loyal to our friends. I know, it's crazy right? To the real warriors out there in the TPF: Don't complain, man. What, do you want to live forever or something? Give us a fun time, I promise you we'll do the same. Oh, and \m/: Blingin, baby. Stay blingin and fresh foreva, got it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahnite Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Heh, it's pretty simple buddy. TPF tries to inflict damage on RoK and Athens through espionage and sabotage, so Athens and RoK beat you senseless. The CB used is entirely justified as RoK and Athens are defending their members from an alliance taking aggressive action to harm them, I don't think any alliance apart from the neutrals are cowardly enough to sit back and do nothing about that. Are you smoking crack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I thought we learned that getting used to it and allowing things to happen simply makes us no better than those who are doing the hatchet work. We are doomed to repeat ourselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatFALGuy Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Are you smoking crack? That is rhetorical, right? XD Defending from something that never happened, that is the new way of the world. Thought crimes, gotta love it. Wonder if it is too far gone now to go declare war on an alliance that spied on us multiple times over many months.....almost, erm...3 years ago. Can anyone tell me if that would be a legit CB too? Edited December 28, 2009 by Chimay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Are you smoking crack? He might be but we are pretty sure that you and your brethren are as well. And I agree with him. Any other alliance in this situation would be laying the smackdown on the offending alliance. Edited December 28, 2009 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That is rhetorical, right? XDDefending from something that never happened, that is the new way of the world. Thought crimes, gotta love it. Wonder if it is too far gone now to go declare war on an alliance that spied on us multiple times over many months.....almost, erm...3 years ago. Can anyone tell me if that would be a legit CB too? Um you and your allies have rolled for less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejayrazz Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Bottom line is, TPFs' actions occurred during a different environment. I think TPF needs to remember that if you're going to destroy an alliance, make sure it's the one you're actually fighting. I doubt TPF continued its operations past Karma war as I do not trust ZH one bit, but nonetheless, a general consensus is unclear about who TPF actually surrendered to, and if anything, they didn't surrender to Athens because they never 'technically' were in war, especially with no signatures. These alliances, Athens, Sparta, RoK, etc have the right to be upset, but I am hoping it doesn't escalate over something occurring 6 months ago (Or 4, you people are really killing me here). You have the right to be upset. You have the power to be upset. But you also have the power to stop this from going any further, to walk away as the bigger person and understand this is a mess of events rather than black and white. I believe in Karma, not the force, the word itself, and TPF paid for this once before. Technically, they can be given the consequences twice -- you have that power -- but you also have the power to show mercy to an already declining alliance. I am sure some don't feel this sympathy, which I understand, I am just a nobody talking, but everyone knows this will potentially blow up over an alliance blown from the inside. Edited December 28, 2009 by Ejayrazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatFALGuy Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Um you and your allies have rolled for less. Have I? Guess I missed that memo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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