The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[potato]

Most reasonable folks would think what went down during war ends when.............. that war ends.

If you had tried that with MK, I believe I'd be agreeing with you. Although I wouldn't be pleased about it. But TPF was fighting MK directly so it's fair game, I guess.

[Bob]

Lets be honest here, its not the CBs that matter, its who is backing you. Whether this CB is valid or not, thats always been the case.

The CB is just a reason, but this one is better then most.

And by that I mean I agree with you bigwoody, war will come regardless its just a matter of who is backing who and for what reason. People are more willing to declare a war they will win, its just common sense.

[Augusta Antonia]

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have them.

Best post of this thread so far, IMO

[Alterego]

Opinions are like buttholes, we all have them.

True but some opinions need better Preparation H and some look good on a poster. My opinion is firm, tight and like a 10 year old opinion where as your opinion appears saggy and has opinion fluff on it

[2burnt2eat]

Again, Athens only heard about 3 days ago.

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

Do we really have to go in circles? I mean, you quoted it in your first response

[Dochartaigh]

Friends come first with me. That doesn't make my code of conduct less reliable than yours. Nice try at a personal attack though. Great job!

yes, that was a personal attack instead of an observation made off of your own words... fact is, you stated that your friends come first despite if they spied, or does who knows what else. thus you put aside your own personal code of conduct instead of living up to it. that makes it less reliable than mine, as i will live up to my personal code of conduct regardless of friendship or not.

Athens was at war when it was "spied" upon. Its not rocket science.

still not sure why it is valid? you have yet to answer that other than saying that TPF put themselves in a bad position and used spying to try and weaken an opponent. i could have sworn that TPF did not condone or support FAN when they did this or Vox when they did this, so why is it okay for TPF to do this?

and ya'll keep saying we are inconsistent....

Why didn't TPF come forward about this when the war was over? If you really need to ask this question, I guess the several DoWs don't provide a good enough answer.

you do notice how ZH is not at war? so possibly if TPF came forward, ZH would be the one involved in the war and not TPF? hmm......

but that is right, only Athens has to use diplomacy. TPF can do whatever it wants since ya know, TPF put itself in a state of eternal war and all that jazz.....

[junkahoolik]

actually that dude in Blackstone was the spy not OV. OV accepted info from Blackstone. something that NPO and others have done since CN began essentially.

so, OV never spied, nor did they actively send out spies into NPO and thus, your argument fails.

i'm pretty sure no alliance accepts information from a spy unless they want to put it to some use. and if they do, they are promoting spying regardless since that spy is from then on their spy. either way, the cb for npo's declaration was related to being spied upon. or are you saying that being spied upon is irrelevant since the spy has no fixed aa for who he is spying??

edit: fixed typos

Edited December 27, 2009 by junkahoolik

[Bob]

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

Do we really have to go in circles? I mean, you quoted it in your first response

You seem to enjoy arguing circuitous logic.

[Archon]

MM....if we had to have a come to Jesus thread about all the things we plotted/planned/talked about during that war we would put Londos little I'm Sorry fest to shame.

Most reasonable folks would think what went down during war ends when.............. that war ends.

Your association with ZH ended apparently because of ZH, not because of TPF. You also engineered this in the middle of peace term negotiations. It's not much of a stretch to believe that this would not have ended when the war did.

[D34th]

What should have been discussed in diplomacy?

This is now the second time I am doing this, so please don't make me do it a third.

Athens: We want the heads of everyone in TPF responsible for this.

TPF: So you want our govt.

Athens: Basically.

TPF: *peacemode*

Athens: %&*#@

What would hurt TPF more, this war or eternal peace mode?

I keep seeing the whole diplomacy argument being thrown about.

What exactly could you talk about to TPF after this?

"Hey, we know you tried to spy on people, and then after months of not getting intel, you continued to keep it a secret from everyone. Now obviously this is going to hurt our trust in you.. but don't do it again."

"Congrats. Peace in our time o/"

"Hey, we know you tried to spy on people, and then after months of not getting intel, you continued to keep it a secret from everyone, now we request you to do a public apology in OWF and pay us some reps or we would declare war.

"Congrats. You solved it diplomatically o/"

TPF chose to commit an act of war, why do things have to be resolved diplomatically?

Just because acted as idiots do not mean that you need act in the same way.

"An eye for an eye and soon the world will be blind." (Gandhi)

Edited December 27, 2009 by D34th

[Dochartaigh]

MM....if we had to have a come to Jesus thread about all the things we plotted/planned/talked about during that war we would put Londos little I'm Sorry fest to shame.

Most reasonable folks would think what went down during war ends when.............. that war ends.

if that were true, why didn't TPF come clean? why did it hide their actions? if they were as justified as ya'll keep saying that is....

this is another inconsistency. ya'll keep saying it was justifiable and yet also state that TPF could not have come forward cuz.... well ya'll don't really list any reasons other than war, which means that the actions are not as justifiable as you guys keep making them out to be.

[Proko]

in all honesty, it is not that clear to me either. but what is clear is that TPF knew of the intentions of ZH and did nothing to forewarn Athens.

either way, they actively (yes actively) allowed for the actions of ZH to take place. if it was just to save face, i would say they would have saved more face coming forward and having ZH take the lumps than by hiding it and allowing ZH to continue (regardless of whether they did or did not continue does not matter as according to mhawk's story, contact stopped in July, thus TPF could only have assumed that the plan was still on).

didn't Polaris attack GATO for a CB that was over 6 months old?

i would say that the urgency is ensuring that a precedent is not set about spying during war-time. as it stands if TPF and friends get their way, spying will become normal during war-time and acceptable. i would say this war is partly to ensure that that precedent is not set but mostly about TPF's actions and their lack of actions.

i am unclear why an arbitrary length of time honestly matters? 5 months (july-Dec= 5 months) is not that long of a time.

I think they may have been better off in the long run if they had confessed to this immediately, but I don't think anyone here is going to praise mhawk for clear thinking. I do not see why TPF would have assumed ZH was still fulfilling their mandate after contact stopped. ZH was working on behalf of TPF, and if they stopped talking to TPF, I am unsure how that proves they continued their mission.

We have never declared war on GATO for any other reason than treaty obligations in all four occasions that we have been at war with GATO. GATO entered in defense of LUE in GPW and GWII, and we entered on behalf of Pacifica in GWIII and the 1V-GATO war.

Frankly, I agree with AirMe and I do not think the arguments put forth by mhawk are especially good, so my disagreement with the CB is concurrent rather than in accord. I think spying is generally wrong and I wished we could have done more when the Continuum was spying on us. I do not think what TPF did was right or defensible in any way, so much as I think an immediate declaration of war was sort of rash.

I think we can agree that there is no evidence to support TPF currently spying on Athens.

We can also agree that there is no evidence to support ZH or TPF actually did any harm to Athens.

I think we can therefore decide that there was no urgency in this situation: TPF would remain an alliance and RoK or Athens would retain the ability to attack them if negotiations were unfruitful.

[Moridin]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=30981

I believe we qualified as "others" and even if we didn't you declared war on Valhalla which under the Collective Defense Clause of the Mobius Accords was taken as a declaration of war on all signatories, therefore counter as an attack on Pacifica itself. And even if that didn't qualify as a declaration of war on the New Pacific Order, your attack on GGA was considered a declaration of war based on the One Vision Accords.... so yeah, you declared war the day you did your DoE.

While it is heartening to see you consider your alliance as, at the time, "seek[ing] to crush freedom", our DoW was specifically on Valhalla and GGA. No other alliance was mentioned by name and your assumptions are made from the perspective of an outsider and are thus woefully misinformed. The treaty argument is silly; whatever the wording might say, a declaration of war on alliance x and a declaration of war on x's ally y are two different things. The former allows for the activation of y's defensive treaties and the latter requires y to fight back aggressively and thus does not allow the activation of defensive treaties. I won't pretend we didn't expect NPO to fight us, but we never declared war on the NPO.

As I have no opinion at the moment on the actual subject at hand I will withdraw from this thread.

[Bob]

What would hurt TPF more, this war or eternal peace mode?

Actually I'm not sure. This would require more calculations then I have the ability to do without intimate knowledge of the collection amounts of each TPF member, their happiness, how much they will lose, the net losses because of those losses, the money spent rebuilding it.

Regardless, war is a part of the Cyberverse. Athens chose to use it instead of having to wait eternally to destroy those who spied on them.

[bigwoody]

if that were true, why didn't TPF come clean? why did it hide their actions? if they were as justified as ya'll keep saying that is....

this is another inconsistency. ya'll keep saying it was justifiable and yet also state that TPF could not have come forward cuz.... well ya'll don't really list any reasons other than war, which means that the actions are not as justifiable as you guys keep making them out to be.

I'm pretty sure if they had come forward they would have been stomped then, too.

Not sure if they're BSing or not, but their defense is that their fallout with ZH members happened before the war ended, and thus there was nothing to come clean for, as war-like operations all ended by the time the war ended.

[AirMe]

Um...technical difficulties.

[junkahoolik]

I don't know what you just said so here is a picture of a bunny with a pancake on its head.

ooh man... that was just sick... you ruined my appetite for 5 minutes... grats!!

[potato]

I couldn't care less when you found it out. I'm sure you'd support spying allegations from '07, or even '06 as war reasons now. It'd be silly, but hey, at least you'd be consistent.

I hope.

Do we really have to go in circles? I mean, you quoted it in your first response

What point are you trying to make? That I would roll anyone if the CB was old? Yeah, I probably would. So? I like to destroy things.

[AirMe]

ooh man... that was just sick... you ruined my appetite for 5 minutes... grats!!

[ooc]That is what I get for IMG tagging an image from Google Images without uploading it to my own image account.[/ooc] Sorry.

[bigwoody]

Your association with ZH ended apparently because of ZH, not because of TPF. You also engineered this in the middle of peace term negotiations. It's not much of a stretch to believe that this would not have ended when the war did.

While I agree with your last sentence there, is "would have done" an acceptable CB now?

Genuinely curious.

[junkahoolik]

Um...technical difficulties.

as in... lack of maturity??

[Alterego]

[ooc]That is what I get for IMG tagging an image from Google Images without uploading it to my own image account.[/ooc] Sorry.

I liked it

[junkahoolik]

[ooc]That is what I get for IMG tagging an image from Google Images without uploading it to my own image account.[/ooc] Sorry.

oooh... nvm then

[JBone]

Its unfortunate that you were not at war with Athens or RoK, or this argument would stick.

Please keep it up

Hey there Penguin Solaris.....we were at war with 17 different alliances and our MADP partners were at war with the ones not directly on our front.

So yea, it was all of us against all of you.

I was told many times that we were the Heg and Karma was putting us down....no doubt Athens and Rok were part of that Karma.

I have no issues keeping it up, thank you.

[junkahoolik]

I liked it

you're a sick !@#$%^& then