ddog241 Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 You said that earlier. Why are Athens letting ZH away with spying on them? maybe you should read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Savage Man Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Hello Pacifica, I see you got a new name. I'm sure you thought that was extremely clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I'd agree with you if those negotiating peace knew about this at the time. This is hardly the run of the mill war time strategy. Something like this isn't like nukes, in-game spying, or even sanctioning. There was no way for those negotiating peace to know about this and probably more importantly, Athens wasn't even in the room. It be more like NPO coming back to power and finding out that you had tried to infiltrate their alliance during the karma war in order to destroy them from the inside. TPF had a lot of people going to bat for them to get them terms that they wouldn't have had if this had been known. They don't get away with it just because nobody knew about it until now or because it failed. This wasn't what they got peace for. Though I agree with you that this is not run of the mill war time strategy, and I do not in any circumstances condone this, I'd say the slate was still wiped clean. I know if I had a coalition against me and my allies I'd just say everyone on the other side (except those that may have treaty conflicts and thus could be considered both sides) would be fair game. Would I have taken it that far? No of course not. I was presented the opportunity to do tons of damage to NPO from the inside out and chose to forgo it (as did Archon) because we simply did not agree with it, though it would of made things much easier. I simply must reiterate that I believe you and all parties involved to be better then this. Turn the shoulder, and just put them on the list of "well they screw up in any way what so ever again then we just go kaboom boom." This is what I hope for, be the bigger man/alliance and walk away, heads held high, honor in tact, and with the knowledge that mercy can be a powerful tool indeed while vindication though, enjoyable at times, is not the best solution. (Yes I realize like I'm preaching here, but hey I'm Karmaesque, I truly did do it for the moral reasons ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I know if I had a coalition against me and my allies I'd just say everyone on the other side (except those that may have treaty conflicts and thus could be considered both sides) would be fair game. I simply must reiterate that I believe you and all parties involved to be better then this. Turn the shoulder, and just put them on the list of "well they screw up in any way what so ever again then we just go kaboom boom." Hello double standards man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I wasn't aware that Archon had authority to negotiate surrender on behalf of uninvolved parties. Tell me, if it turned out TPF had been spying on, say, Valhalla, you'd accept TPF's blanket cessation of hostilities -- white peace -- as sufficient restitution for those actions? To be fair, I know I negotiated peace for quite a few alliances though not having any affiliation with said alliances what so ever. NATO comes to mind at the top of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 to my knowledge, in order to get peace you need an agreement that peace has been reached. it seems that if TPF was at war with all those other alliances, then they never received peace with those other alliances as there is no addendum like CCC gets due to giving white peace, nor are their signature on this peace treaty. so your argument actually allows for many alliances to have CBs against TPF as there never was peace signed between TPF and every other alliance involved in Karma. so are you sure you actually want to go with this argument? To be fair Doch, Archon and I requested that we be in every peace talk negotiations so as to prevent future things like this from happening. That us there as representatives were declaring peace for ALL those that fought under the Karma banner, for better or worse. Were we always there? No. Do I believe the spirit of that should be followed? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 To be fair, I know I negotiated peace for quite a few alliances though not having any affiliation with said alliances what so ever. NATO comes to mind at the top of my list. That's not cool to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's not cool to do. Congrats on denouncing it 6 months later when it now suits your argument not to have it this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Hello double standards man. Fair game in regards to blowing people up. I do not condone spying or what TPF has at all. I'm saying if I somehow had a coalition against me, and my allies and lets say I get peace from 5 alliances against me, thus clearing up a significant amount of NS to go against other parties in the coalition, I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Congrats on denouncing it 6 months later when it now suits your argument not to have it this way. Actually I denounced it back then too on the karma forums. Have another reach: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's not cool to do. This was done to prevent extortion of massive amount of reps. I won't name names, but some people were asking for 1.2B or some other ridiculous number for something like 2 days of war. It was done in an attempt to prevent god-awful reps. It probably only succeeded in part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Actually I denounced it back then too on the karma forums. Of course you did and without any proof I will totally believe you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Fair game in regards to blowing people up. I do not condone spying or what TPF has at all. Glad you agree. I'm saying if I somehow had a coalition against me, and my allies and lets say I get peace from 5 alliances against me, thus clearing up a significant amount of NS to go against other parties in the coalition, I would. Okay except Athens and TPF weren't fighting at all in-game so that's pretty moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulomascovia Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I still don't understand why a DoW was necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 This was done to prevent extortion of massive amount of reps. I won't name names, but some people were asking for 1.2B or some other ridiculous number for something like 2 days of war. It was done in an attempt to prevent god-awful reps. It probably only succeeded in part. Okay Mr "takes away sovereignty" Of course you did and without any proof I will totally believe you. I don't care if you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I still don't understand why a DoW was necessary. That's nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citizenkane Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 o/ Athens Go get them boys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidMercury Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 (edited) Okay except Athens and TPF weren't fighting at all in-game so that's pretty moot. Athens and TPF were fighting in spirit in my mind. As a member of Gremlins I always considered myself at war with anyone Karma declared upon. That's why we had Karma banking that alliances were giving aid to any who needed it on any front. Okay Mr "takes away sovereignty" And yes I was often told that I was the viceroy of 92 odd alliances or so. And believe me, had I had my way I would of been sovereign of the world it would have made my life so so so so much easier but alas I decided to not impose my dictatorship rule. Alliances were kind enough to allow me to oversee some of the peace talks and my advice and encouragement to drop terrible terms was for the most adhered to. I of course could not demand anything legally or impose anything. Edited December 28, 2009 by LiquidMercury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You're missing the point. My assertion is that the document as worded grants TPF peace with all the alliances that were a member of the Karma coalition. Those that signed the document had formal DoWs (minus CCC but that is noted), but the lack of other signatures is irreverent."And so, without further ado, as the Voice of Karma, I hereby declare an End of Hostilities in the Karma War, and present to Planet Bob the Instrument of Surrender for The Phoenix Federation" That is definitive, accepted by all concerned parties on Planet Bob, and irrevocable unless proof can be shown of treaty violations. There is no claim of treaty violation in this case. it has always been the practice that those who sign the peace terms are the ones who were at war with one another. the lack of other signatures is not irreverent since it means that they either did not sign terms (gee, wonder why CCC had an addendum to make sure that white peace existed between CCC and TPF) or they did not sign it because the surrender had nothing to do with them as they did not fight TPF. either way, it destroys your argument as the first way, means that Athens is still at war with TPF or the second way, means that TPF was never at war with Athens and thus, using that whole war-time argument flies right out the window. To be fair Doch, Archon and I requested that we be in every peace talk negotiations so as to prevent future things like this from happening. That us there as representatives were declaring peace for ALL those that fought under the Karma banner, for better or worse. Were we always there? No. Do I believe the spirit of that should be followed? Yes. and? negotiating peace is not the same as declaring peace between Athens and TPF when there was never a war between the two. TOP negotiated peace between ZDP and NEW does that mean that TOP was ever at war with NEW? no. thus, that argument does not hold much water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Athens and TPF were fighting in spirit in my mind. That's cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Athens and TPF were fighting in spirit in my mind. As a member of Gremlins I always considered myself at war with anyone Karma declared upon. That's why we had Karma banking that alliances were giving aid to any who needed it on any front. i was a member of Gremlins and only considered myself at war with IRON as if i declared a war against say NPO or Echelon or Valhalla, i would not have received a kind word from the Gre leadership and that war would have been seen as a rogue war with a declaration from Gre stating that they did not condone the war against anyone outside of IRON. do not even attempt to state this is not true. if i could not have declared war on any alliance other than IRON, how does that mean we are at war with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulomascovia Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's nice. Really, was conflict necessary? TPF already had a fallout with ZH so they probably didn't think of dismantling the plan afterward. TPF may have had some regrets about implementing the plan by now anyway. Athens and RoK were in no immediate danger. All they had were allegations from ZH (the party that partially carried out the operation because of a fall out with mhawk and not from any moral reservations) and no diplomatic contact with TPF. That seems rather hasty to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Really, was conflict necessary? Yes, it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 That's cute. You're cute. Coffee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 You're cute. Coffee? Anytime dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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