Announcement from Dark Fist

[Starcraftmazter]

I've been in worse. I have been in negotiations where I have been berated, degraded, insulted and other wise disrespect and I still went through and generated outcomes that were favorable to my alliance.

If you think Tyga is bad, try negotiating with 404 Error from GOONs or noWedge. Then you can tell me what hostile is. Honestly, you could end this by manning up and giving an apology but you aren't.

And your previous experiences, and those of others make this okey?

I for one believe we live in a world different to the past, and I do not think it is at all acceptable to treat people like that. We dislike the NSO, however in all our private discussions with them, even after being threatened with an ultimatum, I was very police - which is more than I can say for certain other people. We have never insulted them or talked down on them, and thus when it comes to serious government discussions, I believe this kind of behavior is not only inappropriate, but damaging to the diplomatic efforts.

Because DF can't handle it's own and are now hiding behind SF and Company. As I have previously stated, the only reason this is STILL going on is because DF is using the support of SF to blur the fact that they have nothing but lies and allegations to base their outrage on.

AirMe, this is quite disrespectful

Of course we have collaborated with our allies and have obtained their opinion on the matter. We are however not hiding behind anyone, and in fact I would vouch to say that if NSO declares war on us, we will not ask for anyone's assistance, but simply let them assist us if they consider it appropriate.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Starcraftmazter

[AirMe]

Allegations yes, but lies? DF felt the need to address the behaviour of NSO, and they did that. Not in the most diplomatic of ways, but without making threats. This escalating to the point of war is because the NSO, NOT DF threatened war.

You can argue "but for" over each and every part of this situation. "But for" NSO's undiplomatic approach to the DF, this wouldn't have happened. "But For" DF's aggresive and undiplomatic response, this wouldn't have happened. "But for" NSO's threat of military action in response this wouldn't have happend. If DF offered an apology, this wouldn't have happened.

Which "but for" you choose to examine most closely will dictate who's point of view you agree with.

If you want to nit pick, we can connect this all the way back to the creation of the planet and how this is really Admins fault and no one elses.

[Dochartaigh]

Yes. We get it. You don't like us.

actually up until this thread, i had no issue with DF and had generally left SCM alone since that time. but this thread is just plain ridiculous and the crap spewing from SCM's mouth is laughable.

i also don't have much like for NSO but this thread is just so horrible, it makes me like them.

[Amossio]

Because DF can't handle it's own and are now hiding behind SF and Company. As I have previously stated, the only reason this is STILL going on is because DF is using the support of SF to blur the fact that they have nothing but lies and allegations to base their outrage on.

lulz and nso never hides behind anyone now do they?

[Durabo]

If you want to nit pick, we can connect this all the way back to the creation of the planet and how this is really Admins fault and no one elses.

Its my legal background - words are my stock in trade, I'm GOOD at nitpicking, I can't help it! Also, the chain of causation and the "but for" test are things I've spent a long time learning about.. to be able to use them outside of a boring legal essay no one in their right mind would ever want to read gives me a strange tingle!

Edited December 24, 2009 by Durabo

[AirMe]

And your previous experiences, and those of others make this okey?

I for one believe we live in a world different to the past, and I do not think it is at all acceptable to treat people like that. We dislike the NSO, however in all our private discussions with them, even after being threatened with an ultimatum, I was very police - which is more than I can say for certain other people. We have never insulted them or talked down on them, and thus when it comes to serious government discussions, I believe this kind of behavior is not only inappropriate, but damaging to the diplomatic efforts.

I can respect this view point. However this is not worth a war.

AirMe, this is quite disrespectful

Of course we have collaborated with our allies and have obtained their opinion on the matter. We are however not hiding behind anyone, and in fact I would vouch to say that if NSO declares war on us, we will not ask for anyone's assistance, but simply let them assist us if they consider it appropriate.

If that was TRULY true, as stated earlier you wouldn't be going to uninvolved parties asking for support. Plus given the disrespect of your original announcement it is ironic that the process is now being held up by another perceived lack of respect. Perhaps if you had been more respectful in the OP you wouldn't have been disrespected in the negotiations.

[Starcraftmazter]

I can respect this view point. However this is not worth a war.

Agreed.

If that was TRULY true, as stated earlier you wouldn't be going to uninvolved parties asking for support.

I don't believe I have asked any uninvolved parties for support, I and Daikos have only contacted alliances with which we hold a treaty, to see where they stand and what their opinion is of this incident. Those alliances probably contacted alliances which we have no formal relations with - but this is hardly my fault.

I think I have the right to discuss an issue of this magnitude with my allies, do you not?

Plus given the disrespect of your original announcement it is ironic that the process is now being held up by another perceived lack of respect. Perhaps if you had been more respectful in the OP you wouldn't have been disrespected in the negotiations.

Quite possible, but if you want to look at it like that, then two wrongs don't make a right.

[Tygaland]

Ah yes, the negotiations. The same ones where Tygaland felt it necessary to call our members idiotic, stupid and moronic. What a great way to come to a compromise.

Yes, big, bad, horrible Tyga. The only time I alluded to acts of stupidity was when SCM mentioned his members wanted reps to cover the cost of their militarisation. I think any sane person would have drawn the same conclusion.

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> my member would want reparations as they are gearing up for war, which is costly, etc

[12:56] <Tygaland> you are !@#$@#$ kidding me

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> tl;dr I believe NSO went very badly about handling this

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> no i am not

[12:56] <Tygaland> you want reps?

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> i dont want reps

[12:56] <Tygaland> I'm doen with you and your rank stupidity

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> people in my alliance want reps

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> makes sense to me

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> you are not being very nice Tyga

This was after the NSO had asked only for a personal apology from SCM for the unsubstantiated OOC accusations he made against the members of the NSO and he used your members not wanting him to apologise as an excuse not to. Not only was he unwilling to do anything to facilitate a resolution but he went further and started throwing clearly stupid notions like reps for militarisation costs into the discussion.

There is only so much evasive stupidity one can endure before they have call it is such.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Tygaland

[Derwood1]

DF obviously does not feel they did anything wrong so why would they apologize? NSO made a reckless ultimatum they obviously can't back up....so here we are. Either NSO "man's up" or we all move on to the next minor Bob drama B)

edit: Typo

Edited December 24, 2009 by Derwood1

[Tygaland]

DF obviously does not feel they did anything wrong so why would they apologize? TSO made a reckless ultimatum they obviously can't back up....so here we are. Either TSO "man's up" or we all move on to the next minor Bob drama B)

Down with TSO!

[Amossio]

DF obviously does not feel they did anything wrong so why would they apologize? TSO made a reckless ultimatum they obviously can't back up....so here we are. Either TSO "man's up" or we all move on to the next minor Bob drama B)

when did TSO come into this, I'm confused

[Starcraftmazter]

This was after the NSO had asked only for a personal apology from SCM for the unsubstantiated OOC accusations he made against the members of the NSO and he used your members not wanting him to apologise as an excuse not to. Not only was he unwilling to do anything to facilitate a resolution but he went further and started throwing clearly stupid notions like reps for militarisation costs into the discussion.

May I ask as to why you continue to bring this up, again and again, as though we haven't already been over this?

I like how you left out this from the logs;

[12:59:32] <Starcraftmazter> note that i am not requesting anything, i am simply conveying what my members are saying

[Derwood1]

My apologies to TSO....typo fixed

[mythicknight]

TSO must burn for this.

[ddog241]

Yes, big, bad, horrible Tyga. The only time I alluded to acts of stupidity was when SCM mentioned his members wanted reps to cover the cost of their militarisation. I think any sane person would have drawn the same conclusion.

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> my member would want reparations as they are gearing up for war, which is costly, etc

[12:56] <Tygaland> you are !@#$@#$ kidding me

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> tl;dr I believe NSO went very badly about handling this

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> no i am not

[12:56] <Tygaland> you want reps?

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> i dont want reps

[12:56] <Tygaland> I'm doen with you and your rank stupidity

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> people in my alliance want reps

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> makes sense to me

[12:56] <Starcraftmazter> you are not being very nice Tyga

This was after the NSO had asked only for a personal apology from SCM for the unsubstantiated OOC accusations he made against the members of the NSO and he used your members not wanting him to apologise as an excuse not to. Not only was he unwilling to do anything to facilitate a resolution but he went further and started throwing clearly stupid notions like reps for militarisation costs into the discussion.

There is only so much evasive stupidity one can endure before they have call it is such.

omg asking for reps for building military, i think i heard it all now

[Rebel Virginia]

Just earlier that day, youwish was bragging to me how he cheated our alliance of 180mill when he pulled Soldier towards TPF for the lulz.

So I have, and thus, I stand by the accusation.

OOC: Are you really arguing that because youwish did something you consider to be "immoral" IC that means he is obviously guilty of propositioning /b/ to do an OOC spam attack on your forum? Listen sweetheart, some people play bad guys IC, but that doesn't mean they are bad guys OOC. Most people are capable of recognizing that line. Are you?

Also, just so you know, there is really no comparison between pulling alliance towards your direction and gore spamming a board. To even think of comparing the two is just.....Jesus Christ.

[Starcraftmazter]

OOC: Are you really arguing that because youwish did something you consider to be "immoral" IC that means he is obviously guilty of propositioning /b/ to do an OOC spam attack on your forum? Listen sweetheart, some people play bad guys IC, but that doesn't mean they are bad guys OOC. Most people are capable of recognizing that line. Are you?

No, I was simply providing one instance where he has done something insulting with the intent to cause OOC harm. Bringing that up had no IC meaning, he was simply trying to upset us.

Also, just so you know, there is really no comparison between pulling alliance towards your direction and gore spamming a board. To even think of comparing the two is just.....Jesus Christ.

I'm not entirely sure to what you are referring to here.

[Tygaland]

May I ask as to why you continue to bring this up, again and again, as though we haven't already been over this?

I like how you left out this from the logs;

You'll see that line you quoted was some time after the exchange I highlighted which was the one where I alluded to stupidity. Seeing as I was being accused of calling you stupid I believed the context was necessary to show I was hardly being abusive but reacting quite appropriately to something that was indeed stupid.

You'll also notice it was Daikos who raised the issue again, not me. I merely replied to counter the misinformation he was posting. If you wish for me not to post then making allegations about me is probably not an ideal way to make that happen.

[Tromp]

omg asking for reps for building military, i think i heard it all now

Learn to read, a few posts above yours:

[12:59:32] <Starcraftmazter> note that i am not requesting anything, i am simply conveying what my members are saying

[mhawk]

Ah yes, the negotiations. The same ones where Tygaland felt it necessary to call our members idiotic, stupid and moronic. What a great way to come to a compromise.

I just can't believe Tyga and I are finally on the same page.... it's gonna be a very white Christmas

[Rebel Virginia]

May I ask as to why you continue to bring this up, again and again, as though we haven't already been over this?

I like how you left out this from the logs;

What does it matter what your members are saying? Tyga was not negotiating with your members. He was talking to you. If you wanted your members' opinions, that's fine, but when you lay the demand on Tyga, that's you talking. I don't think it is that difficult to comprehend.

No, I was simply providing one instance where he has done something insulting with the intent to cause OOC harm. Bringing that up had no IC meaning, he was simply trying to upset us.

I'm not entirely sure to what you are referring to here.

OOC: How does youwish seeing that Soldier allied with TPF do anyone OOC harm? And so what if he found it funny that an IC enemy lost money by stealing that ally away, or something. Whatever happened. Point is it was an IC action. Not in anyway comparable or even proof that he had your board spammed. If you're going by that logic you might as well say that we're all suspects because we have played the game. Therefore we must have had some motive to spam your board.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[TehChron]

We're not in a court of law. No-one is going to convict NSO of harbouring the person who did it. However, in the complete lack of evidence (which is a feature of /b/ invasions), to find the most likely culprit, you look at who would be most likely to do it – i.e. who had a motivation to do it. There isn't really a motivation for DF, CSN or anyone else who wanted to make NSO look bad, because their issuing threats to CSN and then failing to follow through was already quite sufficient to do that. Obviously most third parties who don't really care about either side don't have a motivation. NSO (or at least petty members of NSO) do have one, particularly in the spur of the moment when they were looking rather silly, so unless you can show evidence that points at someone else, that's the most likely.

You are completely avoiding the context of the players involved, Janova. And you know it.

[Viluin]

omg asking for reps for building military, i think i heard it all now

The NSO made a serious threat that directly resulted in the loss of a lot of money. I'd say it's a more appropriate case for reparations than the NSO's initial demand of reparations for the creation of this thread. After all, real monetary losses were suffered in this case, a value could easily be determined. It has been made clear that DF will not demand reparations, but I disagree with the sentiment that it would be completely ridiculous.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Viluin

[Durabo]

The NSO made a serious threat that directly resulted in the loss of a lot of money. I'd say it's a more appropriate case for reparations than the NSO's initial demand of reparations for the creation of this thread. After all, real monetary losses were suffered in this case, a value could easily be determined. It has been made clear that DF will not demand reparations, but I disagree with the sentiment that it would be completely ridiculous.

Have DF made any demands what so ever? Or any threats?

[Daikos]

Have DF made any demands what so ever? Or any threats?

I haven't

SCM hasn't

So imma go with no.

OH WAIT I LIED!!! We asked that reps be paid if the rogue who wasn't a rogue attacked our member.

I think that's reasonable though.