Pacifica: the reformed alliance?

[The AUT]

They're never going to promote you, you're not their type, you've got too many morals.

What?

I don't understand this.

[TehChron]

The problem with the NPO is they treated people who were worth a damn the same way they treated you.

I you, Musso.

[Colonel Radec]

Actually being in social channels is ok, if other Pacificans are able to access them.

If its social, why the need for exclusion of all your alliance mates?

That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. If I've got a group of friends I like to talk to from other alliances and I'm in the NPO. I'm not going to give Johnny Pacifican access to it just because he or she is in my alliance. Just because you're in the same alliance as me doesn't give you the immediate right to join the channel.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Colonel Radec

[muffasamini]

Sarai, I've always liked you but you have to understand that noone has any rights in NPO, what happened with Francesca is largely her own fault, yes, but the same thing could just as easily happen to you one day, or anyone in NPO.

Also, you are an excellent mentor and a very contributing and active member of the alliance, your loyalty and dedication has always been unquestioned, and to be honest your talents are wasted in NPO. They're never going to promote you, you're not their type, you've got too many morals.

And there are so many like you in NPO, if people like you were in charge things could have been different...

Of course it could easily happen to me or anyone in the NPO one day. If I decide to DOS the NPO forums, have mysterious chats with past enemies because 'were freinds', break all sorts of rules, and disregard the emperor, HELL YES THEY'D KICK ME OUT. And they'd be damn straight for doing it.

Also, sarai's up for election to council btw.

Edited October 29, 2009 by muffasamini

[Litha Riddle]

That is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. If I've got a group of friends I like to talk to from other alliances and I'm in the NPO. I'm not going to give Johnny Pacifican access to it just because he or she is in my alliance. Just because you're in the same alliance as me doesn't give you the immediate right to join the channel.

Well no, but if you have a history of opposing an alliance, and a history of spying and such, then you have to expect people to be a little suspicious when you start going in private channels with those that hate your alliance still.

[Ogaden]

Of course it could easily happen to me or anyone in the NPO one day. If I decide to DOS the NPO forums, have mysterious chats with past enemies because 'were freinds', break all sorts of rules, and disregard the emperor, HELL YES THEY'D KICK ME OUT. And they'd be damn straight for doing it.

Also, sarai's up for election to council btw.

muff, let me put it to you this way, during the Moldavi affair, how many of the people purged from the alliance did anything wrong?

[Kewlleo]

*Kewlleo shakes his head

What has CN come to that the membership has nothing better to do that this. I long for the days in which these things really meant something.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Kewlleo

[ShinRa]

Well no, but if you have a history of opposing an alliance, and a history of spying and such, then you have to expect people to be a little suspicious when you start going in private channels with those that hate your alliance still.

Suspicious I could understand, but Cortath's responce was overkill and his demands were... well they were almost comical:

[17:23] <Cortath> You must be the most perfect Pacifican that there ever was. You shall follow every order to the letter. You shall not question any statement or orders of any superior for any reason. You shall post and act in IRC calmly, respectfully and without spam only in those forums that you have access to. You shall only be in channels accessible to the Pacifican public and those channels of Pacifica that you are permitted to be in to perf

[17:23] <Cortath> your duties.

01[17:23] <Francesca[NPO]> You shall only be in channels accessible to the Pacifican public and those channels of Pacifica that you are permitted to be in to perf <--- It cuts off here.

[17:24] <Cortath> You shall only be in channels accessible to the Pacifican public and those channels of Pacifica that you are permitted to be in to perform your duties.

[17:24] <Cortath> If you deviate in the slightest, and I, as Emperor will brook no argument, no semantics, you will be given a simple choice: to quietly resign, or to be expelled with the utmost prejudice.

01[17:24] <Francesca[NPO]> What of my own social channel?

[17:25] <Cortath> From this point on, you will not be judged by your words that you say to me after some wrong is committed in mine eyes, but rather, you will be judged by your actions and your ability to maintain the punishment I have set forth.

[17:26] <Cortath> If I believe you have violated this, I will come to you and give you this choice to resign quietly or be expelled with the utmost prejudice. If you argue, if you attempt to explain your actions such as how I have permitted you to today, I shall assume you have chosen the latter course.

Edited October 29, 2009 by ShinRa

[Colonel Radec]

Well no, but if you have a history of opposing an alliance, and a history of spying and such, then you have to expect people to be a little suspicious when you start going in private channels with those that hate your alliance still.

My response to that is if you're going to restrict what a person does you may as well just purchase them a new computer so you can have complete control over what they do on it. Nobody here has any right to dictate how somebody uses their own computer and the programs on it. That goes for IRC or anything really.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Colonel Radec

[Sal Paradise]

I'm pretty sure he's not asking for a game full of cowards...?

I never said he was.

[willirica]

My response to that is if you're going to restrict what a person does you may as well just purchase them a new computer so you can have complete control over what they do on it. Nobody here has any right to dictate how somebody uses their own computer and the programs on it. That goes for IRC or anything really.

Please; as if they can actually 'force' anyone to do anything, this is a browser based game ffs. If they don't like it then they can leave, or better yet (in francesca's case) quit. Cortath is being overly nice in this situation, do you think someone like baseballer790 would be afforded as many chances as francesca has? Lets get real.

[TehChron]

muff, let me put it to you this way, during the Moldavi affair, how many of the people purged from the alliance did anything wrong?

No.

No.

You did not just go there.

[RandomInterrupt]

I didn't expect rise quickly in NPO. I hoped for a home. Something I haven't found yet in this game.

You haven't found a home because you haven't managed to join an alliance that doesn't suck yet. So here's what I would do in your situation (not that I would ever be in that situation...)

1. Join an alliance that isn't crappy. So that means don't make your own, don't join alliances like the NPO or MCXA or VE where members are treated like dirt. My alliance rocks but don't join that one either.

2. Now that you are in an alliance that treats you like an actual person then comes the hard part. Stop making stupid mistakes. Don't endanger the alliance, don't pretend to be a spy, don't spy, don't troll off their agenda, and follow their rules. (Alliances better than the NPO will likely have more defined rules)

3. You slowly over time earn the trust of your new alliance via hard work and dedication, and then suddenly you have a home!

I don't expect you to take my advise, as you never have. But I have a home and you don't, so I am clearly doing something right. Also re-rolling is for cowards, so I don't recommend that either.

Actually being in social channels is ok, if other Pacificans are able to access them. If every other Pacifican were not permitted to enter the channel by the owners, yet one person would be permitted, then obviously its a little iffy.

If its social, why the need for exclusion of all your alliance mates? Surely alliance affiliation shouldn't be an issue for social channels.

If it is social, why would AA matter at all? The whole point of a social channel is to talk to people you like, not alliances you like. That's what public channels are for. I can hardly blame someone for not wanting a bunch of NPO members in their channels, and I can't imagine being in an alliance that would tell me what IRC channels I can use, unless I am doing harm to the alliance by doing so. It's just a concept I can't wrap my head around. Why someone would subject themselves to so many absurd rules is just one more reason I can't understand the membership of the NPO.

[Khyber]

Sadly I missed all the logs, but what little I got made me just shake my head. No one comes off looking good in what I saw. No one.

I'm so happy to be in a democratic alliance.

[Delta1212]

If it is social, why would AA matter at all? The whole point of a social channel is to talk to people you like, not alliances you like. That's what public channels are for. I can hardly blame someone for not wanting a bunch of NPO members in their channels, and I can't imagine being in an alliance that would tell me what IRC channels I can use, unless I am doing harm to the alliance by doing so. It's just a concept I can't wrap my head around. Why someone would subject themselves to so many absurd rules is just one more reason I can't understand the membership of the NPO.

And, I mean realistically, are they going to ban you from every MSN group chat or Skype call that doesn't include NPO members? There are a dozen or more different ways to achieve an almost identical effect without getting on IRC, it's just more convenient because you are on there anyway. I really don't understand the logic.

[Eamon Valda]

I didn't expect rise quickly in NPO. I hoped for a home. Something I haven't found yet in this game.

But wasn't it apparent that, when you joined the NPO, what type of alliance it was and that you would need to surrender most of your sovereignty to them? They are fairly autocratic (disregarding the abilities of the body republic) and expect members to obey and not to question. I am not claiming this as right or wrong, only as something that one should expect of them. Then again, I recall you thinking they had changed from before. Was this the reason you thought it would be correct to join them?

Furthermore, I would guess from your actions that you are more an individualist than an alliance like NPO would like. Perhaps your 'home' is not a place where you sacrifice that individual but rather somewhere where it is encouraged (i.e.) New Sith Order?).

As to the naysayers for the actions of the NPO, I understand that they are a very stern alliance with questionable objectives. oreover, when you agree to join an alliance, you agree to its contract of terms. If you disobey those terms, expect punishment for your actions, not a free hand. No contract - and thus alliance principles - would hold up if everyone could simply break it at will. If you don't like how they act, don't join them or collude with them. It is that simple.

[HeinousOne]

Actually being in social channels is ok, if other Pacificans are able to access them. If every other Pacifican were not permitted to enter the channel by the owners, yet one person would be permitted, then obviously its a little iffy.

If its social, why the need for exclusion of all your alliance mates? Surely alliance affiliation shouldn't be an issue for social channels.

Ohhhh really?

I most certainly remember during my time in NPO seeing many of the NPO's upper leadership showing off quotes from conversations of theirs in the leadership irc rooms in which all of "your alliance mates" have no access too. Now, the reason given for that would be that confidential information goes on there of course and that is fine but yet your leaders love to show off their oh so interesting non-confidential and supposedly entertaining quirps from that room in their signatures of your alliance forum. That means alliance mates see that they are having all these interesting non-confidential conversations there instead of having them with their alliance mates.

Do you see the hypocrisy of your statement yet or must I continue Litha?

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

If in this specific channel there are certain people who hold a prominent IC dislike for NPO members then it can flow over into their OOC relationships in social chans.

aka: Cortath imposes himself into Fran's social chan.

He lurks and doesn't contribute to the chan. It seems a waste of space to have him there. AND there are already 4/5 regular pacificans in there most of the time. He clearly didn't trust them or suspected devience?

[Sarai]

Sarai, I've always liked you but you have to understand that noone has any rights in NPO, what happened with Francesca is largely her own fault, yes, but the same thing could just as easily happen to you one day, or anyone in NPO.

Also, you are an excellent mentor and a very contributing and active member of the alliance, your loyalty and dedication has always been unquestioned, and to be honest your talents are wasted in NPO. They're never going to promote you, you're not their type, you've got too many morals.

And there are so many like you in NPO, if people like you were in charge things could have been different...

Ah James, thank you for the kind message. I understand your points and I have to accept them to some extent as being true regarding the "rights" part. But then I signed up for that and I am aware of what I have and have not. I don't seek to be in charge, or power because in the end most of us become what we don't want to be when we are given that.

What I do seek to do is improve the NPO from the inside, without too much drama, without more than a gentle "rocking of the boat". It may not work and yes I do feel down about how little progress is made unless you are an "insider", however progress is made and for that fact I am greatful.

Hard work is reward unto itself and despite the fact I will not be more than I am in terms of 'power' or 'tags', I will be in terms of a person. I develop and grow through challenge, the challenge of myself and the situation I am in.

I respectfully propose that Fran does not do this. She challenges, but then breaks when her challenge is rebuffed. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say.

[Ogaden]

Ah James, thank you for the kind message. I understand your points and I have to accept them to some extent as being true regarding the "rights" part. But then I signed up for that and I am aware of what I have and have not. I don't seek to be in charge, or power because in the end most of us become what we don't want to be when we are given that.

What I do seek to do is improve the NPO from the inside, without too much drama, without more than a gentle "rocking of the boat". It may not work and yes I do feel down about how little progress is made unless you are an "insider", however progress is made and for that fact I am greatful.

Hard work is reward unto itself and despite the fact I will not be more than I am in terms of 'power' or 'tags', I will be in terms of a person. I develop and grow through challenge, the challenge of myself and the situation I am in.

I respectfully propose that Fran does not do this. She challenges, but then breaks when her challenge is rebuffed. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say.

Well, I wish you luck in your council term and I hope that you are right, perhaps things can change.

[Vladimir]

There seems to be some confusion here. The ruling on social channels was Francesca-specific and a direct reaction to numerous concerns about her conduct. It is not a general rule.

[HeinousOne]

Ah James, thank you for the kind message. I understand your points and I have to accept them to some extent as being true regarding the "rights" part. But then I signed up for that and I am aware of what I have and have not. I don't seek to be in charge, or power because in the end most of us become what we don't want to be when we are given that.

What I do seek to do is improve the NPO from the inside, without too much drama, without more than a gentle "rocking of the boat". It may not work and yes I do feel down about how little progress is made unless you are an "insider", however progress is made and for that fact I am greatful.

Hard work is reward unto itself and despite the fact I will not be more than I am in terms of 'power' or 'tags', I will be in terms of a person. I develop and grow through challenge, the challenge of myself and the situation I am in.

I respectfully propose that Fran does not do this. She challenges, but then breaks when her challenge is rebuffed. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say.

Yes, but you have a new Emperor who espouses that things will change yet when it comes to this policy of an individuals sovereignty of themselves and where they frequent in an area OUTSIDE OF THE GAME he is actually worse then his predecessor. So yes that is a change but it certainly is not a change in the direction of NPO members' rights. It is just more of the same, a heavy hand to individuals and soft words to the masses. The masses at the bottom will feel free until they step out of line then they realize they are only free if they act accordingly along the specified directions of the leaders. The fact that such includes them not going to any IRC room that they cannot be checked up upon in just shows the level of paranoia in NPO and how little they actually give a damn about their members. They only care about their nations it seems. If that is enough for you Sarai then so be it but do you honestly feel you are making a difference or are they just telling you nice things to keep you around while never really acting upon it?

There seems to be some confusion here. The ruling on social channels was Francesca-specific and a direct reaction to numerous concerns about her conduct. It is not a general rule.

It IS a general rule if it can be applied specifically. That means you could apply it to anyone at a whim. It makes IRC nothing but a privilage that you feel you have the right to give and take away from your members. That is the truth of it. If you would be open about that with your members and then they still stayed then there would be nothing for anyone to talk about as that is your sovereign right. You lie about it though right here and try to spin it into an existance that it would only happen with Francesca and no one else. The fact is it Could happen with someone else if you deemed such necessary and only you at the top of NPO get to decide what is "necessary" for such.

Edited October 29, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Sarai]

It IS a general rule if it can be applied specifically. That means you could apply it to anyone at a whim. It makes IRC nothing but a privilage that you feel you have the right to give and take away from your members. That is the truth of it. If you would be open about that with your members and then they still stayed then there would be nothing for anyone to talk about as that is your sovereign right. You lie about it though right here and try to spin it into an existance that it would only happen with Francesca and no one else. The fact is it Could happen with someone else if you deemed such necessary and only you at the top of NPO get to decide what is "necessary" for such.

The NPO could do *many things*, the fact that it does not, is proof enough against your statement. If Fran had special terms imposed on her which she accepted, then failed to keep. She is out. Simple. She didn't have to accept the rules, but she did.

As fair as I know, she is the only one. I have private #IRC, no one asks me to stop and I'm hardly "in favor". So, please, NPO needs to improve, but you take it from the wrong direction.

[HeinousOne]

The NPO could do *many things*, the fact that it does not, is proof enough against your statement. If Fran had special terms imposed on her which she accepted, then failed to keep. She is out. Simple. She didn't have to accept the rules, but she did.

As fair as I know, she is the only one. I have private #IRC, no one asks me to stop and I'm hardly "in favor". So, please, NPO needs to improve, but you take it from the wrong direction.

During my time in the NPO I had special rules applied to me too or else I would be out. I fought them for a week internally before I said enough is enough. Come to find out later I hear I was a suspected spy and all kind of other BS.

Fran should have just been booted instead of NPO showing their propensity to try and control people. Its almost like the leaders enjoy such immensely. Why bother with such if you have such distrust for a member?

As far as why they dont do certain things, it is because it would have negative affects to the point of actually costing them nations. The NPO is basically a fine example of a Corporate system that does whatever it can to maintain that Bottom Line and treating people properly doesn't really enter the equation unless it stands to profit from doing such.

Edited October 29, 2009 by HeinousOne

[Litha Riddle]

During my time in the NPO I had special rules applied to me too or else I would be out. I fought them for a week internally before I said enough is enough. Come to find out later I hear I was a suspected spy and all kind of other BS.

Fran should have just been booted instead of NPO showing their propensity to try and control people. Its almost like the leaders enjoy such immensely. Why bother with such if you have such distrust for a member?

Because members like me thought she should be given a chance. We thought that given the chance she'd fit in and all would be well, but we were proved wrong.

I feel bad that it didn't work out, but I don't think we did wrong in giving the chance. And I'd probably do the same again in all honesty.