TGE Aggression

[Haflinger]

Now you're just being cryptic and changing what is being quoted. If you have no say in the matter and are just going to pick at bits and pieces on the fringe of discussion then I'm not interested.

Actually, I'm explaining what I said.

[Vizard]

TGE? I keep wondering whether they're for real or not...

[Captain Flinders]

TGE I beg for you to keep Ivan III as a member. He may not know all the facts, which he has admitted, but he has great potential to repair your PR damage.

I don't know about that. Walking around with your nose in the air isn't great for one's public image.

[Tobirama Senju]

I don't know about that. Walking around with your nose in the air isn't great for one's public image.

True. I only said he has potential.

[kingzog]

What I am saying is that you don't know what it's like NOW. Just as I don't know much back when TGE FIRST started. I know what was going on starting from about 5 months ago. Take then and compare it with now, and you see changes.

Gosh, it was only a few weeks ago that your fearless leader K-Fred the 3-Watt Kaiser was accusing a former TGE Chancellor of being a Nordreich plant. So this change you're talking about, did it happen before that or after? Perhaps the accusation represented the change, or the fact that your leader wouldn't run the risk of making that charge in public lest he look even more foolish?

If you want to know what your leader was like when TGE first started, not long after the alliance's formation I contacted your Kaiser and warned him that one of his members seemed to be bent on causing nothing but trouble between TGE and various alliances. Within days of the warning, the Kaiser had given this individual admin powers over your forums, which were then deleted. I laughed, and I've been laughing at TGE off and on ever since.

[Earl Dumarest]

And to bring the Karma War up I am ashamed at the remaining gov of TGE(non RoA folks) becuz I was WAPA back then I was the one who told Vanadrien Failing and one of the firm members about the war and brought him to task about the war... they didnt listen to me, that is until they were removed from Power and replaced, WAPA then went to war. basically on my begging, I was the one who pretty much saved TGE's bacon... and look I get and got no respect from your precious Idol, Figurehead, Ego inflated nut Frederick WAPA and FOK saved TGE... without use you wouldve been ruined...

Finally!

A ray of sunshine in this gloomy, gloomy thread. An excuse for some hails!

o/ WAPA !

o/ GK!

o/ TGE !

WAPA loves both GK and TGE, so this thread has made unpleasant reading. It's a bit like watching a family argument break up your christmas dinner!

I can confirm that GK did indeed fight for WAPA in the Karma war in defence of TGE, however I do feel I have to protect our honour, and repudiate the notion that we would somehow not have noticed the largest conflict in Bob's history, were it not for his single-handed intervention.

oh yes...

o/ FOK !

[Wilhelm1908]

It a sad state of affairs, when every time an alliance involves itself in, makes comments about or starts threads, it manages to turn it into a PR spectacle/disaster.

As an ex-member of TGE, a personal (real Life) friend of Del Monte and Diplomat to TGE (at a time when Freddie was going through one of his 'phases'), I had and still have a lot of contact with both TGE and ex-TGE members. So I am probably more up-to-date on the workings of TGE than many outsiders.

TGE is an alliance that has always attracted fiercely loyal members to its ranks, that is to be applauded and envied. Sadly it has also often character assassinated and destroyed many of them, chasing away and disillusioning many more.

The problems faced by TGE have been and are, still down to the leadership of one person. When Freddie is on the ball, he is really good. Sadly though, when he goes through one of his mood swings/U Turns/attacks of paranoia, he does untold and often irreparable damage to the reputation of what could and should be a great alliance.

He can consider himself lucky to have blindly loyal followers like Ivan III, it is what has kept him in power for so long. That however, does not detract from the fact that TGE membership has seen a steady decline over the past year and a half. If Freddie became more consistent or devolved his power TGE would always stand for The German Empire, rather than its present reality, They're Going Extinct .

[Ivan III]

I just want to saw something,

Kingzog, you present with all the same "Facts" as you did months ago. Your "Debates are nothing but worthless pieces of spam (I mean spam as in food but both ways work). You use the same arguments and they never change, the only thing that changes are you sarcastic tones. If you can't say anything new, you don't have to be here.

Unfortunately, what i am seeing through this entire argument is the same old arguments that where presented only a few months ago. i find that utterly annoying and thus a waste of time.

Flinders, Kingzog, you both can't say anything new and thus you are irrelevant to this conversation. i am not trying to be rude, but that is how it is with the both of you.

Good day,

Ivan

[Augustus Autumn]

Unfortunately, what i am seeing through this entire argument is the same old arguments that where presented only a few months ago. i find that utterly annoying and thus a waste of time.

The same arguments continue to be presented because they've never been addressed properly. When faced with a conflicting opinion, The German Empire (be it officially or otherwise) tends to either attempt to breeze an answer without providing an actual debate or simply goes silent (which has happened here) and hopes the problem will simply go away. For what it's worth, you've done a better job of speaking up and attempting to address these issues than anyone else in your alliance has in the last year or so.

[AironthFlamewing]

Finally!

A ray of sunshine in this gloomy, gloomy thread. An excuse for some hails!

o/ WAPA !

o/ GK!

o/ TGE !

WAPA loves both GK and TGE, so this thread has made unpleasant reading. It's a bit like watching a family argument break up your christmas dinner!

I can confirm that GK did indeed fight for WAPA in the Karma war in defence of TGE, however I do feel I have to protect our honour, and repudiate the notion that we would somehow not have noticed the largest conflict in Bob's history, were it not for his single-handed intervention.

oh yes...

o/ FOK !

sorry about that man... just a bit of ego padding on my part haha

o/ Dumarest

o/ beloved WAPA

[Ivan III]

The same arguments continue to be presented because they've never been addressed properly. When faced with a conflicting opinion, The German Empire (be it officially or otherwise) tends to either attempt to breeze an answer without providing an actual debate or simply goes silent (which has happened here) and hopes the problem will simply go away. For what it's worth, you've done a better job of speaking up and attempting to address these issues than anyone else in your alliance has in the last year or so.

I'm a bit confused. Did you just say I did a good job, bad job, or so-so?

But the reason why TGE will not talk in these types of debates is because you use the same arguments. If you come up with something new I'm sure things will turn around.

And a lot of these "Debates" are not debates. Look at Kingzog for instance. He just out right attacked Fritz. How would you feel if someone kept attacking you and you can't convince them otherwise? It's stubbornness there. TGE is willing to talk (Mostly from talking with TGE people/gov) but it needs to be more civil. It can't be like what Zog, Findlers or even I did/do. It would need to be much more civil.

[Captain Flinders]

TGE is willing to talk (Mostly from talking with TGE people/gov) but it needs to be more civil. It can't be like what Zog, Findlers or even I did/do. It would need to be much more civil.

Then please answer the question I keep posing so civilly. You said that TGE has changed in the past five months. Most of us have seen evidence to the contrary so can you please show me how practices and/or attitudes have changed in TGE?

[Alarik Martens]

disregard.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Alarik Martens

[Ivan III]

Then please answer the question I keep posing so civilly. You said that TGE has changed in the past five months. Most of us have seen evidence to the contrary so can you please show me how practices and/or attitudes have changed in TGE?

1)The Constitution shows changes. (Though you may not like this one)

2) you said that Fritz cracks down and punishes people who speak against what he wants, I believe. Or someone said that, the change there is that people speak freely as ever. I question him, I question the gov. as a whole, I have debated Fritz's ideas. Not one scratch has come to me. Also, people inside TGE (Not just me) do the same. I would post his name here but I do not have his permission. If I did I would most definally say it. I have even critizezed some people in gov. for some things.

3) Some say that Fritz has an ego. from what I see (And I see Fritz a lot on IRC and forums) he has no ego. He's open to ideas, and he even said he apologized on an action. (Same with Chris too)

[Augustus Autumn]

I'm a bit confused. Did you just say I did a good job, bad job, or so-so?

I was commending you on taking a shot at what your government is too scared to do.

But the reason why TGE will not talk in these types of debates is because you use the same arguments. If you come up with something new I'm sure things will turn around.

Again, there are questions that simply get avoided or breezed over every time they've come up. The second the alliance's credibility or track record gets questioned the alliance's government as a whole goes silent - in the past, they would be saved by persons from TPF, FOK!, CPCN or myriads of patriots like yourself who were articulate, able to fight back against persons like Captain Flinders or Kingzog with slanderous propaganda and a public willing to crucify them. Now, your alliance does not have that shield to hide behind anymore. The German Empire always attempted to deflect attention by pointing at Nordreich, Norden Verein or some other opponent and yelling about how much worse they were - these days, those alliances are either gone or simply do not care and thus there's nothing to deflect onto.

Short and sweet, people want answers and until they get anything resembling them they'll likely keep asking the same questions.

And a lot of these "Debates" are not debates. Look at Kingzog for instance. He just out right attacked Fritz. How would you feel if someone kept attacking you and you can't convince them otherwise?

I post a full explanation of my activities, my actions, and answer questions as they come up. If someone is intent on continuously attacking me without addressing my counter-questions to them I simply ignore them but I at least have the decency to attempt to address them, not pretend they don't exist and hope they go away on their own.

It's stubbornness there. TGE is willing to talk (Mostly from talking with TGE people/gov) but it needs to be more civil. It can't be like what Zog, Findlers or even I did/do. It would need to be much more civil.

Then the obvious solution here is for Frederick II, Karl I, President Chris and other members of your government to post a standard Questions-and-Answers thread and address every single question which arises in a complete and forthright fashion complete with the facts to back them up. I doubt your government has the courage to do this but maybe, just maybe, they'll surprise us and actually carry through. Consider the proverbial gauntlet to have been thrown.

[Captain Flinders]

1)The Constitution shows changes. (Though you may not like this one)

You're right, I don't like it. Especially since your "new" charter is highly discriminatory.

2) you said that Fritz cracks down and punishes people who speak against what he wants, I believe. Or someone said that, the change there is that people speak freely as ever. I question him, I question the gov. as a whole, I have debated Fritz's ideas. Not one scratch has come to me. Also, people inside TGE (Not just me) do the same. I would post his name here but I do not have his permission. If I did I would most definally say it. I have even critizezed some people in gov. for some things.

Also not a change. When I was in TGE government I questioned government practice openly as well. I even ran a campaign to drop certain allies. It is not until after you are removed from the alliance that the Kaiser and his cronies will slander your name. When you are a legitimate member they cannot be seen talking ill of you as that would only sow seeds of confusion and panic in the alliance. But take my campaign in TGE to drop the CPCN MDP for example. When the idea was brought before government it was debated and discussed in length. There was even government that voted in favor of the cancellation. In the end it did not pass and the motion died there and I didn't hear another thing on it. However, after my removal from the alliance I hear that I was a saboteur and provocateur for suggesting such radical things. The slander only comes at a time when it is most advantageous. Those in RoA, the same people your government is trying to enforce a blackout upon, were once TGE's high government. Were they spoken ill of while there? Absolutely not. But now that it is advantageous to do so, your membership is told that they are traitors and deserve to be shunned. No change at all. Not one bit.

Oh and what about this blackout business? What if you were to disobey this order not to speak to RoA? Is he not dictating your speech there as well?

3) Some say that Fritz has an ego. from what I see (And I see Fritz a lot on IRC and forums) he has no ego. He's open to ideas, and he even said he apologized on an action. (Same with Chris too)

You want to talk ego? How about I come to your alliance and tell you who you can and cannot have in your membership? How about I ban you from our IRC channel because you have voiced an opposing view to mine? How about I boast of my destruction of your alliance openly and proclaim my work unfinished until I see one of your members in high standing in ruin? Oh I know ego. And your Kaiser displays it in droves.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Tom Litler]

So what if their charter is highly discriminatory? They said they changed since before. They didn't say they changed for the better, though.

[Bjornoya]

you said that Fritz cracks down and punishes people who speak against what he wants, I believe. Or someone said that, the change there is that people speak freely as ever. I question him, I question the gov. as a whole, I have debated Fritz's ideas. Not one scratch has come to me. Also, people inside TGE (Not just me) do the same. I would post his name here but I do not have his permission. If I did I would most definally say it. I have even critizezed some people in gov. for some things.

No one speaks freely in TGE. Last thing I saw before heading out the door was your Kaiser superseding the Reichstag to implement a law requiring 'respect and civility' on the forum after several members spoke out against what government officials were doing following the war. The criticisms in question were hardly disrespectful or uncivilized, but the criticism tends to turn that way once the leadership has made up its mind to silence you. What really irked me was they used the terms 'civility' and 'respect' to promote this and other censorship. Last time I checked civilized and respectful people allowed freedom of speech.

[Tiberius C Nero]

No one speaks freely in TGE. Last thing I saw before heading out the door was your Kaiser superseding the Reichstag to implement a law requiring 'respect and civility' on the forum after several members spoke out against what government officials were doing following the war. The criticisms in question were hardly disrespectful or uncivilized, but the criticism tends to turn that way once the leadership has made up its mind to silence you. What really irked me was they used the terms 'civility' and 'respect' to promote this and other censorship. Last time I checked civilized and respectful people allowed freedom of speech.

What about them rules that were posted on the old TGE forums?

You know the ones regarding the treatment of TSI on IRC? Do you remember those Kaiser Kevin?

[Adam Suttler]

What about them rules that were posted on the old TGE forums?

You know the ones regarding the treatment of TSI on IRC? Do you remember those Kaiser Kevin?

Please, do tell.

[John A MacDonald]

Ah', Liman - one to talk about IRC treatment to others...

If this whole ordeal is based on an MSN conversation, let me shed some light onto the subject... GK, you told me the only reason you opened this thread was to purposely hurt TGE's PR (naturally... this is obvious) and another reason for it was;

Jordan (GK) says:

you see

im trying to nail them in the balls with bad pr

enough whereas they get angry enough to go to war with me

Mada (myself) says:

They won't.

Jordan says:

then my allies will come swoop in and kill them.

- "LOOL im destroying TGE and having a bang up time doing it"

Surely this isn't much, but its pretty funny to me... Also, didn't Valdemar ask you NOT to post this? So essentially you are doing this out of personal hatred and so forth... Oh well.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Sir John A MacDonald

[nosoup4you]

Alright, can we please put this topic to bed? I do not care for the flavor of this conversation anymore (despite the addition of JAM ♥). I have contacted TGE's government and hope to get this all taken care of so that we can be friendly again. Please allow us to take care of this private matter in PRIVATE.

Edited August 28, 2009 by nosoup4you

[Ivan III]

You're right, I don't like it. Especially since your "new" charter is highly discriminatory.

Also not a change. When I was in TGE government I questioned government practice openly as well. I even ran a campaign to drop certain allies. It is not until after you are removed from the alliance that the Kaiser and his cronies will slander your name. When you are a legitimate member they cannot be seen talking ill of you as that would only sow seeds of confusion and panic in the alliance. But take my campaign in TGE to drop the CPCN MDP for example. When the idea was brought before government it was debated and discussed in length. There was even government that voted in favor of the cancellation. In the end it did not pass and the motion died there and I didn't hear another thing on it. However, after my removal from the alliance I hear that I was a saboteur and provocateur for suggesting such radical things. The slander only comes at a time when it is most advantageous. Those in RoA, the same people your government is trying to enforce a blackout upon, were once TGE's high government. Were they spoken ill of while there? Absolutely not. But now that it is advantageous to do so, your membership is told that they are traitors and deserve to be shunned. No change at all. Not one bit.

Oh and what about this blackout business? What if you were to disobey this order not to speak to RoA? Is he not dictating your speech there as well?

You want to talk ego? How about I come to your alliance and tell you who you can and cannot have in your membership? How about I ban you from our IRC channel because you have voiced an opposing view to mine? How about I boast of my destruction of your alliance openly and proclaim my work unfinished until I see one of your members in high standing in ruin? Oh I know ego. And your Kaiser displays it in droves.

^^this is what I am talking about. No civility, no respect. In other words, I should not even be quoting him AT ALL.

No one speaks freely in TGE. Last thing I saw before heading out the door was your Kaiser superseding the Reichstag to implement a law requiring 'respect and civility' on the forum after several members spoke out against what government officials were doing following the war. The criticisms in question were hardly disrespectful or uncivilized, but the criticism tends to turn that way once the leadership has made up its mind to silence you. What really irked me was they used the terms 'civility' and 'respect' to promote this and other censorship. Last time I checked civilized and respectful people allowed freedom of speech.

When did you leave? Depending on what your time frame is, things may have changed, as i stated earlier

Alright, can we please put this topic to bed? I do not care for the flavor of this conversation anymore (despite the addition of JAM ♥). I have contacted TGE's government and hope to get this all taken care of so that we can be friendly again. Please allow us to take care of this private matter in PRIVATE.

What are you talking about? We are not getting rude or anything now, well, except Flanders. He's the exception as always

this has turned the corner, we have (Most of us) are civil now. Not to mention that this is now a debate, a true debate until something goes uncivil/disrespectful.

[Captain Flinders]

^^this is what I am talking about. No civility, no respect.

Go ahead and show me where I was uncivil or disrespectful. I highlighted your statements as false. That in and of itself is not disrespectful.

In other words, I should not even be quoting him AT ALL.

You especially should not be quoting me if you're not going to make a rebuttal. It just makes you look silly.

What are you talking about? We are not getting rude or anything now, well, except Flanders. He's the exception as always

And once again, where have I been rude? You can also plainly see how my name is spelled. I see no reason to feign idiocy.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Ivan III]

Oh and what about this blackout business? What if you were to disobey this order not to speak to RoA? Is he not dictating your speech there as well?

You want to talk ego? How about I come to your alliance and tell you who you can and cannot have in your membership? How about I ban you from our IRC channel because you have voiced an opposing view to mine? How about I boast of my destruction of your alliance openly and proclaim my work unfinished until I see one of your members in high standing in ruin? Oh I know ego. And your Kaiser displays it in droves.

Red: That came off very very rude and disrespectful.

Blue: So, if an alliance tried to bait another alliance into war or whatever, what is the best policy? Not talking to an alliance so that no "Heated arguments" (Noticed how I said arguments and not debates) and no more "Hostilities" happen, I find that is an ok thing to do. If this stops all uncivilly and disrespect for at least a while, along with stopping the "No-U" arguments, ok fine. I really don't want a "Heated Debate" to turn into a war; so to speak.