NPO History Discussion

[WorldConqueror]

The cassus bellum against GATO (GATO-1V), FAN, ONOS and GPA were utter fabrications, entirely transparent as the means of systematic elimination of potential 'opponents' that they were. The NADC-BLEU war is another example, but on Polaris' turf. The incidents which led to these wars were relatively minor, and diplomatic solutions would have always been sought by any normal alliance without such an aggresive agenda. The only reason they were successful was because of the sheer political influence weilded by Pacifica, and their role as the 'Head Purveyor' of a culture of fear throughout the world in general and the Upper Hegemony in particular.

No, no they weren't. The incidents were not fabricated. You can say that you may not have declared war over them, but the incidents happened. Chris Kaos was the one responsible for GATO being such a thorn in Pacifica's side at least since the GPW. It was a surrender term that he not be allowed back. He was, and the surrender was revoked.

The FAN war was absolutely justified, and the reasons for it should be so well known that I shouldn't have to repeat them. But I will if I have to.

ONOS was spying on us. They paid the price, like many before them.

And GPA was a combination of government incompetence, provocation of Pacifica, and violating the DoN.

So maybe you would not have declared war. But we were certainly justified in doing so.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

And idiots like you make me glad I'm an NPO member. Like that quote floating around somewhere says, it's like having a retard shield.

We got a spy elected president? Prove it.

Not directly, but as I said shortly before, I consider enabling to be effectively the same thing. And Kurushio has confessed he was an agent of Valhalla.

Which was pretty well understood already, circumstantially. He had beaten Great Dzar in the crucial election due to a spam campaign which appeared to have used outside resources. And after giving them what they wanted, masquing Swampy (though only as an affiliate, which is why I say you STILL didnt have a real CB) he resigned and became Assistant Secretary of Defense at NATO almost immediately. He went on to become VP of NATO, and then joined Valhalla with the rank of Chancellor after that.

I'm sure someone here can find you a link to where he confessed and named who he had been working for...

Edited August 27, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[WorldConqueror]

Not directly, but as I said shortly before, I consider enabling to be effectively the same thing. And Kurushio has confessed he was an agent of Valhalla.

Which was pretty well understood already, circumstantially. He had beaten Great Dzar in the crucial election due to a spam campaign which appeared to have used outside resources. And after giving them what they wanted, masquing Swampy (though only as an affiliate, which is why I say you STILL didnt have a real CB) he resigned and became Assistant Secretary of Defense at NATO immediately. He went on to become VP of NATO, and then joined Valhalla with the rank of Chancellor after that.

I'm sure someone here can find you a link to where he confessed and named who he had been working for...

Oh right, I forgot that we are the puppet masters and our allies have no independent thoughts or control over their actions. Silly me. Valhalla did it, so we did it. Right.

Outside resources?

Lord Swampy was only part of the CB. As for where Kuru went after GPA, that's neither here nor there.

[Angrator]

Complaints? Pity party? Where? Give me an example. Calling out people for disregarding treaties? Yes. If that's complaining then gee CN is full of whiners, what with all the complaining directed at ODN, eh?

Where did I say anything about becoming a member of Frostbite? You like to put words in people's mouths, don't you? Or maybe you just don't understand the English language. My condolences.

EDIT: Also, I don't want your 10 foot pole anywhere near me or the NPO.

The whole dispute about the terms given the NPO became a pity party imo. I`m glad that is over. It lasted far too long.

As for the frostbite thing, it`s no secret that the NPO has been trying to peddle its wares all over town.

[WorldConqueror]

The whole dispute about the terms given the NPO became a pity party imo. I`m glad that is over. It lasted far too long.

As for the frostbite thing, it`s no secret that the NPO has been trying to peddle its wares all over town.

Oh ok. So people saying that ridiculous terms are ridiculous, is a pity party because the terms were intended for Pacifica. Gotcha.

Read our terms. No treaties without approval from Karma. If we can't sign Red Dawn, why would we be allowed to join Frostbite? Also, I really, really doubt we would have seriously tried to get into Frostbite. You have to be joking.

[Angrator]

Oh ok. So people saying that ridiculous terms are ridiculous, is a pity party because the terms were intended for Pacifica. Gotcha.

Read our terms. No treaties without approval from Karma. If we can't sign Red Dawn, why would we be allowed to join Frostbite? Also, I really, really doubt we would have seriously tried to get into Frostbite. You have to be joking.

You never get old. Even after being told simple facts time and time again, you refuse to accept them. Good luck with your war against reality. I wish you the best.

[WorldConqueror]

You never get old. Even after being told simple facts time and time again, you refuse to accept them. Good luck with your war against reality. I wish you the best.

I'm like Peter Pan! What 'simple facts' are you telling me? That there was a pity party over terms? That we tried to join Frostbite? They aren't 'simple facts'. That's unsubstantiated bull%&$#.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Oh right, I forgot that we are the puppet masters and our allies have no independent thoughts or control over their actions. Silly me. Valhalla did it, so we did it. Right.

Oh no, quite to the contrary. Valhalla and NPO worked hand in glove on it. Its inconceivable that your government didnt know what was done and approve of it.

Outside resources?

Yes, some of the messages were sent by microscopic ghost nations. Curious that, dont you think?

Lord Swampy was only part of the CB.

Actually he was the centerpiece. Yet, contrary to the claim, he was never a member of the GPA.

As for where Kuru went after GPA, that's neither here nor there.

I dont believe you are gullible enough to believe this yourself.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[He Who Has No Name]

The only thing I have to add here in a discussion of NPO's history, is this:

WorldConqueror, it is the keen arguing skills of you and your alliance mates like you that have gotten NPO to where it is today.

Bless you.

Edited August 27, 2009 by He Who Has No Name

[Essenia]

I'm like Peter Pan! What 'simple facts' are you telling me? That there was a pity party over terms? That we tried to join Frostbite? They aren't 'simple facts'. That's unsubstantiated bull%&$#.

Your talking about NPO never declaring war without a valid CB completely ignored the second FAN war. And of course you denied NPO ever spied and were debunked by none other than the former Emperor of NPO. Forgive me for doubting your credibility (and credulity I might add).

[HellAngel]

It's pretty easy to say you never declared war without valid CB when your standard for CBs is as low as NPOs.

[Angrator]

It's pretty easy to say you never declared war without valid CB when your standard for CBs is as low as NPOs.

They gave out CBs like candy at a parade.

[Valerius]

No, no they weren't. The incidents were not fabricated. You can say that you may not have declared war over them, but the incidents happened. Chris Kaos was the one responsible for GATO being such a thorn in Pacifica's side at least since the GPW. It was a surrender term that he not be allowed back. He was, and the surrender was revoked.

The FAN war was absolutely justified, and the reasons for it should be so well known that I shouldn't have to repeat them. But I will if I have to.

ONOS was spying on us. They paid the price, like many before them.

And GPA was a combination of government incompetence, provocation of Pacifica, and violating the DoN.

So maybe you would not have declared war. But we were certainly justified in doing so.

I could adress how you have too simply described the above situations in Pacifica's favour, especially FAN's (I am referringto the re-declaration) and GATO's. But I think a better rebuttal can be made simply by mentioning the fact that each of the 4 alliances listed posed a great threat to Pacifican domination, and their elimination furthered it greatly. The cassis bellum were a series of all too convenient means to a very satisfying end. That is conviction enough.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

I could adress how you have too simply described the above situations in Pacifica's favour, especially FAN's (I am referringto the re-declaration) and GATO's. But I think a better rebuttal can be made simply by mentioning the fact that each of the 4 alliances listed posed a great threat to Pacifican domination, and their elimination furthered it greatly. The cassis bellum were a series of all too convenient means to a very satisfying end. That is conviction enough.

The GPA categorically never posed any kind of threat to Pacifica. But by passing them in the rankings, and making that bloody peace-rune on the top 100 map (which was an unanticipated side-effect of doing it on the alliance map in actual fact,) we just became too visible a target for them to ignore apparently.

FAN was re-declared on with pseudo-legalistic hair-splitting technical justification. In the long-term of course they were a threat, in the short-term not so much, which meant that Pacifica could easily have been honourable and given them considerable leeway only to swoop in and arrange their doom with a month or two to spare had they wanted to. I have no idea why they chose to take the low road.

In particular since that just resulted in them later getting so hard up for targets they did the GPA... really, make up your mind, are you too secure or too bored? If you are on top and you play it safe you shouldnt complain you're bored cause no one wants to fight you. If you want to fight more you should find excuses to loosen up a little so potential threats can build into real ones.

Instead, Pacifica tried to have her cake and eat it too - staying super secure, but staging organised tech-raids on a regular basis, like the fake hunts where stupid rich people have servants groom "game" for them and run it in front of their weapon at just the right moment. All reward, no risk.

[Valerius]

The first CB was decent. FAN signed an agreement they shouldn't have with NAAC during GWIII, attacked an NPO protectorate and attacked GOONS nations who were pursuing EoGs that had come onto yellow. The second FAN war, however, had one of the most dishonorable and pathetic CB's in the histoy of the game; it revealed NPO to the whole world as alliance that would do anything, no matter how low, to destroy its 'enemies'.

Sorry, I should have clarified myself. I was referring to the second declaration on FAN. So yes, you're right.

The GPA categorically never posed any kind of threat to Pacifica. But by passing them in the rankings, and making that bloody peace-rune on the top 100 map (which was an unanticipated side-effect of doing it on the alliance map in actual fact,) we just became too visible a target for them to ignore apparently.

I meant that GPA posed a threat insofar as their place at #1 was contrary to the 'Pax Pacifica'. I don't think anyone - not even the NPO leadership - thought that they posed a military or diplomatic threat. No, their threat was purely ideological.

FAN was re-declared on with pseudo-legalistic hair-splitting technical justification. In the long-term of course they were a threat, in the short-term not so much, which meant that Pacifica could easily have been honourable and given them considerable leeway only to swoop in and arrange their doom with a month or two to spare had they wanted to. I have no idea why they chose to take the low road.

In particular since that just resulted in them later getting so hard up for targets they did the GPA... really, make up your mind, are you too secure or too bored? If you are on top and you play it safe you shouldnt complain you're bored cause no one wants to fight you. If you want to fight more you should find excuses to loosen up a little so potential threats can build into real ones.

Instead, Pacifica tried to have her cake and eat it too - staying super secure, but staging organised tech-raids on a regular basis, like the fake hunts where stupid rich people have servants groom "game" for them and run it in front of their weapon at just the right moment. All reward, no risk.

Precisely.

[WorldConqueror]

Oh no, quite to the contrary. Valhalla and NPO worked hand in glove on it. Its inconceivable that your government didnt know what was done and approve of it.

Why is that inconceivable?

Yes, some of the messages were sent by microscopic ghost nations. Curious that, dont you think?

It is, but that doesn't necessarily mean Pacifica or Valhalla had anything to do with it. Kuru may have organized it himself in order to secure the Presidency.

Actually he was the centerpiece. Yet, contrary to the claim, he was never a member of the GPA.

From the wiki: * Ignoring an insulting IRC name aimed at Bilrow, the official responsible was later expelled from GPA.

* Valid editing a post by Dilber

* GPA officials lying about punishing Valid (Valid was later punished and expelled.

* Valid laughing about not being punished

* Valid lying about Dilber swearing

* A GPA member aiding a member of GOONS, and not kicked till almost 3 weeks later, with GPA lying to IRON about putting this member on trial for a week. It was later revealed that this was largely due to inactivity among key GPA government members.

* LSF fiasco - Threatening people who had left LSF long before anything happened, threatening SPQR and TOOL if they didn't give up people who were full members of either alliances but had left LSF within a few months of the problems with LSF and the GPA

* Valid deleting but being let back in under his new nation. He was not placed on the NPO ZI or perma ZI list, nor was the issue of his permanent fate resolved because he resigned from GPA and deleted before it could be determined.

* Offering protection to Lord Swampy a nation on the Valhalla perma zi list. It turns out he was only offered affiliate status, which doesn't mean he was offered protection from anyone's ZI lists. He was expelled from GPA as soon as GPA found out he was on NPO's and Valhalla's perma-ZI lists. (Both groups did not inform the GPA, and came in yelling about the acceptance)

Hardly all about Lord Swampy.

I dont believe you are gullible enough to believe this yourself.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Just because he went to a Continuum alliance after GPA does not prove that he was working for them beforehand.

[WorldConqueror]

I could adress how you have too simply described the above situations in Pacifica's favour, especially FAN's (I am referringto the re-declaration) and GATO's. But I think a better rebuttal can be made simply by mentioning the fact that each of the 4 alliances listed posed a great threat to Pacifican domination, and their elimination furthered it greatly. The cassis bellum were a series of all too convenient means to a very satisfying end. That is conviction enough.

I described the above situations in favour of Pacifica, because Pacifica was in the right in those situations. And are you serious? ONOS posed a great threat to our domination? I don't think anyone could argue that with a straight face. GPA is an alliance of hippies, they are the last alliance that would be on the list to be taken out for realpolitik. GATO has never been a military threat to Pacifica. At most they were a kind of figurehead of the democratic alliances. FAN is the only one that is somewhat conceivable, until you look at the war and see that all their allies turned against them. You can't rule the world alone.

[Valerius]

WorldConqueror: A military response against a neutral alliance is never acceptable. Slight infringements of the DoN on an individual level require diplomatic concern and, at the most, military action taken against the violating nation. The military assault was grossly inappropriate, and even rather cowardly.

You refuse to accept the common sensical argument that the war against GPA was about nothing other than GPA's place at #1. This is readily accepted by almost everyone these days purely because of your alliances aggressive nature in the past.

[WorldConqueror]

The GPA categorically never posed any kind of threat to Pacifica. But by passing them in the rankings, and making that bloody peace-rune on the top 100 map (which was an unanticipated side-effect of doing it on the alliance map in actual fact,) we just became too visible a target for them to ignore apparently.

FAN was re-declared on with pseudo-legalistic hair-splitting technical justification. In the long-term of course they were a threat, in the short-term not so much, which meant that Pacifica could easily have been honourable and given them considerable leeway only to swoop in and arrange their doom with a month or two to spare had they wanted to. I have no idea why they chose to take the low road.

In particular since that just resulted in them later getting so hard up for targets they did the GPA... really, make up your mind, are you too secure or too bored? If you are on top and you play it safe you shouldnt complain you're bored cause no one wants to fight you. If you want to fight more you should find excuses to loosen up a little so potential threats can build into real ones.

Instead, Pacifica tried to have her cake and eat it too - staying super secure, but staging organised tech-raids on a regular basis, like the fake hunts where stupid rich people have servants groom "game" for them and run it in front of their weapon at just the right moment. All reward, no risk.

Ah, and the truth comes out. An ex-GPA member. You really think it was about you passing us in the rankings? We repassed you in peacetime. We were growing faster than you. We were back on top for a while before the war broke out. So that argument doesn't really work.

FAN was redeclared on because of widespread violations of the peace terms. Again, you can say you wouldn't have declared war for it, and more power to you, but we were absolutely justified in doing so.

It wasn't about being secure or bored. It was about acting to protect Pacifica and its interests.

[WorldConqueror]

WorldConqueror: A military response against a neutral alliance is never acceptable. Slight infringements of the DoN on an individual level require diplomatic concern and, at the most, military action taken against the violating nation. The military assault was grossly inappropriate, and even rather cowardly.

You refuse to accept the common sensical argument that the war against GPA was about nothing other than GPA's place at #1. This is readily accepted by almost everyone these days purely because of your alliances aggressive nature in the past.

Like I said, we had already passed GPA. We were growing faster than them. Doesn't that make your point moot?

[Ivan Moldavi]

Not NSO, because you guys have no style. I mean seriously, your flag is hideous.

Style, especially in this realm, rarely has much to do with the cut of my jacket.

In regards to some other comments here, there were numerous occasions in which the NPO was wholly and completely justified to take military action. Simply because certain parties were on the opposing side of the events doesn't mean that the NPO automatically and consistently acted without valid casus belli.

[Valerius]

And are you serious? ONOS posed a great threat to our domination? I don't think anyone could argue that with a straight face.

ONOS, together with GUARD, posed the only serious military threat to the Initiative after GWIII. But they also posed an extremely ideological one. The idea that an alliance could exist, prosper and become sanctioned without any connection of any sort to the NPO was contradictory to the Pax Pacifica. ONOS was the only non-Initiative sanctioned alliance which had not already been defeated.

GATO has never been a military threat to Pacifica.

I lol'd.

GPA is an alliance of hippies, they are the last alliance that would be on the list to be taken out for realpolitik.

I would have thought that too. But I was, and you are, wrong.

Like I said, we had already passed GPA. We were growing faster than them. Doesn't that make your point moot?

* Frown. First of all I'd dispute that, but feel free to provide evidence. But no, it doesn't make moot my point. Similarly to ONOS, GPA posed an ideological threat to Pacifica and the Pax simply by existing as a sanctioned alliance outside of the NPO's sphere of control.

Edited August 27, 2009 by President Kent

[Haflinger]

And Kurushio has confessed he was an agent of Valhalla.

Which was pretty well understood already, circumstantially. He had beaten Great Dzar in the crucial election due to a spam campaign which appeared to have used outside resources. And after giving them what they wanted, masquing Swampy (though only as an affiliate, which is why I say you STILL didnt have a real CB) he resigned and became Assistant Secretary of Defense at NATO almost immediately.

This is all evidence that Valhalla was involved in the CB for the GPA war. Which I've said. They were the ones who were ticked about Swampy.

I think you've confused NPO with NPO's allies once again. If you were to say this stuff about Valhalla - particularly under noWedge, but to a lesser extent since - you'd find some support here. But the reality is, NPO has made mistakes supporting their allies when they shouldn't have. (Although not in the GPA war. Funny how people forget these: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9320 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9453 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=13732 - but people have a short memory when it comes to the people they have grudges against.)

[WorldConqueror]

ONOS, together with GUARD, posed the only serious military threat to the Initiative after GWIII. But they also posed an extremely ideological one. The idea that an alliance could exist, prosper and become sanctioned without any connection of any sort to Pacifica was contradictory to the Pax Pacifica. ONOS was the only non-Initiative sanctioned alliance which had not already been defeated.

I lol'd.

I would have thought that too. But I was, and you are, wrong.

* Frown. First of all I'd dispute that, but feel free to provide evidence. But no, it doesn't make moot my point. Similarly to ONOS, GPA posed an ideological threat to Pacifica and the Pax simply by existing as a sanctioned alliance.

Oh come on. You can not be trying to tell me that GUARD posed any kind of threat to the Initiative. The very notion is ridiculous.

GATO is some kind of military superpower? Since when? We were pretty much always stronger than them, and even if not in total NS, we had the stronger upper tier.

Why am I wrong? Because they were attacked? They screwed up. Like I said before, if alliances screw up and stumble into the crosshairs, are we supposed to give them a pat on the back and say "better luck next time"? I think not.

I'm not the one trying to say that GPA was attacked because they were number one when they weren't number one. >_>

[Rafael Nadal]

I described the above situations in favour of Pacifica, because Pacifica was in the right in those situations. And are you serious? ONOS posed a great threat to our domination? I don't think anyone could argue that with a straight face. GPA is an alliance of hippies, they are the last alliance that would be on the list to be taken out for realpolitik. GATO has never been a military threat to Pacifica. At most they were a kind of figurehead of the democratic alliances. FAN is the only one that is somewhat conceivable, until you look at the war and see that all their allies turned against them. You can't rule the world alone.

Is it hard for you to write this stuff? I'm not an expert on the other situations, so I avoided arguing them, as it seems you should as well, but either you are a damned fool or somehow believe you can never admit NPO fabricated CB's against alliances to give themselves a somewhat legitimate reason to go after them. Of course, if you believe the latter, you're also a damned fool, so damned if you do damned if you don't, I guess.

Do you remember who they spy was in ONOS? I do. It was a ruler named Da Choice. Wrote all of our guides, was a very high ranking gov't member. Had his own offsite spy documents in google docs iirc, since the others in gov't above him wouldn't sanction his attempts to run an intelligence gathering program. I believe Da Choice's position was the #3 ranking officer at the time. So then all of a sudden one day we get contacted that we're in possession of stolen NPO guides (laughable really, since by that time most alliances' guides were all relatively similar; it was far enough into the game that most big secrets to growth had already become common knowledge). I don't recall how much in reps NPO wanted, but it was something absurd, ridiculously high, on the pretense of "all the advantages we gained from them over such a long period of time". A cynic might even muse that NPO put the price on their guides so high in order to ensure that we scoffed at the reps amount (the main difference in how people play now and back then is the availability of cash assets. Cash didn't float around or get horded in warchests back then. Warchests were what you could save in the 3 days to a week before a war started.) Regardless, I won't claim that, because you're going to argue that claim, and quite frankly, that claim is not important to the overall situation.

Moving on, NPO declared war on us. How many rounds of war did Da Choice receive? A GRAND TOTAL OF ZERO ROUNDS OF WAR? ZERO YOU ASK? HOW COULD THAT POSSIBLY BE?! Well it's pretty simple. Da Choice was accepted into NPO, right before we were declared on. Yes, that's right. The person in ONOS who was accused of spying on NPO, the very reason given for declaring on us, was given refuge in NPO.

Please, conveniently simplify away this one. BTW, I was decently high and involved in gov't in ONOS, nothing top 3, but I was decently in the loop there, and I also happen to have the long time #2 in my current alliance, so it's hard to bs me on this situation.

This CB came around not because ONOS was a threat to Pacifica, we were getting big, but nowhere near Pacifica's size, but because we were a potential future threat to Pacifica. We had our own group of tight nit allies, with relatively few to no ties to Pacifica's own concentration of allies. However, GUARD was growing, and was lead by ONOS and NADC. As a side note, this situation pretty much showcased the others in GUARD, especially NADC, to be !@#$%*es. Back to the reasoning though. GUARD was growing and was mainly lead by ONOS, who you could say it looked like had actual ambitions to be a real political player in the world. And since GUARD was pretty much completely independent of NPO, and most of CN actually, as we were an independent bloc, we were seen as opposing NPO; posing a possible future threat to their dominance, and it would be better to take us out at that time, instead of waiting for us to get even larger and possibly gain more GUARD members.

Especially looking back now, it's clear as day that the rest of GUARD was simply not up to the par ONOS was, nor did they all want to be what ONOS wanted to be. When we at ONOS asked GUARD to get their nuke stockpiles up, because we figured with our growth and independent nature from NPO's circle, our number would eventually come up, and it did. And the others in GUARD didn't improve their nuke stockpiles one bit, and actually nobody fought on our behalf. GUARD sucked horribly, plain and simple, there's no sugar coating it. It was a great bloc, with horrible constituents. EmperorCharles, the leader of NADC, was a complete idiot who thought he could somehow use his relations with NPO to get us out of this situation, lol. It was actually really funny to watch NADC get rolled later on, in the same manner that it was incredibly hilarious to watch Legion get rolled in GW3. Actually, Legion after GW2 and leading up to GW3 was quite similar in thinking to the rest of GUARD signatories, which is to conclude, their overall policy was idiotic.

And also, for what it's worth, a few of us at ONOS had started enacting a plan to first strike nuke all nuke capable nations of WUT. We knew our day would come, and it would be better for us to just say damn the pr, and first strike nuke any and all WUT nations in range of being nuked. That was our only chance of securing any sort of victory or stalemate. Of course, as I've said, our allies in GUARD were !@#$%*, and naive, and blind, and thought they could reason there way out of anything. They also justified everything to themselves that they weren't a potential threat to NPO, because they didn't have any ambition to do anything other than exist really. They either didn't understand, or didn't want to admit, that their very existence, in the manner they existed, put themselves at odds with NPO.