TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[janax]

We had CB. We had the ability. You had nobody. But you did get a treaty with a tC person, in that NAP. Which meant you couldn't get rolled. And you had people that liked you (that'd be us), and people that wanted to try to work things out (that'd be TPF). The irony is enough to make my eyes bleed

Didn't the Mobius Accords require a DEFENSIVE treaty, not just any treaty, to make you an invalid target?

I believe the wording was something to the effect of "obligated to defend"

[toto]

Wow, TPF must have really had bad leadership if they ended up saving that which they wanted destroyed.

[kulomascovia]

Didn't the Mobius Accords require a DEFENSIVE treaty, not just any treaty, to make you an invalid target?

I believe the wording was something to the effect of "obligated to defend"

A – In the event that any signatory comes under attack, it is compulsory that all other signatories will come to the assistance of the attacked party.

B – An attack on one signatory shall be considered an attack on all signatories and will be met in defense by all other signatories with all means of assistance available. This assistance is mandatory and may not be overridden or mitigated by any means, including but not limited to conflicting agreements.

C – Assistance is defined as military, economic, intelligence, diplomatic, and all other forms of aid the signatories are able to provide.

D – Signatories shall have the option, but not the obligation, to engage in offensive warfare alongside other signatories or to aid those signatories in ways economic or otherwise.

E – Notice of offensive military action by any signatory must be given to other signatories no less than 72 hours prior to the commencement of hostilities. This time period will be used for the consideration of whether to undertake supportive offensive action.

F – Failure of a signatory to notify the other signatories of offensive military action may lead to a vote for the removal of that signatory from this pact.

G – Signatories shall not engage in offensive military action against any alliance which a fellow signatory is obligated by treaty to defend.

[Kryievla]

Didn't the Mobius Accords require a DEFENSIVE treaty, not just any treaty, to make you an invalid target?

I believe the wording was something to the effect of "obligated to defend"

Hmm, I think you are right. I suppose tC could have gone around rolling it's members treaty partners. That does tend to make for a pretty short-lived bloc though

[SyndicatedINC]

Again, people from TPF stated that they planted the clause in there for them to use themselves. PC just used it first.

Who in TPF stated this, when, and where? Citations please or cease making up lies?

Edited July 28, 2009 by SyndicatedINC

[crazymatty]

At this point, it is the citizens of TPF who are speaking, not just the leaders. The leaders are just the voice of TPF.

Regrettably if that IS the will of the people we shall see you on the battlefield. No amount of text on the OWF will change your minds I guess, and it certainly won't change ours.

Good luck sir.

[Bob Janova]

Didn't the Mobius Accords require a DEFENSIVE treaty, not just any treaty, to make you an invalid target?

Legally, yes. But TPF would have lobbied strongly against an attack without a very good reason.

[Kilkenny]

I still see mhawk and kilkenny and a whole host of others that I know for fact wanted PC dead just as much as slayer did, in TPF.

Nice try though.

MHawk, no.

Me yes.

But Mhawk calls the shots, i just make sure they land where intended. And that didn't mean that the feelings of the rest of the alliance were not considered. My feelings were personnal only.

But there were quite a few who didn't, enough that Mhawk wanted to make things better between us.

edit: Clarity

Edited July 28, 2009 by Kilkenny

[astronaut jones]

MHawk, no.

Me yes.

But Mhawk calls the shots, i just make sure they land where intended. And that didn't mean that the feelings of the rest of the alliance were not considered. My feelings were personnal only.

But there were quite a few who didn't, enough that Mhawk wanted to make things better between us.

edit: Clarity

I believe you're forgetting that mhawk talked to me when I first returned, looking for stuff to pin on PC and twisted in general for a "legitimate" reason to roll them. Something about "recruiting"

oh yeah, but of course, mhawk didn't want to roll them. Yet those conversations did happen, but no, no, they weren't because he wanted them dead, far from it, they were because he wanted to throw them a tea party because they were such awesome recruiters in his mind.

[toto]

I believe you're forgetting that mhawk talked to me when I first returned, looking for stuff to pin on PC and twisted in general for a "legitimate" reason to roll them. Something about "recruiting"

oh yeah, but of course, mhawk didn't want to roll them. Yet those conversations did happen, but no, no, they weren't because he wanted them dead, far from it, they were because he wanted to throw them a tea party because they were such awesome recruiters in his mind.

Because, you know, an avid hater of TPF is the best person to turn to when TPF wants help defaming PC.

[BamaBuc]

I believe you're forgetting that mhawk talked to me when I first returned, looking for stuff to pin on PC and twisted in general for a "legitimate" reason to roll them. Something about "recruiting"

oh yeah, but of course, mhawk didn't want to roll them. Yet those conversations did happen, but no, no, they weren't because he wanted them dead, far from it, they were because he wanted to throw them a tea party because they were such awesome recruiters in his mind.

If he had suspicions that PC was recruiting from his alliance, of course he should ask around. But it would seem that he didn't find proof, so rather than acting rashly on unproven suspicions, he chose not to attack PC. Sounds pretty sensible to me.

-Bama

[JBone]

Which is why most of us in PC were so paranoid of TPF. The constant threat that you could just use your word and no proof was enough to make the common member very wary and eager to see that threat eliminated. Forgive us for ridding our world from the threat of a flimsy CB. I doubt that our alliances will ever trust each other but the blame can not be laid solely on our door step when you admit flimsy CBs were the order of the day. Ending a NAP on a technicality with an alliance who admits to using flimsy reasons for war seems fully justified to this nation.

My point was, yes we could have used just about anything as a CB and most of the world at large, and more specifically tC would have supported us fully.

WE DIDN'T.......because many of our membership "made their bones" with the likes of green, CTB, pooks, Twist, Trig, Syrik, Vel, Boogey, TopiaSr...and so on. Despite what you see now, we all were at one point in time pretty tight.

I was in daily contact with Twist at this time and he had my word that I would do everything in my power to not allow Slayer to go off on his crusade. My position as MoD and soon to be Evil Overlord apparently held enough sway. I had supported Slayer twice through questionable wars and was not about to allow that to happen again, certainly not against those who I considered brothers not so long ago.

We were not the bogeyman you were led to believe.

You might want to reread the post you quoted.

In it, the guy said his alliance could have used the reason they had to attack you without any PR fallout, and didn't.

This is the exact opposite of what you say he says.

Thank you.

I believe you're forgetting that mhawk talked to me when I first returned, looking for stuff to pin on PC and twisted in general for a "legitimate" reason to roll them. Something about "recruiting"

oh yeah, but of course, mhawk didn't want to roll them. Yet those conversations did happen, but no, no, they weren't because he wanted them dead, far from it, they were because he wanted to throw them a tea party because they were such awesome recruiters in his mind.

Yes, initially when mhawk took over I'm sure it was put in his ear by our esteemed founder that rolling PC was priority #1. What did mhawk do? He looked around, asked some questions and acted like any prudent leader would.....he diffused the situation by signing the NAP.

Regardless of what you or anyone else says...... or heard through the rumor mill.....or just know cause you know.......TPFs actions toward PC tell the story, not your petty paranoia and frothy vitriol.

EDIT to add: Toto, send me sekrit aid.

Edited July 28, 2009 by JBone

[Kilkenny]

petty paranoia and frothy vitriol.

Wow, such language from you JBone. I would have bet money you would never use the words frothy vitriol.

glad I didn't.

[Delta1212]

You know what's funny? FAN refused to agree to the terms set by NPO after VietFAN if I am correctly remembering that whole debacle.

You aren't. FAN agreed to terms and 1V redeclared on FAN a week before they ran out ignoring the clause in the terms they wrote that stipulated dealing with violations on an individual rather than alliancewide basis. No new terms were ever offered until after this past war broke out.

[RustyNail]

This thread really is serving no purpose other than more cyclical arguing. Karma alliances have a right to present terms as they see fit and TPF has a right to reject said terms. Neither party is under any obligation to do anything further. There is a clear winner (in-game implications that is) whichever way this goes and it is not TPF. Get busy living, or get busy dying. Those are really the only options at this point.

but hey...i'm irrelevant, what do I know?

[astronaut jones]

Because, you know, an avid hater of TPF is the best person to turn to when TPF wants help defaming PC.

who said he was turning to me? and I hadn't ramped up my tpf hate then.

[astronaut jones]

My point was, yes we could have used just about anything as a CB and most of the world at large, and more specifically tC would have supported us fully.

WE DIDN'T.......because many of our membership "made their bones" with the likes of green, CTB, pooks, Twist, Trig, Syrik, Vel, Boogey, TopiaSr...and so on. Despite what you see now, we all were at one point in time pretty tight.

I was in daily contact with Twist at this time and he had my word that I would do everything in my power to not allow Slayer to go off on his crusade. My position as MoD and soon to be Evil Overlord apparently held enough sway. I had supported Slayer twice through questionable wars and was not about to allow that to happen again, certainly not against those who I considered brothers not so long ago.

We were not the bogeyman you were led to believe.

Thank you.

Yes, initially when mhawk took over I'm sure it was put in his ear by our esteemed founder that rolling PC was priority #1. What did mhawk do? He looked around, asked some questions and acted like any prudent leader would.....he diffused the situation by signing the NAP.

Regardless of what you or anyone else says...... or heard through the rumor mill.....or just know cause you know.......TPFs actions toward PC tell the story, not your petty paranoia and frothy vitriol.

EDIT to add: Toto, send me sekrit aid.

Whatever you say, I suppose I just imagined mhawk talking to me about that then. Right.

I think you've gone senile. It's about time you joined slayer and tbb in the retirement home for members of PB who people no longer give a damn about.

[BamaBuc]

Whatever you say, I suppose I just imagined mhawk talking to me about that then. Right.

I think you've gone senile. It's about time you joined slayer and tbb in the retirement home for members of PB who people no longer give a damn about.

Think you missed this:

If he had suspicions that PC was recruiting from his alliance, of course he should ask around. But it would seem that he didn't find proof, so rather than acting rashly on unproven suspicions, he chose not to attack PC. Sounds pretty sensible to me.

-Bama

Also, who exactly appointed you to speak for "people"?

-Bama

[astronaut jones]

Think you missed this:

Also, who exactly appointed you to speak for "people"?

-Bama

The same people who appointed you and the likes of Heinousone to speak on behalf of "people".

[Big Z]

Couple things here:

1) I completely understand where TPF is coming from here. It's a terrible situation to be in and surrendering to people you hate sucks. Some of the things that happened during this theater probably reinforced the bad blood. In fact, I've been in your shoes before. I don't blame you for choosing your current course of action, I really don't. However, that being said...

2) I'm sure PC could really care less which option you take. Door number 1 leads to them watching their hated foe surrender and pay reparations. Door number 2 leads to them getting to beat up said foe forever. I think either way, they're pretty pleased with the outcome. However, only one of those outcomes leads to TPF surviving.

Think about it. Ultimately it's your choice but whatever you choose, make sure you at least have no regrets when you set it in stone.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

Couple things here:

1) I completely understand where TPF is coming from here. It's a terrible situation to be in and surrendering to people you hate sucks. Some of the things that happened during this theater probably reinforced the bad blood. In fact, I've been in your shoes before. I don't blame you for choosing your current course of action, I really don't. However, that being said...

2) I'm sure PC could really care less which option you take. Door number 1 leads to them watching their hated foe surrender and pay reparations. Door number 2 leads to them getting to beat up said foe forever. I think either way, they're pretty pleased with the outcome. However, only one of those outcomes leads to TPF surviving.

Think about it. Ultimately it's your choice but whatever you choose, make sure you at least have no regrets when you set it in stone.

to be entirely honest, nothing is forever. FARK was going to be at war forever, FAN was going to be at war forever. If TPF chooses to fight forever, one of a couple things are likely to happen, 1) they bleed members till they disband. I don't think this is likely because it would have already likely happened by now. 2) those fighting TPF including PC get involved in another conflict and they will no long wish to waste their resources on TPF. I think this is the likely outcome as history has shown this does infact happen.

Im sure other things can happen as well (totalphoenixstan!)... but it wont be war till bob explodes.

[Big Z]

to be entirely honest, nothing is forever. FARK was going to be at war forever, FAN was going to be at war forever. If TPF chooses to fight forever, one of a couple things are likely to happen, 1) they bleed members till they disband. I don't think this is likely because it would have already likely happened by now. 2) those fighting TPF including PC get involved in another conflict and they will no long wish to waste their resources on TPF. I think this is the likely outcome as history has shown this does infact happen.

Im sure other things can happen as well (totalphoenixstan!)... but it wont be war till bob explodes.

Fair enough. However, it'll be quite a while before it ends more than likely and one will have to waste significant time/resources keeping this up, more on TPF's end than the coalition assembled. The question is, "Is it worth it?". If TPF feels that it is, well, then this will be an interesting scenario.

[Felix von Agnu]

Fair enough. However, it'll be quite a while before it ends more than likely and one will have to waste significant time/resources keeping this up, more on TPF's end than the coalition assembled. The question is, "Is it worth it?". If TPF feels that it is, well, then this will be an interesting scenario.

I'm sure TPF feels it is worth it. If someone disagrees, they are free to leave and rebuild. Honestly though, I think if TPF were to take the reps, and the more expedient of the two ways you mentioned out of the war, they would one day be back to take back that pound of flesh PC is asking. I'm surprised PC doesn't realize this, and just drop the request and end it now.

[Big Z]

I'm sure TPF feels it is worth it. If someone disagrees, they are free to leave and rebuild. Honestly though, I think if TPF were to take the reps, and the more expedient of the two ways you mentioned out of the war, they would one day be back to take back that pound of flesh PC is asking. I'm surprised PC doesn't realize this, and just drop the request and end it now.

You're also assuming that dropping the reps would make things better again. As some of the responses in this thread indicated, internal feelings in TPF about PC are pretty...heated so to speak (at least that's the feeling I get). Speaking from PC's pov, what's to say TPF wouldn't want to get their pound of flesh later on anyway? This war didn't exactly improve on what they had before.

But, I'm also not a mind reader and just speculating, so don't take my words as anything more than what they are.

[Felix von Agnu]

You're also assuming that dropping the reps would make things better again. As some of the responses in this thread indicated, internal feelings in TPF about PC are pretty...heated so to speak (at least that's the feeling I get). Speaking from PC's pov, what's to say TPF wouldn't want to get their pound of flesh later on anyway? This war didn't exactly improve on what they had before.

But, I'm also not a mind reader and just speculating, so don't take my words as anything more than what they are.

From my perspective, a lot of the current heat was from them attacking us despite the NAP (it was viewed in TPF as them breaking a treaty to hit us). As OBM said, they don't want to pay a cent to a foe they view as dishonorable. If PC were to take this chance and let them go, it should diffuse hatred on the TPF end. I mean, its hard to be angry at someone who just gives you peace. Mhawk was trying to put the past where it belongs, the past. I feel if PC showed a similar sentiment, the hatred would die down.

Sure there is a chance the cycle will continue, but I feel there is a greater chance it won't.