Andrewbw Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Voted tonight, because that's yesterday. You stay classy, Sparta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyman Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 You were allied to that government, and majority of TPF members served under that government, and many were in it. You can't use that defense.You guys watched Slayer crucify alliances for OOC stuff MULTIPLE times and said nothing. But you speak out about THIS? Just be quiet. Honestly it's just so ridiculous. So, you want us to sit down and let them take it? You want us to be what we were two years ago? Or would you rather we sit at the peanut gallery, removed from all politics, reforming in the way that only you envision it? Change has not happened unless I approved of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Really? Because that makes you the biggest hypocrite ever. Every time you've ever criticized how the NPO has "punished" other alliances for wrongs, real or percieved, you've been doing exactly what Bama's doing. A crime was committed against Athens, I am not going to ask Bama what he thinks we should do about it, I never told NPO what to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Really? Because that makes you the biggest hypocrite ever. Every time you've ever criticized how the NPO has "punished" other alliances for wrongs, real or percieved, you've been doing exactly what Bama's doing. See, these people keep on proving me right. They are using the same old nonsense and living in the same old mindset that the NPO did. Same justifications, same everything. Just a new name and a new face, other than that, same old, same old. Guess power kind of does this to people, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 So, you want us to sit down and let them take it? You want us to be what we were two years ago? Or would you rather we sit at the peanut gallery, removed from all politics, reforming in the way that only you envision it?Change has not happened unless I approved of it! You sat and said nothing when you were the ones attacking people, why do you speak against it now? Answer that and maybe we'll get somewhere here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyman Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) You sat and said nothing when you were the ones attacking people, why do you speak against it now? Answer that and maybe we'll get somewhere here. We sat and said nothing because we were committing the wrong. We were doing the stupid !@#$%^&*. We have already made the mistake. We've paid for it, with over a month of bitter war, and likely some harsh terms to come. We don't need anybody else going through the same thing. Learn from The Phoenix Federation's mistakes. Edited July 17, 2009 by Heyman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 See, these people keep on proving me right. They are using the same old nonsense and living in the same old mindset that the NPO did. Same justifications, same everything. Just a new name and a new face, other than that, same old, same old. Guess power kind of does this to people, eh? How is Karma the same as the Hegemon? Where are the PZI's? Where are the wars for OOC reasons? Where is the destruction of communities and forced disbandments? (Use your "You can't force anyone to disband" defense here. I'll counter with my "They didn't offer them terms and they didn't want to continue the war" offense.) Where is Karma attacking people's nations for speaking out? Where are the Viceroy's? Where are the 2 year long wars? Find me those, and maybe we'll compare the two. Until then, enjoy the moral high ground, Karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodemofi-NPO Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 A crime was committed against Athens, I am not going to ask Bama what he thinks we should do about it, I never told NPO what to do. By that justification it's none of the business of the rest of CN for what happened to GATO. After all, that crime was committed against Athens. Same with the terms imposed on MK, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're trying to say that it's ok for you to criticize how NPO punishes other alliance, but it's not ok for anyone to do the same to you? Hypocrisy at its finest, I dearly hope this isn't what we fought the Karma War for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 How is Karma the same as the Hegemon?Where are the PZI's? Where are the wars for OOC reasons? Where is the destruction of communities and forced disbandments? (Use your "You can't force anyone to disband" defense here. I'll counter with my "They didn't offer them terms and they didn't want to continue the war" offense.) Where is Karma attacking people's nations for speaking out? Where are the Viceroy's? Where are the 2 year long wars? Find me those, and maybe we'll compare the two. Until then, enjoy the moral high ground, Karma. Well, the hypocrisy and double standards are openly used, plus we've already seen overly harsh terms in what was given to Echelon, and we are seeing the start of a long war in the NPO (the objective has already been accomplished, so anything more is just being petty). As for the rest, give Karma time. Not even the NPO became a monster overnight. They had years to make the transformation, but seeing as how much of Karma was cozy with NPO for so long, I think it should only take them a few months tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehChron Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 That's a good jab at Sparta, but delightfully ignorant.It really has nothing to do with Sparta flexing muscles, or backing down. Define "delightfully". Although I freely admit that I dont know what the situation is, the teasing going on here is grating. Mhawk, just say what happened, already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 You sat and said nothing when you were the ones attacking people, why do you speak against it now? Answer that and maybe we'll get somewhere here. I'd say we got ours, wouldn't you? We paid the price for our complicity. So why is it that we're never allowed to speak out? If our crime was NOT speaking out, shouldn't we be trying to do the opposite? -Bama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 We sat and said nothing because we were committing the wrong. We were doing the stupid !@#$%^&*. We have already made the mistake. We've paid for it, with over a month of bitter war, and likely some harsh terms to come.We don't need anybody else going through the same thing. Learn from The Phoenix Federation's mistakes. I like this stance. Admitting you were wrong is the first step to recovery. Now, if only Pacifica could embrace this. Well, the hypocrisy and double standards are openly used, plus we've already seen overly harsh terms in what was given to Echelon, and we are seeing the start of a long war in the NPO (the objective has already been accomplished, so anything more is just being petty). As for the rest, give Karma time. Not even the NPO became a monster overnight. They had years to make the transformation, but seeing as how much of Karma was cozy with NPO for so long, I think it should only take them a few months tops. The terms given to Echelon were harsh, but very lenient when you look at some terms of the past. As for everything else you said, I guess we'll have to see. Until that time, you cannot call Karma just as bad. It is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion321 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Define "delightfully". Although I freely admit that I dont know what the situation is, the teasing going on here is grating.Mhawk, just say what happened, already. If you didn't even know what was going on, why did you feel it was appropriate to comment on the alleged asshattery of Sparta. Blindly talking about our so called domineering and weight-throwing is quite pointless and...well..."ignorant"...wouldn't you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 By that justification it's none of the business of the rest of CN for what happened to GATO. After all, that crime was committed against Athens. Same with the terms imposed on MK, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're trying to say that it's ok for you to criticize how NPO punishes other alliance, but it's not ok for anyone to do the same to you? Hypocrisy at its finest, I dearly hope this isn't what we fought the Karma War for. What happened to GATO, MK, Athens, and everyone else wronged by Hegemony is far far worse then what Athens proposed. I am not Athens government and I am speaking on my own behalf, where I am not a hypocrite. As far as Athens is concerned, I believe they proposed a cycle of non-nuclear war and then white peace. Wow, Athens, shame. I would really like to know how that makes Athens as bad as the Hegemony or a tyrant, defending ones own sovereignty is a noble cause in my own opinion. I know that's terrible opsec, but the kittens out of the bag already, and you people are making me angry with your sheer stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Define "delightfully". Although I freely admit that I dont know what the situation is, the teasing going on here is grating.Mhawk, just say what happened, already. Delightfully: It brought a smile to Cole Hamels face. It'll all come out in due time. I guess this is a time when the world needs a Schattenmann. I'd say we got ours, wouldn't you? We paid the price for our complicity. So why is it that we're never allowed to speak out? If our crime was NOT speaking out, shouldn't we be trying to do the opposite?-Bama I suppose you did get yours. My only problem is, that you are only speaking out because you got yours and you are now on the bottom. Would you still be beating down small alliances if you were on top or would you have simply changed overnight? However, what you are speaking out against, is not an injustice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyman Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I suppose you did get yours. My only problem is, that you are only speaking out because you got yours and you are now on the bottom. Would you still be beating down small alliances if you were on top or would you have simply changed overnight? If you mean a month or two when you say "overnight," then yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesca Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 There are a few things I would very much like to know: - Like everyone else, what the hell is going on? - What are mhawk's motivations for giving us advanced warning? (on the CNF ffs) - Will this incident affect the current war? I suppose all will be revealed in due course, but this is painful. I can't even ask my contacts as I don't know who I should be asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehChron Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 The terms given to Echelon were harsh, but very lenient when you look at some terms of the past. As for everything else you said, I guess we'll have to see. Until that time, you cannot call Karma just as bad. It is ridiculous. How does that not make them hypocrites? Just asking. As for Hyperion, learn to read who the post is directed at. I was annoyed with mhawk making a pointless poll and dancing around some kind of backroom nonsense. That he named Sparta as an involved party clearly should serve as a sufficient reason to think that he was directing this thread at them? Reading Comprehension is a beautiful thing, don't you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 The terms given to Echelon were harsh, but very lenient when you look at some terms of the past. So, "at least its not as bad as what the NPO did" is the new justification for, well, everything. Forgive me if that doesn't cut if for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodemofi-NPO Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 What happened to GATO, MK, Athens, and everyone else wronged by Hegemony is far far worse then what Athens proposed.I am not Athens government and I am speaking on my own behalf, where I am not a hypocrite. As far as Athens is concerned, I believe they proposed a cycle of non-nuclear war and then white peace. Wow, Athens, shame. I would really like to know how that makes Athens as bad as the Hegemony or a tyrant, defending ones own sovereignty is a noble cause in my own opinion. I know that's terrible opsec, but the kittens out of the bag already, and you people are making me angry with your sheer stupidity. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you were as bad as the Hegemony, and until you start doing some of the things they did, I won't. But just because what the NPO did was worse really doesn't change the fact that you're being a hypocrite at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Diorno Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you were as bad as the Hegemony, and until you start doing some of the things they did, I won't. But just because what the NPO did was worse really doesn't change the fact that you're being a hypocrite at all. How is Athens being hypocritical? and how am I being hypocritical? If what Athens is doing, is something entirely different to what the hegemony was doing, then that's not hypocrisy. They are two different things. EDIT: added what clarity i could. Edited July 17, 2009 by jack diorno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) I suppose you did get yours. My only problem is, that you are only speaking out because you got yours and you are now on the bottom. Would you still be beating down small alliances if you were on top or would you have simply changed overnight?However, what you are speaking out against, is not an injustice. I won't sugar-coat this. If not for this beatdown, I'd probably still be rationalizing half the wrongs I saw and just staying quiet about the other half. This war really brought me down to earth. No, I would not have changed overnight. Though it's not my values that have changed, merely my outlook. I still hold the same things as wrong, but I'm done keeping quiet or rationalizing them (which, no offense, you seem to be doing yourself... I'll get to that in a second). I'm not sure how much of the story you've gotten, but one guy sending an ambiguous message (it's unclear if it was meant as a diplomatic invite or a recruitment attempt) does not make a valid CB in my book. Even if he did mean it that way, it's a bad CB. I'm strongly against poaching, but no harm was even done in this case. I think it's wrong to roll the whole alliance (or even the one guy) for that. At the most just make them apologize. Now, earlier in the thread you said something along the lines of "what injustices have been done are nothing compared to those of the Hegemony. No EZI, no eternal war, no viceroys, etc." I think you're doing exactly what I did... Rationalizing it by saying "it's not as bad as what someone else did", "it could have been worse", "I've seen worse", etc. I'm not saying that "Karma is the new Hegemony", just that "the Hegemony did worse" isn't an excuse for the Echelon terms or for this potential war. -Bama Edited July 17, 2009 by BamaBuc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shodemofi-NPO Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 How is Athens being hypocritical, and how am I being hypocritical then? If what Athens is doing something entirely different to the hegemony then that's not hypocrisy. It's something entirely different. No, I'm not complaining about how you plan on punishing whoever it is that wronged you, that has no bearing. What I'm pointing out is that you tried to tell someone they can't judge how your alliance carries out it's punishment when you've been all to happy to pass judgements on how the NPO carries out their punishments. That's why I'm calling you a hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Now, earlier in the thread you said something along the lines of "what injustices have been done are nothing compared to those of the Hegemony. No EZI, no eternal war, no viceroys, etc." I think you're doing exactly what I did... Rationalizing it by saying "it's not as bad as what someone else did", "it could have been worse", "I've seen worse", etc. I'm not saying that "Karma is the new Hegemony", just that "the Hegemony did worse" isn't an excuse for the Echelon terms or for this potential war.-Bama Exactly what I have been saying. An injustice is an injustice regardless of who is committing it, and the fact it is not as bad as certain other atrocities does not make it any less unjust. Thus I will not stand for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycurgus Rex Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 So I was wondering, how long do you think it will take for the new Spartan / Athens overlords to stretch their legs? I know back in my day they were really hurt TPF stopped them curbstomping a small alliance. Now that we're out of the way, how long until they get back up to their old ways? Who will support them? When the chips are down, its amazing to watch the band change its tune.....Sparta and Athens..evil overlords? Is that what you are trying to say? Evil overlords like NPO, TPF and the rest were like..? Now I see the funny side Joke topic I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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