I have a dream.

[HeinousOne]

Riiight.

So if I'm to take you at face value, you haven't even been here for 5 months. If that's the case, you should sit down and shut up. Only an imbecile would get involved in an argument when he's completely ignorant of the issues involved.

You think those occurances that you listed were only five months ago? Are you serious?

One might honestly question your state of mind at this point. You really do have alot of hate for the NPO don't you?

[LiquidMercury]

Riiight.

So if I'm to take you at face value, you haven't even been here for 5 months. If that's the case, you should sit down and shut up. Only an imbecile would get involved in an argument when he's completely ignorant of the issues involved.

Sadly this is CN, everyone does it. HeinousOne is not one of the ignorant though and completely understands the situation just fine to discuss it, argue it, etc.

[Azhrarn]

You think those occurances that you listed were only five months ago? Are you serious?

One might honestly question your state of mind at this point. You really do have alot of hate for the NPO don't you?

Divide 141 days by 30 days. How many months is that? Now are you just playing dumb, or are you really this dumb?

Sadly this is CN, everyone does it. HeinousOne is not one of the ignorant though and completely understands the situation just fine to discuss it, argue it, etc.

If you'll read between the lines, I made it pretty clear I don't believe he's only been around for 4 months. However, he can't have it both ways. If he refuses to provide any evidence of prior criticism of the NPO on the grounds that he's only been around for 4 months, then I refuse to discuss the issue of reparations with him any longer, as a 4 month old nation has no right to speak on such matters - at least not with any credibility.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[HeinousOne]

Divide 141 days by 30 days. How many months is that? Now are you just playing dumb, or are you really this dumb?

Nation Created: 7/10/2008 10:49:58 AM (366 days old)

Alliance Seniority: 2/20/2009 5:36:17 PM (141 Days)

Seriously guy, get a grip on yourself. When you have returned in a semi-rational mindstate we can pick this up again.

[Azhrarn]

Nation Created: 7/10/2008 10:49:58 AM (366 days old)

Alliance Seniority: 2/20/2009 5:36:17 PM (141 Days)

Seriously guy, get a grip on yourself. When you have returned in a semi-rational mindstate we can pick this up again.

So you've actually been around for one year? That's great, because it means your excuse ("Still waiting for you to realize when I came into this world.") doesn't apply to the GGA-Hyperion War, one of the worst injustices ever seen on Planet Bob. So please link me to all the impassioned posts you made protesting that war.

And if you can't, then please explain to me why you're crying an ocean over the NPO when you didn't even shed one tear for Hyperion?

Edited July 11, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Yggdrazil]

So you've actually been around for one year? That's great, because it means your excuse ("Still waiting for you to realize when I came into this world.") doesn't apply to the GGA-Hyperion War, one of the worst injustices ever seen on Planet Bob. So please link me to all the impassioned posts you made protesting that war.

I would also like to see links before the war to all your protests when you protested the actions of the hegemony.From your accusations I expect to see a bandwidth killing list.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Yggdrazil

[TehChron]

I'm still waiting for you to link me to the posts you made criticizing the NPO when they decided to force GATO nations out of peace mode, warred the GPA, perma-warred FAN, imposed a Viceroy on Legion...

You're really cute, making an ad hominem attack against me to accuse me of making an ad hominem attack against HeinousOne.

Anyway, I don't hate the NPO. I just want them to embrace the passion that is within them.

Leave us out of this.

Im all for embracing one's passions, but letting them control you, rather than using them, is a sign of weakness.

However, I more or less agree with Heinous' arguments, and frankly, I just don't see any kind of logic behind your nearly fanatical attacks on him, and dismissals of his arguments. You're from GR, right?

If this is about the NAAC, and revenge, and etc, then NAAC is kind of one of the alliances with the least right to complain about the NPO's tyranny, as they were picking fights (and losing them) with the NPO since long before the alliance became the bastion of evil and treachery it has become...And back when it was something to be afraid of on it's own.

If it's not, then frankly, I dont see what makes you any more qualified than HeinousOne to share his opinion on a term meant to cripple an alliance.

Which he (and I) think no one deserves. The thing about standards, is that they apply to everything. Either its not okay for anyone, or it's allowed. Harsh terms are something a lot of folks were hoping would be one of the greatest casualties of this war...I guess its wrong to complain about being mislead like that?

[neneko]

Azhrarn, I'm fairly sure you completely missed the point I was trying to make. There's no need to get all defensive since I'm not arguing against you.

edit: To simplify a bit since I have a feeling more people than you have trouble reading whole posts.

If someone punch you in the face and you want to punch them back that is not because you had a moral appiffany when being hit in the face and realised that hitting people in the face is morally wrong. You want to hit them back because they !@#$@#$ punched you in the face.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's just how things work.

Edited July 12, 2009 by neneko

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

can this thread die now?

[HeinousOne]

can this thread die now?

It will die soon enough.

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

It will die soon enough.

cool

kinda gets boring reading posts which are to the same effect over and over.....

Edited July 12, 2009 by Sup4l33t3ki11a

[TehChron]

It will die soon enough.

Someone needs to get Sparta in here, then. To expedite the process.

[HeinousOne]

Someone needs to get Sparta in here, then. To expedite the process.

They are busy.

[TehChron]

They are busy.

Seriously?

What could be more important than making specious arguments and random tangents against Frostbite Members?

[John Michaels]

Seriously?

What could be more important than making specious arguments and random tangents against Frostbite Members?

In that case I'll offer my services.

Chron I hate you.

Edited July 12, 2009 by John Michaels

[TehChron]

In that case I'll offer my services.

Chron I hate you.

You didn't say why.

Therefore you are fake debating and thus I shall make a 5000 word statement outlining why I think you are but not really targetting you specifically.

It's something I think Francesca would appreciate.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Chron

[Owned-You]

You didn't say why.

Therefore you are fake debating and thus I shall make a 5000 word statement outlining why I think you are but not really targetting you specifically.

It's something I think Francesca would appreciate.

Chron, I hate you because you have the Shredda from TNMT in your avatar all Sith looking...it killed my love for him. Furthermore, you have an armored gauntlet that has done horrendous things to noobs and veterens alike...it's crushed countless lives and continues to be an endless fountain of grief for many. Lastly, you never took my job in Internal Affairs as I believed you should have and due to that aggregious mistake on your part that I hate your soul...and you no longer show up on IRC.

Oh and plus your in that ugly bloc known as Frostbite that's going to take over the world from what I hear...

[Azhrarn]

Leave us out of this.

Im all for embracing one's passions, but letting them control you, rather than using them, is a sign of weakness.

However, I more or less agree with Heinous' arguments, and frankly, I just don't see any kind of logic behind your nearly fanatical attacks on him, and dismissals of his arguments. You're from GR, right?

Which he (and I) think no one deserves. The thing about standards, is that they apply to everything. Either its not okay for anyone, or it's allowed. Harsh terms are something a lot of folks were hoping would be one of the greatest casualties of this war...I guess its wrong to complain about being mislead like that?

Leave you out of this? Gosh, you guys are hilarious. Remember this and especially this?

It has come to my attention that there are members of the Rebelling Brown Colony who are not embracing the passion that is within their souls.

And what is that we see above this quote? That wouldn't be the Sith philosophy now would it? I've got news for you buddy. Ivan and Dilber were quoting the Sith philosophy long before the NSO was even born.

Here's something else that you don't understand - credibility. Let me spell this out for you so simply that even a 1st grader could understand.

It's amazing how many people suddenly developed a concern with fairness and standards and "harsh" terms after the NPO was beaten down. The obvious question is, is this concern genuine, or are they just spouting some !@#$%^&* line because it makes good propaganda? In the case of someone like HeiniousOne, it's obviously the latter. If you never had a word to say against the NPO when they were busy imposing harsh terms left and right, but suddenly are all over the forums on the one occasion that the NPO gets their just deserts, you have a credibility problem.

But that's not the only reason you and he have credibility problems. Your entire argument is dishonest, to the extent that it smells worse than rotten fish. And that obvious dishonesty also makes it difficult to believe anything you say.

You conveniently ignore the issues of context, and justice, and standards, at the same time that you're giving them lip service. In order to determine whether standards are harsh or not, you have to consider why they're being imposed. For example, having an alliance pay 10,000 tech when they were attacked on a false CB would rightfully be considered a harsh term. However, making an alliance pay 10,000 tech because they used a false CB to attack another alliance would actually be justice - another concept which you seem to have trouble grasping.

Treating everyone the same is only just when everyone behaves the same, or shares the same state. Example: If you have two employees, one of whom always shows up for work on time, never causes problems, and always finishes his tasks on time, while the other is always late, always getting into fights, and always stealing other people's work, giving them both raises would not be just. On the contrary, giving the good employee a raise, while firing the bad employee would be just. Guess which employee the NPO would be?

And harsh terms have already been a casualty of this war, because most alliances involved got off with slaps on the wrist, so the facts are against you. The exceptions (like the NPO) prove the rule. And even in the case of the NPO, the terms they've received are better than they deserve. So once again, we see that harsh terms have already been a casualty.

If the NPO can be crippled to the extent that they will never again be able to dictate matters on Planet Bob, that will be a giant step forward towards creating a world in which all alliances are free to go to war without having to worry that one loss on the battlefield will mean being put under unfair terms for years, losing control of their alliance, or being driven from Planet Bob altogether.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Azhrarn

[ChairmanHal]

Yeah, no way NPO ever changes the way it is. A very clearly worded admission of defeat is something which I believe NPO would probably agree to at this point. I of course am not on speaking terms with any of them but I'm not sure how they could deny it at this point.

Yeah, I think they get it now. Here's the point where they are told, "Now you know what it feels like, next time you want to act like jerks how about you remember this moment and be sporting?"

I've been a victim of NPO's aggression, and their duplicitous dealings with others. I've lost quite a bit due to them, I dare say more than most people. Here I sit advocating a fair deal for them that they'd never have (and never did) offer me. I'm doing so because I'm a better human being than they are. I refuse to wallow in equality with scum such as them. Reciprocity means I'd be on their level and I'm not.

I'd like to think most of you are better than they are too. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Well stated. However, if things are as you say, then you also accidentally made the case for NPO to be imprisoned or destroyed. They will not change. They have no desire to change. They are therefore a danger to Planet Bob society and if ever released into it will go back to the same behavior as before. It is therefore incumbent on society to ensure that it does not happen. That doesn't make society as a whole "evil" or lower it to some new depth by any means.

I will say this however. It's been 3 months more or less and no conditional terms have been agreed upon. Frankly, the only conditions that NPO should have ever been offered was unconditional surrender. Karma could then have dictated terms that were just and the world would have loved them.

Instead we have the Planet Bob equivalent of the Korean War. A long, drawn-out war of attrition that saw delegates to the peace conference arguing over the height of flagpoles while good men died.

End the war not because NPO deserves to live. End it because individual nations should be allowed the opportunity to know peace again.

[Sup4l33t3ki11a]

You didn't say why.

Therefore you are fake debating and thus I shall make a 5000 word statement outlining why I think you are but not really targetting you specifically.

It's something I think Francesca would appreciate.

EXACTLY!

[John Michaels]

You didn't say why.

Therefore you are fake debating and thus I shall make a 5000 word statement outlining why I think you are but not really targetting you specifically.

It's something I think Francesca would appreciate.

I shall, in response, write an enormous wall of text calculating how much you are in fact a prick and resemble the picture below:

I shall then post it in my signature and whenever someone tries to argue that you're a cool guy, I will say "Ahem" refer to my post, and tell everyone that nobody has responded to my post. When someone does, I will either waffle about and take quotes out of context or develop a conveniently severe case of carpal tunnel syndrome when that won't get me out of a debate I can't win.

I think Cortath would appreciate it.

EDIT: Then I will develop early-onset Alzheimers and respond in a similar fashion in another topic.

Edited July 12, 2009 by John Michaels

[Azhrarn]

can this thread die now?

It can die after HeinousOne finally answers my questions here.

[Azaghul]

We have offered more than that.

In terms of our banks with $1 billion war-chests (as Karma keeps going on about), this is not the issue. The issue is that they can only send 15 million every 10 days. You can point to our banks with their war-chests as proof of how easy it would be to pay, but it would take 2 years at 100% efficiency for one of those nations to send said war chest, and if it took that long we would have violated the minimum monthly requirement and you would have redeclared war on us as a result. So they sound impressive, but it doesn't do us much good I'm afraid.

18mill, 300 tech actually. And more importantly, than can aid other nations to quickly get them into a position to also bank and/or aid other nations to farm out tech. A bank is useful for more than just directly paying reps if you think creatively at all.

[Lord of Destruction]

-entire post cut-

Azhrarn, I like you, but you're being a bit of a zealot. You're making logical fallacies all over the place, especially in your comments regarding credibility. I don't mean to burst your bubble, but not everything happens openly on Bob. Not everyone comes to the open forums and publicly makes a statement against this or that. Most people actually go directly to the source and talk about it with them. Just because you've not seen them do it doesn't mean they've exactly supported everything else in the past.

As for those vehemently against the current terms, they're right to be so strong about their opinion. This war should not last forever. This war needs to be over. I realize that the Order has done some terrible things to people in the past, and may possibly even do them once they're released from terms eventually, but this war should not be prolonged just because of events that happened so long ago that not even half of the current population of Bob was around for it. By having the terms remain as they are, this war will last forever. The Order has stated that they will not accept terms as they stand. Whether you care or not, unless the NPO front changes the terms, this war will last forever, and I'm sure none of us want to deal with a 650 man alliance constantly berating the entire populace of Bob that they're still at war.

[Azhrarn]

As for those vehemently against the current terms, they're right to be so strong about their opinion. This war should not last forever. This war needs to be over. I realize that the Order has done some terrible things to people in the past, and may possibly even do them once they're released from terms eventually, but this war should not be prolonged just because of events that happened so long ago that not even half of the current population of Bob was around for it. By having the terms remain as they are, this war will last forever. The Order has stated that they will not accept terms as they stand. Whether you care or not, unless the NPO front changes the terms, this war will last forever, and I'm sure none of us want to deal with a 650 man alliance constantly berating the entire populace of Bob that they're still at war.

The NPO doesn't get to decide when this war is over. Neither do they get to decide which terms they deserve. But if they'd prefer eternal war, that's fine by me. If they still believe they have the right to dictate affairs to the rest of Planet Bob, even in defeat, then they obviously haven't been at war long enough.

Edited July 12, 2009 by Azhrarn