Matthew Conrad Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I think we had very different "sides" from the beginning in our analysis, and it sure as heck ended up being pretty spot on. Umm, you mentioned worse case scenario. Worst case had ODN, Polar and TOP going neutral or worse with a bunch of pre-leading departures from tC. Yeah, that would pretty have been the worse case, and I will say that your topline numbers and ratios are not be be discounted. Obviously, we have the benefit of hindsight, I won't deny, but it is not as though there was antyhing in all this conflict that has been a total shocker, and our analysis sure as heck had TOP/MHA going Karma from Day 1. Add up the expectations we had on warchests based on growth rates and time out of war, and it was even uglier. Don't discount our friends in Vox and FAN being warchest drainers... I don't beleive your attempt is to make this appear to be some great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma against fair odds. It is a great military and political achievement by the forces of Karma to have weakened your opponent prior to battle and then to pummel them. You're correct, I don't think anyone has said we've achieved some grand victory with even sides. It's all about pre-war perspective. Many of us are just saying our initial projections weren't the rosy picture hindsight has painted. Anyways, I stand by my statement that NPO didn't enter the war thinking they'd lose, otherwise they wouldn't have sought peace the next day. As for the others, I've already given them the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daverice Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 You're cashing out on this honorable move pretty quick, eh? Be sure to bank some, it's a recession after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycurgus Rex Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If honour comes to these who experience the most hardship then TPF have come late to the class. The rest of us paid for our honour for how long now?..3 years roughly is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsacane Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If honour comes to these who experience the most hardship then TPF have come late to the class. The rest of us paid for our honour for how long now?..3 years roughly is it? Ha! Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If honour comes to these who experience the most hardship then TPF have come late to the class. The rest of us paid for our honour for how long now?..3 years roughly is it? I learn something new every single day here. I didn't even know Sparta had been around for 3 years. And when did Sparta see hardship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathcat Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) I am sorry I have been remiss in my duties as leader of my nation. As a former ZI club member, my need to "recharge" overwhelmed me and I took a long break to get some fishing, bbq'ing and drinking in. *OOC-Got a job and so did my kids * I'm afraid that the fishmongers of Ozekiland were using the lead in pencils to fashion new bullets for the front lines instead of writing me daily update reports On topic.. I want to thank mhawk for this opportunity to surrender but seeing as how we were all here of our own volition and knew what the end result would be (losing) I think we can say we are here to the end of this war. For those of you out there saying "PM losers.. come out and fight.." you would then in the same breath say were were martyrs going down in a blaze of glory.. We aren't going to play into that. We aren't going to go supernova and suddenly start flinging nukes till we burn out. Most, not all, of our nations have seen at least 2 full weeks of war at a min. I went 3 straight wars, fun I might say, before going to zi and then rebuilding to buy nukes. Unfortunately, I have little to no time to dedicate to war and have decided to work towards saving for rebuilding my alliance mates. I seek no "honor" title, I have no need for ribbons, medals, awards... I have my friends and family and I am a TPFer now till the end *was going to let my nation delete until this war broke out* Once our allies are out, we have peace/terms/whatever, I will offer my resources to rebuild us to the best of my abilities. I will leave Bob with a clear conscience in knowing that in my time in TPF and in Elysium, I never once took the low road but instead treated both my "enemies" and friends with as much dignity, respect and "honor" as I would hope they would bestow on me. mhawk has led me well and I owe my time here to his guidance and friendship. I just hope that those of you who would like to remain hostile to TPF for past transgressions remember that the "shoe is on the other foot" and you will long be remembered for your rhetoric but more so your actions. I believe our recent "acta non verba" stance has been more than memorable. I wish our "enemies" and allies luck and best regards in moving on. May we all find our paths and follow our hearts in our future journeys. oo/ mhawk *I am here to the 'end' Thanks to our friends and allies for your continued support. "The Phoenix will be reborn!" EDIT: to better clarify my points Edited June 25, 2009 by deathcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsacane Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 oo/ Deathcat! oo/ BBQ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I am sorry I have been remiss in my duties as leader of my nation. As a former ZI club member, my need to "recharge" overwhelmed me and I took a long break to get some fishing, bbq'ing and drinking in. *OOC-Got a job and so did my kids * I'm afraid that the fishmongers of Ozekiland were using the lead in pencils to fashion new bullets for the front lines instead of writing me daily update reports On topic.. I want to thank mhawk for this opportunity to surrender but seeing as how we were all here of our own volition and knew what the end result would be (losing) I think we can say we are here to the end of this war. For those of you out there saying "PM losers.. come out and fight.." you would then in the same breath say were were martyrs going down in a blaze of glory.. We aren't going to play into that. We aren't going to go supernova and suddenly start flinging nukes till we burn out. Most, not all, of our nations have seen at least 2 full weeks of war at a min. I went 3 straight wars, fun I might say, before going to zi and then rebuilding to buy nukes. Unfortunately, I have little to no time to dedicate to war and have decided to work towards saving for rebuilding my alliance mates. I seek no "honor" title, I have no need for ribbons, medals, awards... I have my friends and family and I am a TPFer now till the end *was going to let my nation delete until this war broke out* Once our allies are out, we have peace/terms/whatever, I will offer my resources to rebuild us to the best of my abilities. I will leave Bob with a clear conscience in knowing that in my time in TPF and in Elysium, I never once took the low road but instead treated both my "enemies" and friends with as much dignity, respect and "honor" as I would hope they would bestow on me. mhawk has led me well and I owe my time here to his guidance and friendship. I just hope that those of you who would like to remain hostile to TPF for past transgressions remember that the "shoe is on the other foot" and you will long be remembered for your rhetoric but more so your actions. I believe our recent "acta non verba" stance has been more than memorable. I wish our "enemies" and allies luck and best regards in moving on. May we all find our paths and follow our hearts in our future journeys. oo/ mhawk *I am here to the 'end' Thanks to our friends and allies for your continued support. "The Phoenix will be reborn!" EDIT: to better clarify my points I've missed ya bud. Best 300k I ever spent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 If honour comes to these who experience the most hardship then TPF have come late to the class. The rest of us paid for our honour for how long now?..3 years roughly is it? What alliance were you in before Sparta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I learn something new every single day here. I didn't even know Sparta had been around for 3 years. And when did Sparta see hardship? I won't speak for my comrade but I believe he's referring to time when he wasn't in Sparta (which is 2 years old). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I won't speak for my comrade but I believe he's referring to time when he wasn't in Sparta (which is 2 years old). I don't think you can argue that Sparta has been oppressed by NPO for 2 years. Hell oppressed at all by NPO? (just following his line of logic that y'all have been oppressed and victims for 3 years) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I don't think you can argue that Sparta has been oppressed by NPO for 2 years. Hell oppressed at all by NPO? (just following his line of logic that y'all have been oppressed and victims for 3 years) That's why I said he was speaking about a time when he was in another alliance... hence why it wouldn't apply to us because he mentioned 3 years ago and we've only existed for 2. I am confused as to how you interpreted my statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auto98 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Wow, your posts have sure deteriorated as of late. I see you have resorted to putting words in my mouth, nice. Please tell me where I said better tactical decisions meant picking the bigger side (I'll address that abomination of an argument here in a second). Better tactical decisions most often mean better allocation of resources (planning out who fights on what fronts) and picking the right time to attack. I'm sorry, but it is clear that both of those points were not addressed well by your military organizers.Let's look at the facts. Initial pre-war projections had about even sides, with the Hegemony with a slight advantage. Well damn, I guess we picked the bigger side huh? If Sparta, MHA, and TOP wanted to choose the bigger side and keep a position of pure political dominance, we would have joined NPO and quite possibly turn the tide of the war. The fact NPO pulled that CB out of their $@! is about as much proof as I need. Anyways, I would hope you knew tension was already at an all time high between NPO's sphere and SF. At least, I would expect that much from someone of your position. You keep ignoring the point - YOUR calculations may have given even sides OUR calculations put the karma side ahead. This was known for several months before the war actually happened - hell slayer used to make "strategic situation" posts on our forums, which constantly had "the other side" well ahead, with the possibility of being even more ahead if certain other alliances fell the wrong way. Stop trying to taint others with your lack of skill at working out the numbers. - we had it right, you had it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 You keep ignoring the point - YOUR calculations may have given even sidesOUR calculations put the karma side ahead. This was known for several months before the war actually happened - hell slayer used to make "strategic situation" posts on our forums, which constantly had "the other side" well ahead, with the possibility of being even more ahead if certain other alliances fell the wrong way. Stop trying to taint others with your lack of skill at working out the numbers. - we had it right, you had it wrong. How does the final result in any way affect our outlook before the war? Please tell me, because no one told me that we had a time machine that would tell us what the future held. The fact that we saw the war as even affected how we felt before the war. Enlighten me as to how the then unknown future should affect our pre-war outlook. While you're at it, tell me why NPO would seek peace the day after they started a war if they went in knowing they'd lose? Also, I find it funny mhawk was confused we had put together a possible defensive strategy in case of NPO aggression weeks in advance and yet you now admit you knew the sides months before the war (by Slayer nonetheless)? Which one is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 While you're at it, tell me why NPO would seek peace the day after they started a war if they went in knowing they'd lose?Also, I find it funny mhawk was confused we had put together a possible defensive strategy in case of NPO aggression weeks in advance and yet you now admit you knew the sides months before the war (by Slayer nonetheless)? Which one is it? To your first question, that likely would point back to torn and a large portion of NPO allies pulling out, prior to NPO seeking terms. To your other question, I was not confused by Sparta's position at all. I do find it highly amusing when in the context of what was said at the highest level gov in Q and in hindsight your plans to fight against Q anyways "should something happen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 To your first question, that likely would point back to torn and a large portion of NPO allies pulling out, prior to NPO seeking terms.To your other question, I was not confused by Sparta's position at all. I do find it highly amusing when in the context of what was said at the highest level gov in Q and in hindsight your plans to fight against Q anyways "should something happen". You had a "side" weeks before the war? I would hardly think you, Mr. OPSEC himself, would need me to clarify anything for you. It's funny now that your comrade would come out and try and admit you thought you were going to lose months ago. To address your first statement, that only shows NPO entered thinking they'd win with the help of their allies. Only when they lost that support did they finally realize the position they were in. Why are you alone in reminding us every week what you've said you're going to do for the last month and a half? If NPO went in knowing they'd lose, why aren't they on this stage with you and attempting to gain PR by saying they entered knowing they'd lose? It has a better shot than that 200 page monstrosity they created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 It has a better shot than that 200 page monstrosity they created. Hey We didn't create it, you and people like you created it by responding. What with the war 'n all, our 'put a gun to your head and make you post' enforcers have been uncoordinated recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycurgus Rex Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I learn something new every single day here. I didn't even know Sparta had been around for 3 years. And when did Sparta see hardship? Who mentioned sparta?,mmm, I will say I have been in many an alliance that opposed NPO, heck I was fighting NPO before Vox even existed. but hey, thats a whole other subject and I wouldnt like to change the topic as TPF need all of the Cyberverse to acknowledge the fact that TPF has honour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 What alliances were you in before Sparta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I would hardly think you, Mr. OPSEC himself, would need me to clarify anything for you. It's funny now that your comrade would come out and try and admit you thought you were going to lose months ago. The funny part should be your lack of OPSEC, and the fact that we knew where you would fall in the War when you were allied to NPO. That we were able to acurately predict who would fall where with very few small excpetions shows exactly how good our Intel was, vs evidently your own either lack of intel or inability to read it right. KingZog hit it on the head, our most optimistic projections had Karma at only a considerable advantage, if Admin had smiled on us and everything went our way, then we MIGHT have had a chance albeit a small one. But those were the optimistic ones, the most likely projections were pretty much spot on with what happened with maybe a slight tilt to the total curbstomp side. It hasn't come out before now, cause it hasn't come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneBallMan Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I would hardly think you, Mr. OPSEC himself, would need me to clarify anything for you. It's funny now that your comrade would come out and try and admit you thought you were going to lose months ago.To address your first statement, that only shows NPO entered thinking they'd win with the help of their allies. Only when they lost that support did they finally realize the position they were in. Why are you alone in reminding us every week what you've said you're going to do for the last month and a half? If NPO went in knowing they'd lose, why aren't they on this stage with you and attempting to gain PR by saying they entered knowing they'd lose? It has a better shot than that 200 page monstrosity they created. Admit what? I was banging the "we are screwed" drum for months in advance... Just ask around why so many Pacificans hate me. Other than being obnoxiously sanctimonious of course... I can't speak to anyone in Pacifica thinking they were at risk of losing, my experience suggests otherwise. As General Kilkenny so rightly pointed out, we knew well in advance that Sparta could never allow herself to be on the losing side, so she would flip. And you did. I could care less whether you believe me or not, I just wanted to give props to our G2 guys who farking nailed this one. OBM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycurgus Rex Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 What alliances were you in before Sparta. I have to explain myself do I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I have to explain myself do I? Cool your jets guy. I am just interested what alliances you were in that have been screwed. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycurgus Rex Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I was in NPO at one stage...then ONOS and then Sparta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadshot Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 I was in NPO at one stage...then ONOS and then Sparta. Cool. That's all I was curious about. Wasn't planning to rip on you or anything. It's time for bed, have a good day/night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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