I'm baffled NPO

[Caliph]

Ah yes, I shall trust in their just judgment.

As they have had to trust in yours when you beat them down and extorted them?

Or how GATO "trusted your judgement" when you ordered them all out of PM or else they would be ZI'ed?

Or how Legion trusted your judgement when they accepted to pay you guys an unspecified total of reps for an unspecified amount of time under a viceroyship from Zhadum for an unspecified period of time (just keep the cash flowing to NPO)?

Come off it, its not like this is the first time this type of situation has happened.

Again, this isn't about our paranoia. Terms that are necessary to keep us down for this long is about Karma's paranoia and their fear that we will ruse up and destroy them

Terms are necessary because the NPO has specifically acted against everyone they determined were a threat with extreme prejudice, and have carried grudges for years (the grudge against Legion for GW1 only ended when Legion accepted to pay NPO an unspecified total of reps, for an unspecified period of time, and accepted an NPO viceroyship for an unspecified period of time).

So we have good reason to want to leave the NPO as crippled as possible, given your actions over the past 3 years.

That's incorrect, actually. We told GATO very early on what they would have to do to get released after 6 months. These goals were made after discussing them with GATO leaders. The single goal they didn't meet was finishing their Charter convention. Come April, it hadn't finished after many, many months, so we decided to let them go with their old Charter to remain.

What of Legion and their unspecified period of reps and viceroyship?

[King DrunkWino]

I have never, ever seen any reference to $%&@.

Libel.

edit: filtered out the 'r' word.

And seriously i have never seen that.

Please don't start making things up please.

Oh, I'm going to let the prosecution present evidence first.

[Letum]

That is exactly what you and yours have done over the past 2 years, in the years of "Pax Pacifica", since the UJW.

The fact that you regard the UJW as the beginning of some point of Pacifican supremacy, when it was pretty much the exact opposite, shows how little you know about the world.

But yes, carry on making us into the scapegoat of CN.

So we have an entirely different story after reading the terms. NPO will face harsh terms, but with some of the bets economic minds in the game assessing them they will be doable by the NPO.

Those same minds that claim the terms will never change, that handwave away our rightful objections without even bothering to actually address the equations within, that feel a beaten down alliance paying out 213% of their tech in reps is too lenient, and who are the very definition of a revanchist behaviour?

Should trust Ragnarok, who imposed a Viceroy on Illuminati only to turn around and war them to disbandment two months later? (because, apparently, taking them from 300 members to 24 was not enough the first time around) VE who was perfectly content to claim massive reps, only to turn around and claim their hands were "clean" because they jumped once the political winds changed, whilst continuing the exact same behaviour? Revanche, that's going around sounding like Prodical_Chieftain reincarnated?

It is the desire of Karma to debilitate us completely. And whilst I will not claim that I should have any ability to regulate their desires, it would be absurd to expect us to surrender with terms that would just bind us to the highest amount of reps ever, and then still let them pound away at us, only to "trust" that what we signed will somehow be reduced. Especially as they have no desire, and no benefit in doing so.

So please, stop bringing up the "it's up to xxxx, we aren't really going to give you guys the full amount" defence. Give the koolaid to someone who will drink it.

You can harp on as much as you want about your subjective view that we allegedly "deserve" this. You can even feed your people your propaganda that we are "stupid", and later on, that "karma is not responsible for Pacifica's incompetence", if that will help you avoid the creation of cognitive dissonance within your soul. But no amount of rationalization and excuses for your actions is going to make us give up and let you destroy us. Even if you believe we deserve it.

On the other hand, Karma could let us surrender now, pay our reps, which despite being the harshest ever offered, we are prepared to pay, now, war is over. But they want to keep on fighting us and choking to destruction.

[Cortath]

Oh, but you will. Try at least. It will not be so obvious as it has been in the past, but based on your past, and more importantly, the way NPO members continue to conduct themselves (grunt to emperor), your mentality has not changed.

We are just ensuring you are occupied with other things while the multipolar world (led by evil Citadel, according to an NPO IO) leads the world in sexiness, frustration and charming wit.

*shrugs* Since you can read my mind and know my future intentions, there's not much point in responding to your post, eh?

[KingEsus]

So we have good reason to want to leave the NPO as crippled as possible, given your actions over the past 3 years.

What of Legion and their unspecified period of reps and viceroyship?

You are not those people. You are not giving those people the billions in reps that you are asking for.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

I have absolutely ZERO interest in your proposed bureaucracy to ensure destruction.

My point is you are the biggest hypocrites in the history of this game.

You have no claim to to the moral high ground. If you wanted to make a point. You should of beaten us down (as has happened) and then lead by example.

But instead you want billions upon billions of aid to profit your own coalition on behalf of an entirely different group of people. And ... and this is unprecedented ... you have singled out a specific group of people who are to pay for this.

1. Profit? You do realize that NPO launched countless nukes, which did significant monetary damage to Karma nations, right? Nobody's profiting from this war, save maybe the innocent victims that NPO would have oppressed in the future

2. You clearly have no idea why this war happened. Through history, NPO has essentially betrayed/disrespected each of its allies at some point or another, most of which to the point of crushing said alliances and even declaring permanent war on a select few. In a game in which an entity abuses its alies, logic dictates that the other players won't ally with said entity, but other CN alliances feared NPO so much that they would sign treaties with NPO for political security and even accept the disrespect from NPO that comes standard for anyone, ally or enemy. However, once alliances started to see that others also had a desire to knock NPO down a notch, the winds of change swept through CN like wildfire. So, basically, even if you are big and bad, if you're an !@#$%^& to everyone, they'll eventually rise up and bring you down. It's not that Karma is trying to change the game, they're just giving the my idols their just desserts.

[KingEsus]

1. Profit? You do realize that NPO launched countless nukes, which did significant monetary damage to Karma nations, right? Nobody's profiting from this war, save maybe the innocent victims that NPO would have oppressed in the future

2. You clearly have no idea why this war happened. Through history, NPO has essentially betrayed/disrespected each of its allies at some point or another, most of which to the point of crushing said alliances and even declaring permanent war on a select few. In a game in which an entity abuses its alies, logic dictates that the other players won't ally with said entity, but other CN alliances feared NPO so much that they would sign treaties with NPO for political security and even accept the disrespect from NPO that comes standard for anyone, ally or enemy. However, once alliances started to see that others also had a desire to knock NPO down a notch, the winds of change swept through CN like wildfire. So, basically, even if you are big and bad, if you're an !@#$%^& to everyone, they'll eventually rise up and bring you down. It's not that Karma is trying to change the game, they're just giving the my idols their just desserts.

Well again, if this was FAN dictating the terms, I could (nearly) understand it. Apart from a warm fuzzy feeling you get nothing from all this.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

On the other hand, Karma could let us surrender now, pay our reps, which despite being the harshest ever offered, we are prepared to pay, now, war is over. But they want to keep on fighting us and choking to destruction.

Wrong, they're not the worst terms ever, NPO is a humongous alliance that could easily foot 8 billion, and reparations are nowhere near the worst thing that has ever happened. If you want to avoid the "come out of peace mode" thing, which is understandable, you should offer much higher, like 10-13 billion, at least.

Well again, if this was FAN dictating the terms, I could (nearly) understand it. Apart from a warm fuzzy feeling you get nothing from all this.

You don't seem to realize how many Karma leaders have, in fact, been wronged by NPO. They are mainly long-term players, and odds are if you play the game for a year, NPO is going to screw you over at least once.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon

[King DrunkWino]

Actually, there's an interesting idea. Just let FAN set the reps.

[Sal Paradise]

2 years of war would be pretty harsh. Let's be fair and give the NPO 1/4 of that.

[Caliph]

You are not those people. You are not giving those people the billions in reps that you are asking for.

That is correct, and you will also note that I am not in any of the alliances at war with NPO at this time.

I am also not in charge of anything relating to "Karma". My alliance fought for Karma's side in the war, and thus can be counted in the "Karma alliances" group, but at this point in time we are not engaged in this war, having given white peace to all of our opponents.

So do please continue as to how I have no right to the reps that I have not asked for.

[Letum]

Wrong, they're not the worst terms ever, NPO is a humongous alliance that could easily foot 8 billion, and reparations are nowhere near the worst thing that has ever happened. If you want to avoid the "come out of peace mode" thing, which is understandable, you should offer much higher, like 10-13 billion, at least.

You do realise that the tech part is much heavier than the money part, right?

10 billion is, in comparison, fairly cheap.

[ChairmanHal]

The logic is they made GATO do it, and threatened others to do it as well. They tried to get FAN to do it for a year after FAN fought the war, got peace terms, and got hit when NPO got FAN ghosts to violate terms so they could hit FAN days before they would be released from their terms.

Come on Hal, this is Karma, plane and simple. NPO did it to others, and now others are doing it to the NPO. Karma is not "we will attack you but offer white peace", Karma by its very definition is "we will do unto you what you did unto others". The sooner you, and every other NPO sympathizer and Karma detractor realize this, the more sense these terms make.

I started my remarks in this thread by reminding people that I'm hardly a NPO sympathizer. I don't have a "I <3 Moo" t-shirt. If I supported Valhalla entering the war, it was because we were obligated to do so by treaty (I speak of Q, not any direct treaty with NPO).

I'm not accusing Karma of trying to lure NPO out in the open for anything "evil". I'm suggesting that those on the sidelines of this circus would like our GRL to drop down to near 0 again. I'm suggesting that too much emphasis is being placed on "doing what NPO did to GATO to NPO because it is a poetic justice". The scythe cuts both ways. I'm also suggesting that maybe, just maybe, there is a way out of this that stops the blood letting and puts an immediate halt to all the dickering.

FYI: FAN's violations were real, but were at best relatively minor, were not brought up as they happened so that they could be remedied, and when they were finally brought up in a DoW, it was less than 2 days prior to the expiration of the surrender terms. At the time I was one of a great number of people who found NPO's actions dishonorable and beneath the standards one would expect for a premiere CN alliance.

[Seerow]

You do realise that the tech part is much heavier than the money part, right?

10 billion is, in comparison, fairly cheap.

Indeed. 100,000 tech is roughly equivalent to 3 billion. So the overall terms are equivalent to 16billion, which isn't a laughing matter.

It's doable over time, but still petty hefty. If we're forced to deal with a set amount I'd say it feels about right.

That said there's so many other more interesting options I can't wholeheartedly agree with Karma's position. But alas, what can you do.

[KingEsus]

That is correct, and you will also note that I am not in any of the alliances at war with NPO at this time.

I am also not in charge of anything relating to "Karma". My alliance fought for Karma's side in the war, and thus can be counted in the "Karma alliances" group, but at this point in time we are not engaged in this war, having given white peace to all of our opponents.

So do please continue as to how I have no right to the reps that I have not asked for.

Ahhh. In which case. Please be quiet. You don't' stand to benefit. You don't stand to loose. I can safely ignore you.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

You do realise that the tech part is much heavier than the money part, right?

10 billion is, in comparison, fairly cheap.

Fine then, I bet NPO would be lucky with 13 billion, 500,000 tech, and no flight from peace mode, but I think that would be too lenient for Karma, anyways.

Here's a thought: 8 billion to Karma forces, plus a billion each to GATO, FAN, Polaris, GPA, (Legion?), and anyone else Karma considers to have been wronged by NPO?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Caliph]

The fact that you regard the UJW as the beginning of some point of Pacifican supremacy, when it was pretty much the exact opposite, shows how little you know about the world.

I started with the UJW because that is the time period in which I have noticed the NPO performing Unjust Acts. GW1, 2, and 3 were all somewhat justified.

In every war the NPO participated in since GW3, we have seen the NPO betray allies, curbstomp those who were no threat to them, and issue harsher and harsher terms, including what was at the time the harshest surrender terms ever.

So please attack my knowledge of history, say I don't know what I am talking about. I find it hilarious because I was there for the parts I am specifically speaking about.

But yes, carry on making us into the scapegoat of CN.

You're not the scapegoat, you are simply guilty of performing certain acts that have caused many to dislike your alliance, and finally we have had enough. This is not because we want to blame the NPO for everything that is wrong in CN, we are simply blaming you for everything you have done directly to us, and to others, and are holding you accountable.

If that is your definition of being a "scapegoat", I would hate to see what the justice system is like in your (In character) country.

Those same minds that claim the terms will never change, that handwave away our rightful objections without even bothering to actually address the equations within, that feel a beaten down alliance paying out 213% of their tech in reps is too lenient, and who are the very definition of a revanchist behaviour?

Your last two sentences are propoganda, with filler words designed to induce your viewpoint upon the reader.

The terms have been presented to you, with the stipulations that if NPO really cannot pay the maximum amount, that the amount of reps will be scaled down. You continue to refuse to acknowledge that the ball is no longer in your court anymore. You still attempt to dictate reps to us. The fact is these reps are about removing NPO's sanction, and with your nations in peace mode that cannot be done. So we have 2 choices. Keep NPO in war until alliances rise in rank and score to remove NPO from sanction. Or NPO leaves peace mode, takes its beat down, and agrees to terms.

The inevitable is NPO loses its sanction. The sooner it happens the quicker you can rebuild, because the terms will be harsh regardless of the size of NPO when terms are finally agreed to.

Should trust Ragnarok, who imposed a Viceroy on Illuminati only to turn around and war them to disbandment two months later? (because, apparently, taking them from 300 members to 24 was not enough the first time around) VE who was perfectly content to claim massive reps, only to turn around and claim their hands were "clean" because they jumped once the political winds changed, whilst continuing the exact same behaviour? Revanche, that's going around sounding like Prodical_Chieftain reincarnated?

Yes, you should. Because of the same reason Legion had to trust you, GPA had to trust you, and how FAN trusted you the first time before you broke that trust.

It is the desire of Karma to debilitate us completely. And whilst I will not claim that I should have any ability to regulate their desires, it would be absurd to expect us to surrender with terms that would just bind us to the highest amount of reps ever, and then still let them pound away at us, only to "trust" that what we signed will somehow be reduced. Especially as they have no desire, and no benefit in doing so.

It has been stated by alliances actually at war with you, and in charge of dictating terms, that they would make sure only 2 weeks of war was imposed on nations who jump out of PM due to the terms being accepted.

I don't speak for Karma, nor those alliances, so perhaps you could bring up these points with either an authorized Karma rep, or all 12 or so alliances at war with you presently and come to an understanding.

So please, stop bringing up the "it's up to xxxx, we aren't really going to give you guys the full amount" defence. Give the koolaid to someone who will drink it.

You are intent at ignoring the fact that I am not a Karma rep. I hold no position in Karma, simply a gov member in an alliance that was in Karma during the war against Zenith, NADC, and Avalon. Not the NPO.

I have no authority over the terms, I am simply stating what the terms state, and am noticing that you find placing yourself at the mercy of Karma completely unacceptable. That is the sticking point of you not accepting terms. You refuse to place yourself at the mercy of Karma, which is the only way Karma will believe you have truly changed.

You can harp on as much as you want about your subjective view that we allegedly "deserve" this. You can even feed your people your propaganda that we are "stupid", and later on, that "karma is not responsible for Pacifica's incompetence", if that will help you avoid the creation of cognitive dissonance within your soul. But no amount of rationalization and excuses for your actions is going to make us give up and let you destroy us. Even if you believe we deserve it.

I don't claim you are stupid, I claim that you are using this, and everything else possible, to help you in a PR campaign induced to force to have Karma accept peace on your terms. I personally would dislike greatly for such a thing to happen, as it would prove that you have not changed, which is directly contradictory to what you and your government are trying to portray.

On the other hand, Karma could let us surrender now, pay our reps, which despite being the harshest ever offered, we are prepared to pay, now, war is over. But they want to keep on fighting us and choking to destruction.

No, Karma keeps fighting to take away your sanction. You can get on the winds of change and submit yourself to Karma, lose your sanction, and be allowed to surrender, or you can refuse the terms, as you are doing, and fight on from ZI, while leaving your upper/middle tiers in peace mode to try to retain your sanction.

I personally believe Karma won't let up until you have lost your sanction. That is possible if either you all leave PM and accept your beatdown, and "fight the war that you have started" (kinda like that line you spouted against FAN, when they lost 7 mill NS in that war), or until other alliances grow large enough to knock you out of sanction spot.

The sooner you accept that you are going to lose your sanction, the sooner you can get started paying harsh reps (which you will be paying to retain peace, the reps you pay will be harshly scaled to the size and capable you have to pay them at the time), and then work on rebuilding.

Edit: missed a quote.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Caliph

[Steelrat]

The reason NPO hasn't accepted the terms as presented is that they still want what is left of their upper tier intact. They would rather not have to rebuild what is left of their upper tier back up to that level, and want to retain as much fighting power in the near term future.

I was going to wrote a huge essay when i found this, it sums up mine in a few words.

Caliph hit the nail and i fully understand NPO´s desire to try that what i still don´t get is that NPO try it via this obvious attempt of propaganda.

In other words why using math and game mechanics as excuse which can be cross checked and proofed wrong, making a big fuss in public which is backfiring now, if you just could have negotiate in private to get what you want.

I would have calculate the best and worst outcome at average, cash wise, for my peacemode nations, would have gone to Karma and offered first the best outcome as additonal reps. That would have had two big advantages, spared me the facepalm of proved wrong in public and 14extra days of war. Even if Karma wouldn´t agree to the first offer and i had to pay my worst calculated outcome, it would have been still the better option, early peace, faster rebulding.

And yes, NPO offered additonal reps in exchange but the way it was done was not the smartest move and of course Karma can calc too..

Edited June 14, 2009 by Steelrat

[John Edward]

Look, this game is playing the hand that is dealt to you by others. Before you're going to leave war, you need to address why you're getting beaten down

So are you saying that winning too many wars is the issue? That, in essence, is what it comes down to. Yes people are whining about our "harsh" terms to those we beast, but even if we offered "light terms" i guarantee that this would still be going on. Even though the unofficial DOW and the reasons behind the near impossible peace terms is NPO's "harsh" terms of past, we would still be at war as the hate for the NPO, which is driving this war, is not from the past terms handed out but because they were flat out beat, and have been beat for the past 3 years (i say 3 years as, for this argument, i will bow to KARMA's view the NPO lost the GPW for the sake of lake of argument over it). So you are basically saying, Jaxon, that we should start loosing more, on purpose at that given past history. I don't think this is viable.

[Jens of the desert]

Dear Steelrat,

Thank you for your opinion.

All the best,

- James Dahl

SilverHawk, is that you?

But really NPO, if even the Gremlins are now telling you what numbers you are fabricating are bs, it's time you went back to mr fixit and have a good long look at those numbers, and they wont lie to you...

Grow a pair and finish off the war you started. You can and will grow again after this, everyone knows that perfectly well, so why do you seem to be the only ones that dont and try to change the rep terms? Or maybe you just want to try and do another GW I on us. Well I think you'll find that isn't going to be happening. I hope you will think over this a second time, it isn't too late...yet.

[Caliph]

So are you saying that winning too many wars is the issue? That, in essence, is what it comes down to. Yes people are whining about our "harsh" terms to those we beast, but even if we offered "light terms" i guarantee that this would still be going on. Even though the unofficial DOW and the reasons behind the near impossible peace terms is NPO's "harsh" terms of past, we would still be at war as the hate for the NPO, which is driving this war, is not from the past terms handed out but because they were flat out beat, and have been beat for the past 3 years (i say 3 years as, for this argument, i will bow to KARMA's view the NPO lost the GPW for the sake of lake of argument over it). So you are basically saying, Jaxon, that we should start loosing more, on purpose at that given past history. I don't think this is viable.

That is not why I am biased against NPO at this time.

I am biased because NPO flat out betrayed my old alliance, who was ever the loyal ally to the NPO.

My old alliance was not the only one betrayed by the NPO. I know others feel the same resentment, and I garauntee you quite a few of those at war with you now are there because you either betrayed them in the past (the alliances or the people leading them), or have issued harsh terms upon them (either the people or the alliances). A lot of people don't like you, not because you have won wars, but because of how you won them.

You won them by betraying your allies, not honoring treaties you said you would uphold, and kept those down by issuing harsh terms.

It amazes me to see how many of you are ignorant as to how others feel about you, and how you are completely ignorant as to the reasons. It is this superiority complex, that somehow you think that we don't like you because you're simply better, that I don't like. That is part of the reason some don't like you.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

So are you saying that winning too many wars is the issue? That, in essence, is what it comes down to. Yes people are whining about our "harsh" terms to those we beast, but even if we offered "light terms" i guarantee that this would still be going on. Even though the unofficial DOW and the reasons behind the near impossible peace terms is NPO's "harsh" terms of past, we would still be at war as the hate for the NPO, which is driving this war, is not from the past terms handed out but because they were flat out beat, and have been beat for the past 3 years (i say 3 years as, for this argument, i will bow to KARMA's view the NPO lost the GPW for the sake of lake of argument over it). So you are basically saying, Jaxon, that we should start loosing more, on purpose at that given past history. I don't think this is viable.

Cute. Nobody is holding against NPO that they win wars, more on whom NPO wages war and how NPO flaunts its victory. NPO has never respected its allies, and becoming a powerful ally of NPO is essentially a taking a number in the "gangbang" line. NPO has never respected its allies' sovereignty or opinions, and the only reason that NPO hadn't been beaten down before this is because pretty much everyone feared NPO. Clearly, throughout the past few years, going against NPO meant death, while signing a treaty with them meant delayed death. Eventually, the winds of change blew through alliance leaderships, whispering in everone's ear that NP coan be beaten. If you want proof, notice how many alliances should've been on your side and a few months ago decided to jump ship (TOP, VE, every other alliance that canceled their treaties with you knowing you were going down).

Also, iirc, the post you quoted was about dealing the hand that you are dealt. NPO dug this hole for themselves by pissing everyone off, and constantly nagging your attackers is not going to make people like you. To get peace, yu must appeal to Karma leaders, not the general public. To leave war, you must recognize the objectives of Karma and try your best to appease their desires. You're not just going to get peace if you !@#$%* a lot.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon

[boscher]

Come out of peace mode you cowards!!!

ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

[King DrunkWino]

NPO dug this hole for themselves by pissing everyone off, and constantly nagging your attackers is not going to make people like you. To get peace, yu must appeal to Karma leaders, not the general public. To leave war, you must recognize the objectives and try your best to appeal their desires. You're not just going to get peace if you !@#$%* a lot.

From God's mind to Stonewall Jaxon's mouth to our ears.

[Heracles the Great]

So are you saying that winning too many curbstomps is the issue? That, in essence, is what it comes down to. Yes people are whining about our "harsh" terms to those we stomped, but even if we offered "light terms" i guarantee that this would still be going on. Even though the unofficial DOW and the reasons behind the near impossible peace terms is NPO's "harsh" terms of past, we would still be at war as the hate for the NPO, which is driving this war, is not from the past terms handed out but because they were flat out curbstomped, and have been stomped for the past 3 years (i say 3 years as, for this argument, i will bow to KARMA's view the NPO lost the GPW for the sake of lake of argument over it). So you are basically saying, Jaxon, that we should start loosing more, on purpose at that given past history. I don't think this is viable.

FYP - I think the point you seem oblivious to is that you not only curbstomped multiple alliances, you took their sovereignty and forced multiple players out of the game.