I'm baffled NPO

[Delta1212]

Your semantic argument is cute.

Next time don't tell me I'm wrong when I'm clearly not, and I won't resort to correcting you.

[neneko]

This is an automated response from Cortath, an Imperial Officer of the New Pacific Order.

You have generated this response for the following reasons: [bad economics], [MK!=NPO].

Please read this post regarding the ability to pay off reparations. and this post about how your alliance is different than mine.

You're 10 times bigger so you can't work at even half the efficency? I don't think size is the problem here. You need to find something else to blame your apparent inability to push around tech and money on.

[Caliph]

You guys are doing so much math and putting so much effort in proofs for terms that NPO, payable or not, is not going to accept.

This.

The fact is NPO is orchastrating a PR campaign here, and is being somewhat successful in that effort.

People want NPO to pay harsh terms because of their actions over the past 2-3 years. However all of a sudden now that Karma wants harsh reps for defeating the NPO, now is the time that everyone is against harsh reps? I don't understand some of your logic here, as it blatantly seems hypocritical.

Additionally, now the NPO has supposedly seen the light after 2 months of warfare. This is to be viewed with suspicion, as it seems that NPO is saying exactly what they think Karma wants to hear.

Why is this happening? Because even now NPO is hoping to dictate their own terms of surrender to the winners of this conflict. Whether or not this is successful depends on external factors, such as how well NPO's propoganda campaign works.

The biggest sticking point for me is that NPO did offer more reps to Karma with no stipulations. This was deemed unacceptable by Karma, and I may not agree with that move. When giving surrender terms, there is a fine line between offering harsh terms designed to cripple an alliances growth for months that they will accept, and giving an alliance terms designed to cripple their growth for months that they will not accept.

The reason NPO hasn't accepted the terms as presented is that they still want what is left of their upper tier intact. They would rather not have to rebuild what is left of their upper tier back up to that level, and want to retain as much fighting power in the near term future.

Anything said contrary to this is a lie. NPO has consistantly stated, with their actions and even with words, that if someone slights them they will do all they can to bury them. That is what a lot of NPO sympathizers here are forgetting, and that is what Karma is wanting to avoid. White peace is out of the question due to what happened last time white peace was given.

It has been proven that these terms can be completed by NPO both now, and after a maximum period of 4 weeks of war the terms are still doable.

NPO has not attempted to clarify any of the stipulations, and I am certain that if NPO were to work with a Karma representative authorized to do some negotiating that terms acceptable to all can be found.

The problems here are twofold. One, the NPO wants peace on their terms, not on Karmas, and this involves leaving what is left of the NPO's higher infra nations intact. Two, Karma hasn't sent NPO anyone capable of negotiating for all the alliances at war with the NPO.

Until one, or both, of those things change, there will be no peace on this front.

[Azaghul]

This is an automated response from Cortath, an Imperial Officer of the New Pacific Order.

You have generated this response for the following reasons: [bad economics], [MK!=NPO].

Please read this post regarding the ability to pay off reparations. and this post about how your alliance is different than mine.

When are you going to stop ignoring the plan I outlined which includes plenty of allowances for inefficiencies and internal aid?

Edit: link here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1614528

Edited June 14, 2009 by Azaghul

[Cortath]

Next time don't tell me I'm wrong when I'm clearly not, and I won't resort to correcting you.

*chuckles*

*sighs*

Alrighty. Evidently I need to explain something.

I ignored a post.

It was brought up that I had ignored it.

I responded to the content of the post I had originally ignored.

Then, I responded explaining why I had originally ignored it.

Now, let's get back on track.

[Cortath]

When are you going to stop ignoring the plan I outlined which includes plenty of allowances for inefficiencies and internal aid?

I'm taking the time to crunch your numbers, while also making dough for a pizza. Guess which one is tastier?

[Caliph]

I'm taking the time to crunch your numbers, while also making dough for a pizza. Guess which one is tastier?

That depends.

Which one has pepperoni?

[Cortath]

That depends.

Which one has pepperoni?

Neither. I was planning candied pear, potato, goat cheese, with arugula on top. Debating what kind of dressing. Possibly something simple, like lemon juice and olive oil, but perhaps more substantial, due to the potential dryness of the final creation.

[Delta1212]

*chuckles*

*sighs*

Alrighty. Evidently I need to explain something.

I ignored a post.

It was brought up that I had ignored it.

I responded to the content of the post I had originally ignored.

Then, I responded explaining why I had originally ignored it.

Now, let's get back on track.

There's no ignoring. There's simply the fact that Karma has made it clear that they will no accept no altering of that term. If they will, contrary to their express statements, they need to come and approach us with the new, altered term.

What did I just say? Anywho, I'm all for dropping this tangent.

[Caliph]

Neither. I was planning candied pear, potato, goat cheese, with arugula on top. Debating what kind of dressing. Possibly something simple, like lemon juice and olive oil, but perhaps more substantial, due to the potential dryness of the final creation.

Never had candied pears and potatos on my pizza before.

Though I'm sure that tastes better than math

[Cortath]

Never had candied pears and potatos on my pizza before.

Though I'm sure that tastes better than math

Math doesn't go well on a honey-wheat crust.

[potato]

Neither. I was planning candied pear, potato, goat cheese, with arugula on top. Debating what kind of dressing. Possibly something simple, like lemon juice and olive oil, but perhaps more substantial, due to the potential dryness of the final creation.

YOU DESERVE HARSHER TERMS!

[ChairmanHal]

Actually, I think they maintain that the NPO already walked in front of the firing squad. They just want the NPO to stand still.

I'm trying to understand the logic of any coalition actually expecting any alliance to "stand still" and take 13 nukes + conventional damage over 14 days per nation deemed "worthy" (and no doubt any number not deemed so but presenting themselves as targets) and also pay high reparations on top of it.

What makes it even more amusing is that while said coalition is chucking nukes, CMs and whatnot at said alliance over that 13 day period, they actually believe they won't also suffer significant damage themselves, making the whole exercise silly.

If all sides want the war over, then up the reparations amount by some imaginary figure both sides find agreeable and call it peace. If Karma wants to permanently cripple NPO and force them into deletion or eternal peace mode, then get on with it and put away the spreadsheets.

You all are making this WAY too hard.

[TheEraser]

People keep on bringing this warchest thing up, and we keep responding with the same fact.

Yes, our nations with +1billion warchests will survive. So will our nations with only +500m warchests. The problem is, the number of these nations that have a big enough warchest to survive is about 50.

Karma's calculations are based on the assumption that we have 4 times more. They are wrong.

polaris did it with 30. suck it up tough guys.

[Caliph]

I'm trying to understand the logic of any coalition actually expecting any alliance to "stand still" and take 13 nukes + conventional damage over 14 days per nation deemed "worthy" (and no doubt any number not deemed so but presenting themselves as targets) and also pay high reparations on top of it.

What makes it even more amusing is that while said coalition is chucking nukes, CMs and whatnot at said alliance over that 13 day period, they actually believe they won't also suffer significant damage themselves, making the whole exercise silly.

If all sides want the war over, then up the reparations amount by some imaginary figure both sides find agreeable and call it peace. If Karma wants to permanently cripple NPO and force them into deletion or eternal peace mode, then get on with it and put away the spreadsheets.

You all are making this WAY too hard.

The logic is they made GATO do it, and threatened others to do it as well. They tried to get FAN to do it for a year after FAN fought the war, got peace terms, and got hit when NPO got FAN ghosts to violate terms so they could hit FAN days before they would be released from their terms.

Come on Hal, this is Karma, plane and simple. NPO did it to others, and now others are doing it to the NPO. Karma is not "we will attack you but offer white peace", Karma by its very definition is "we will do unto you what you did unto others". The sooner you, and every other NPO sympathizer and Karma detractor realize this, the more sense these terms make.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

What is interesting, Stonewall Jaxon, and I'm sure a nation in an alliance such as yours can appreciate this, is that I presume they rejected our counter-offer, because they were scared of us. They fear that if we have anything that would allow us to rebuild in under one year, we'll go after them and kill them all. Strategies of long-term war or reparations that are based off of our enemies coming back with a chip on their shoulder and hatred in their hearts are mistaken, as we have learned from our conflict with FAN, and I wish that we had learned it sooner.

There's one little difference, NPO delcared eternal war from the beginning, while Karma is forced to do so because NPO, having schedued its own beat-down, sent enugh nations into peace mode to maintain sanction status. During VietFAN, FAN was ground down to the #122 alliance, and those who were in peace mode slipped into peace after rounds of attacks. NPO feared FAN so much that even FAN as a little alliance of core members scared NPO so much that they were willing to have themselves and their allies infiltrated for years. As far as I know, no alliance has ever been gangbanged and then received peace while still sanctioned, even if IRON regained sanctioned status soon afterward. I hate to be one of those "come out of peace mode" types, but nobody is going to let an alliance cleanly off the hook unless that opponent could n longer hurt a fly; that's just how war works.

Look, this game is playing the hand that is dealt to you by others. Before you're going to leave war, you need to address why you're getting beaten down, what the people beating you down want, and how you can appease them. BAWWW threads, and general whining will not help you, and such plays for PR might even infuriate your opponents more.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Petrovich4]

In response to your response of my response to the OP (lol)

We've offered to pay it. We've offered to pay more.

We don't want more reps (yet... though you and others are making it very easy just to up that number) - we want to take down your upper/middle tier.

Don't like that? Next time, don't start an unnecessary offensive war.

NPO will not be budging us. Keep sending your verbal meathsields that are throwing numbers around and ignoring other numbers. Many enjoy it, others are frustrated by the brick wall that has become NPO. As the OP has stated, I'll lean towards propaganda.

[KingEsus]

People want NPO to pay harsh terms because of their actions over the past 2-3 years. However all of a sudden now that Karma wants harsh reps for defeating the NPO, now is the time that everyone is against harsh reps? I don't understand some of your logic here, as it blatantly seems hypocritical.

Additionally, now the NPO has supposedly seen the light after 2 months of warfare. This is to be viewed with suspicion, as it seems that NPO is saying exactly what they think Karma wants to hear.

Why is this happening? Because even now NPO is hoping to dictate their own terms of surrender to the winners of this conflict.

[ooc]Or maybe we just want to carry on enjoying playing. Because as no one seems to have factored in, many of these 75 or whatever nations are just going to leave. [/ooc]

But i am astonished that the Robin Hood's of CN, the minute the boot is on the other foot want to impose the harshest terms in the history of CN vindictively seeking out individual nations and forcing them into slavery, despite stating that harsh terms were not their goal.

[Petrovich4]

[ooc]Or maybe we just want to carry on enjoying playing. Because as no one seems to have factored in, many of these 75 or whatever nations are just going to leave. [/ooc]

But i am astonished that the Robin Hood's of CN, the minute the boot is on the other foot want to impose the harshest terms in the history of CN vindictively seeking out individual nations and forcing them into slavery, despite stating that harsh terms were not their goal.

None of the alliances you are currently fighting ever claimed to be Robin Hood. With respect to you and me, what you view as harsh and impossible, I view as justified and difficult.

[Azaghul]

[ooc]Or maybe we just want to carry on enjoying playing. Because as no one seems to have factored in, many of these 75 or whatever nations are just going to leave. [/ooc]

But i am astonished that the Robin Hood's of CN, the minute the boot is on the other foot want to impose the harshest terms in the history of CN vindictively seeking out individual nations and forcing them into slavery, despite stating that harsh terms were not their goal.

[ooc]That didn't stop you in the past when you EZI'd people, attacked a peace loving alliance (GPA), imposed harsh term, etc.[/ooc]

[Caliph]

[ooc]Or maybe we just want to carry on enjoying playing. Because as no one seems to have factored in, many of these 75 or whatever nations are just going to leave. [/ooc]

But i am astonished that the Robin Hood's of CN, the minute the boot is on the other foot want to impose the harshest terms in the history of CN vindictively seeking out individual nations and forcing them into slavery, despite stating that harsh terms were not their goal.

That is exactly what you and yours have done over the past 2 years, in the years of "Pax Pacifica", since the UJW.

You have forced GATO into slavery for 1 year. You extorted GPA after beating them down, and issuing the then harshest terms in history. You extorted MK when they enterred a war honoring a defense treaty and issued unto them incredibly harsh terms. Your emporer acted to force Polaris to accept harsh surrender terms in that war.

Forgive me if I just don't seem to care how you feel when the boot is on the other foot, when you are on the receiving end of actions you and yours have participated in, grown from, and enjoyed the past year.

[ooc] You want to continue playing? Was that a concern you had for MK, for GPA, for Legion, and the countless others you have either betrayed in the middle of beatdown wars, or participated in the beat down and extortion of them? You treated others one way when you were victorious, and on the winning side. Now that you are on the losing side, we are treating you that exact same way you treated others. If you didn't want this to happen, you should have acted better towards your foes.

[KingEsus]

None of the alliances you are currently fighting ever claimed to be Robin Hood. With respect to you and me, what you view as harsh and impossible, I view as justified and difficult.

But not justified by the alliances imposing them. If we were fighting GATO and they wanted to impose a term regarding peace mode nations, perhaps, but karma just want profit now, your goal is no higher than that. They are not reallocating aid to the alliances which were victims of supposed wrongdoing.

The terms are impossible. Like NpO and others did after their big war, the NPO will suffer from nations who had either decided to leave before but just didn't make it out in time, or as a result have decided to leave. Many of those nations are just looking for an honourable way out of the mess.

[potato]

The terms are impossible. Like NpO and others did after their big war, the NPO will suffer from nations who had either decided to leave before but just didn't make it out in time, or as a result have decided to leave. Many of those nations are just looking for an honourable way out of the mess.

That's what individual surrender terms are for.

[Caliph]

But not justified by the alliances imposing them. If we were fighting GATO and they wanted to impose a term regarding peace mode nations, perhaps, but karma just want profit now, your goal is no higher than that. They are not reallocating aid to the alliances which were victims of supposed wrongdoing.

The terms are impossible. Like NpO and others did after their big war, the NPO will suffer from nations who had either decided to leave before but just didn't make it out in time, or as a result have decided to leave. Many of those nations are just looking for an honourable way out of the mess.

You are purposely ignoring the terms, which state that the amount to be paid is up to that amount, meaning that the amount would not exceed that amount, and could be less.

Another part of the terms reads as something similar to when NPO has complied we will assess the terms and come up with numbers that we believe NPO can pay.

So we have an entirely different story after reading the terms. NPO will face harsh terms, but with some of the bets economic minds in the game assessing them they will be doable by the NPO.

If you have nations that leave, good riddince. You don't need hypocrits and bullies in your ranks, who enjoy extorting others in agressive wars, but when they lose an agressive war they quit. You are better without those types of people.

[KingEsus]

[ooc]That didn't stop you in the past when you EZI'd people, attacked a peace loving alliance (GPA), imposed harsh term, etc.[/ooc]

You are not the GPA. And of course others were just as responsible. You are not GATO or Legion and again others were as involved. Many, many alliances have until recently imposed EZI.

However it is You who are imposing the harshest terms ever.

Your not as as 'bad' as us. You are worse than us.