Are We Harsh?

[Matthew Conrad]

Please tell me wich single alliance demanded 300k tech from NPO.

No alliance, just Londo.

[Mixoux]

No alliance, just Londo.

Almost forgot, because Londo is actually the one receiving all of these reps and tech, not the actual alliances fighting them.

[Aurion]

Almost forgot, because Londo is actually the one receiving all of these reps and tech, not the actual alliances fighting them.

Londo prevails? I like it.

Londo prevails o/

Edited June 15, 2009 by Aurion

[King DrunkWino]

All NPO members must post at least once per day that they lost this war

All NPO members must change their CN forum avatar to a pretty pretty princess

All NPO members must carry 5x more land than infra for green spaces to atone for all the nukes

All NPO members must hold 50 Cruise Missiles, Full Tanks, and enough troops to make their citizens uncomfortable. They must also stay in DEFCON 1 and Sever threat levels along with 5 GC's and 5 barracks.

All NPO members must change their AA to "Karma Whooped Us"

[TypoNinja]

Londo prevails? I like it.

Londo prevails o/

As I was just watching some B5 last night I second the motion.

Londo prevails! o/

[TypoNinja]

Double post sorry, but somebody in the monster thread brought up a great term that we forgot about.

Secret terms. Now since it was a secret term, I don't know what it is, but judging by the fact the NPO thought it couldnt be public i'm doubting whatever it is was nice.

[Matthew Conrad]

Londo prevails? I like it.

Londo prevails o/

Man Londo's going to have a beast nation with his 300k tech and 8 billion WC.

Londo Prevails o/

[George the Great]

All I can say is, Treaty of Versailles vs. the end of WWII. In WWI, many of the agrieved countries heavily pushed for not only damages, but punitive reps as put forth here. History proves how well that worked out. Then at the end of WWII, rather than punishing Germany or Japan, America involved themselves in the rebuilding efforts. History proves how well that worked out too.

Punitive reps are just a bad joke that fail in real life and fail in CN. Reps for damage are only slightly less so. The way I see it, you can't ask for it both ways: you either ask for reps or you ask for war. Asking for both is plain retarded. NPO offered not only to pay the large reps, but offered to pay more. This was, of course, denied by those who claim they don't want an eternal war. If they don't want an eternal war, they need to learn that peace is about compromise. Dictating this, that, and the other thing just doesn't work. If peace is truly desired, reason and logic must be respected. It is not logical to ask for large reps and then destroy the banking nations. "But surely the NPO has large warchests!" people cry. Yes, I'm sure they did at the beginning of the war. I'd be willing to wager not nearly so much so by now. The way I see it, ask for war, or ask for peace. Either accept the NPO's offer to pay plus a billion more, or keep fighting. The way I see it, if Karma is so eager for blood, lower the rep requirements, if they 2 weeks of war need to be there. Something that more battered nations can actually pay. If it was up to me, I'd say just drop the reps and have 3 weeks of no-peace mode war, and that any nation that doesn't exit peace mode within a week has to personally pay reps of some amount depending on how long they were there(no need to punish the whole alliance for the insubordination of a few). Have a set start and end time and be done with it. The way this war is currently going, it's looking less and less like a war, and more and more like a PZI sentence.

[OOC]All I can say is, Treaty of Versailles imposed punitive damages, it also threw out the old leadership and replaced it with a new, fail leadership, which they left alone to collapse on top of having to pay for what their predecessors did. We aren't removing the leadership of the NPO and forbidding there return to power, are we? In WWII, the same thing happened, minus the reps. I was going to compare WWII to GWI, but even that doesn't compare to WWII. The NPO was given a wonderful opportunity to play nicely then, but oh, look at that, they abused it and sought revenge against every one of their overly merciful allies. In WWII the government of NAZI Germany was removed yet again, oh nos mah sovereignties D:, and instead the new government was molded into a semi-puppet government and instead of paying reparations, they were given tons of money. Hell, the US even had Japan change their constitution to the US constitution, basically. Japan also has no military yet, they only have a "security force". Did I also mention both countries were decimated before the end of the war and that they both also have permanent US military bases? So, if you want to compare either of those scenarios, I guess we're going to have to do all that, oh AND force the entire government of the New Pacific Order to resign and help ensure they never returning to power. For some reason I don't think you'll like that scenario either, so please drop the WWI and WWII comparisons. If we did do that, though, we certainly wouldn't ask for reps, and maybe then the membership of the New Pacific Order would be opened up to the private parts of their forum where their government hides all the stuff they don't want to see, including the concentration camps. This is CyberNations, not RealNations (while lots of other things do apply, this is one example of something that definitely does not).[/OOC]

No, we aren't being too harsh. It's doable, and amazingly, it's still on the table.

As for the part I bolded there, the reps were lower when we were asking for 3 rounds of war. It was negotiated to 2 weeks of war with higher reps.

Edit: lern2spel

Edited June 15, 2009 by George the Great

[Teriethien]

In WWII the government of NAZI Germany was removed yet again, oh nos mah sovereignties D:, and instead the new government was molded into a semi-puppet government and instead of paying reparations, they were given tons of money.

[OOC]I'm not directing this at you, BTW, just quoting for convenience. But people need to stop saying that the Allies were so lenient towards Germany after WWII, because they weren't. Germany wasn't given money. They were given a loan, which they had to pay back. And they had to pay reps too, in the form of knowledge like patents that were simply seized, equipment that got carted up and carried off, and slave labour by millions of German POW as well as hundreds of thousands of kidnapped civilains - many of whom would die in horrible conditions.

Eventually the politicians discovered that reducing Germany into abject poverty is going to destroy the European economy again. They also realised that the last time they tried this they created Nazi Germany, and didn't particularly want to end up with a Communist Germany, so they stopped.[/OOC]

It's not harsh if Karma will keep its promise about adjusting reparations after assessing NPO's ability to pay after 2 weeks.

[neneko]

2. Errr, what?

Where did I say 'only' 58k tech? The terms are pretty specific with 58.000 tech paid by MK to NPO. It is a fact, nothing more, nothing less.

Whether that amount is a lot or not, I haven't commented on and I don't like you putting words in my mouth.

I also do not know which alliance asked NPO for 300k tech. The question confuses me.

Once again read and understand my posts. That part had nothing to do with if 58k tech is alot and I'm not putting any words in yor mouth. What I was saying was that if you're going to compare these terms to the ones MK got and only look at what they forked out to NPO then compare that to the total that several alliances are demanding from NPO you're just doing a bad job twisting the numbers. If you're going to look at what MK forked out to a single alliance then do the same on the NPO terms. Wich single alliance is demanding 300k tech?

[Henkie]

Once again read and understand my posts. That part had nothing to do with if 58k tech is alot and I'm not putting any words in yor mouth. What I was saying was that if you're going to compare these terms to the ones MK got and only look at what they forked out to NPO then compare that to the total that several alliances are demanding from NPO you're just doing a bad job twisting the numbers. If you're going to look at what MK forked out to a single alliance then do the same on the NPO terms. Wich single alliance is demanding 300k tech?

What we're talking about is the punishment of an alliance, it is irrelevant how much alliances are on the Karma side, when only the one alliance is on the paying side. In other words, it's not about what others'd be receiving, it's about what we'd be paying, and we'd be paying 300k tech. which is over 5 times more than what MK'd be paying.

At any rate, am I the only one who thinks of Orwellian Newspeak when what is clearly punitive payments are labelled "reperations" and when a demand for a minimum of two weeks war is part of the "peace terms"?

[Viluin]

What do you have to lose? You're beating NPO anyways right?

Ragnarok is losing NS every day, their NS chart still clearly shows they are at war. And so was VE's until we stopped focusing on them. They all have things to lose.

EDIT: RoK is actually losing NS just as fast as we are right now.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Viluin

[neneko]

What we're talking about is the punishment of an alliance, it is irrelevant how much alliances are on the Karma side, when only the one alliance is on the paying side. In other words, it's not about what others'd be receiving, it's about what we'd be paying, and we'd be paying 300k tech. which is over 5 times more than what MK'd be paying.

At any rate, am I the only one who thinks of Orwellian Newspeak when what is clearly punitive payments are labelled "reperations" and when a demand for a minimum of two weeks war is part of the "peace terms"?

..and we're back to square one. You realise that NPO is bigger than MK right? you also realise that MK isn't the only alliance that got unfair terms by the NPO right?

These terms are not even close to NPOs crimes. Disbandment wouldn't be enough if we were 'worse than NPO'.

[mykep]

Ragnarok is losing NS every day, their NS chart still clearly shows they are at war. And so was VE's until we stopped focusing on them. They all have things to lose.

EDIT: RoK is actually losing NS just as fast as we are right now.

They dont hide in peace mode, and actually fought 5 alliances as well as you.

[Viluin]

They dont hide in peace mode, and actually fought 5 alliances as well as you.

If I am not mistaken we're still fighting something like 18 alliances. RoK is currently only fighting us. I'd say it's quite exceptional that RoK is losing the same amount of strength on a daily basis as we are. It goes to show that, at this point, prolonging this war hurts both sides quite a bit. When you take the other 17 alliances into account, we're dishing out a lot more damage than we are receiving right now. We have been defeated in the higher ranks, but in the lower ranks we still stand strong.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Viluin

[Vilien]

If I am not mistaken we're still fighting something like 18 alliances. RoK is currently only fighting us. I'd say it's quite exceptional that RoK is losing the same amount of strength on a daily basis as we are. It goes to show that, at this point, prolonging this war hurts both sides quite a bit. When you take the other 17 alliances into account, we're dishing out a lot more damage than we are receiving right now. We have been defeated in the higher ranks, but in the lower ranks we still stand strong.

You got any numbers to back that up? You know, actual data?

[mykep]

http://uevil.maybe.net/2009-06-14_R.png

I find your lack of evidence disturbing.

[Daimos]

Aren’t some of these conditions impose and was supported by NPO’s former rulers and allies who now fight with Karma?

Is Karma punishing the current members of NPO for the crimes of pass members?

The NPO I see is nothing you all describe in these boards. Maybe in the past they were evil, arrogant and ruthless. I just do not see that in the NPO member boards and I am on there everyday.

I hear about Karma being a fair and just entity and I just do not see that from my opponents. All I see is a greedy, vengeful, rabid entity who is out to destroy my alliance. Any honorable man, who has sworn allegiance to the NPO will fight and sacrifice what they have to defend it. I am sure some of Karma can understand and expect nothing less.

“I will rest when I die”

[Vilien]

Is Karma punishing the current members of NPO for the crimes of pass members?

The NPO I see is nothing you all describe in these boards. Maybe in the past they were evil, arrogant and ruthless. I just do not see that in the NPO member boards and I am on there everyday.

Vote with your feet, as a member of your alliance you are responsible for its crimes. You're all exactly the same as you were. Don't pretend to have changed.

[Teriethien]

Is Karma punishing the current members of NPO for the crimes of pass members?

Karma has always accepted individual surrenders. They are not out to punish you for something you don't want to associate yourself with.

[mykep]

Aren’t some of these conditions impose and was supported by NPO’s former rulers and allies who now fight with Karma?

No its for NPO

Is Karma punishing the current members of NPO for the crimes of pass members?

Really? This card? Fine.

They benefit from NPO's past actions.

The NPO I see is nothing you all describe in these boards. Maybe in the past they were evil, arrogant and ruthless. I just do not see that in the NPO member boards and I am on there everyday.

They actually attacked during peace talks...

I hear about Karma being a fair and just entity and I just do not see that from my opponents. All I see is a greedy, vengeful, rabid entity who is out to destroy my alliance. Any honorable man, who has sworn allegiance to the NPO will fight and sacrifice what they have to defend it. I am sure some of Karma can understand and expect nothing less.

Greedy? Your alliance and thier allies have taken the most tech and money...ever.

Vengeful? Yes, we have alot to be vengeful for.

We expect nothing less, but an honourable enemy is still an enemy.

“I will rest when I die”

You look sleepy. How about taking a nap now?

[Viluin]

You got any numbers to back that up? You know, actual data?

Just look at the in-game NS charts.

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...Pacific%20Order

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...liance=Ragnarok still dropping daily (okay, a bit slower than ours, but really, a lot of the "damage" we are receiving is because our bill-locked nations are still being nuked and attacked to bring down their tech, such damage is practically irrelevant at this point).

And then there's the fact that I have personally destroyed nearly 75k NS in the past 3 weeks alone while remaining pretty much unscathed myself.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Viluin

[Teriethien]

Just look at the in-game NS charts.

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...Pacific%20Order

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance...liance=Ragnarok still dropping daily, pretty much at the same rate as ours right now.

And then there's the fact that I have personally destroyed nearly 100k NS in the past 3 weeks alone while remaining pretty much unscathed myself.

You do realise that the scale is different for the two alliances in question, right?

[Viluin]

You do realise that the scale is different for the two alliances in question, right?

Sure, but keep in mind that we have 500 active wars (kinda disappointing actually, only 500 wars? That's a military failure on karma's part right there.. and we declared many of those wars ourselves too) and Ragnarok only has 200.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.as...search=Ragnarok

It's actually quite interesting to see how many of RoK's wars were declared by us. You don't see that often from an alliance that's way outnumbered, not after nearly 60 days of war. Heck, I had open defensive war slots for nearly a week until someone took them, and I'm at 13-17k NS. I highly suspect many nations on the other side are afraid to fight veterans.

It doesn't matter how you look at it really, at this point in the war it's not going very well for Karma.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Viluin

[Vilien]

Sure, but keep in mind that we have 500 active wars (kinda disappointing actually, only 500 wars? That's a military failure on karma's part right there.. and we declared many of those wars ourselves too) and Ragnarok only has 200.

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.as...search=Ragnarok

It's actually quite interesting to see how many of RoK's wars were declared by us. You don't see that often from an alliance that's way outnumbered, not after nearly 60 days of war.

And your point is? Your alliance has lost over 18 million NS since the start of this war. Anything you've done to RoK doesn't even compare.