Harold the Saxon Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Congratulations, you just joined the ranks of posters such as James Dahl. So it's OK for the NPO to go around attacking alliances for no valid CB, to PZI or EZI the leadership of said alliances, to force the disbandment of said alliances, and no one on Digiterra is allowed to stop them because that would just be... unethical? Once again, congratulations, you're now on my Ignore list. Are you ignorant or just stuffing words down my throat? I told you that whilst it is fine to decry the NPO for its past mistakes it is WRONG to do the same things we have condemned to them based on a principle that justice is best served by shacklement. When I say 'no one deserves to be murdered for the sake of killing', I am telling you this: Will doing to the NPO as we have found it evil for doing to others bring back those whom it destroyed? Will it make the wrongs they did right? Will we be any better them for committing to such actions? The answer: no. You called this just and ethical. I call it cold-blooded revenge for the sake of revenge. I call it killing for the sake of killing, and it will bring you no pleasure and peace to conduct such a campaign in this manner. Don't you see that you are solving murder by instigating murder? What is just about this proposition? I don't see it. If you wish to ignore me, then go ahead. You can put your fingers in your ears and pretend my arguments do not exist. I at least listen to what others have to say, especially when it is reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Are you ignorant or just stuffing words down my throat? I told you that whilst it is fine to decry the NPO for its past mistakes it is WRONG to do the same things we have condemned to them based on a principle that justice is best served by shacklement.When I say 'no one deserves to be murdered for the sake of killing', I am telling you this: Will doing to the NPO as we have found it evil for doing to others bring back those whom it destroyed? Will it make the wrongs they did right? Will we be any better them for committing to such actions? The answer: no. You called this just and ethical. I call it cold-blooded revenge for the sake of revenge. I call it killing for the sake of killing, and it will bring you no pleasure and peace to conduct such a campaign in this manner. Don't you see that you are solving murder by instigating murder? What is just about this proposition? I don't see it. If you wish to ignore me, then go ahead. You can put your fingers in your ears and pretend my arguments do not exist. I at least listen to what others have to say, especially when it is reasonable. I invite you to take a look at the history of CN, in particular the area around GWI and the events that followed as the to the rationale behind this terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Fark joined the game through the totally OOC Farkistan website. In no way was it set up as a puppet of LUE. Goons being from SA disliked Farkistan and decided to bring their OOC issues into the game. I literally just burst out laughing. Ahh... I haven't laughed like that in months. If it is so funny, please enlighten me in a PM. I'll gladly apologize for my ignorance if you prove me wrong. But not in this thread. Speaking of which, is that fact that GOONS attacked Fark now a "crime" that Pacifica has to be punished for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raincoat Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I fail to see how shackling is ethical. I don't consider slavery right, regardless of how many times you scream at me they are evil.The NPO can rebuild? That is not the topic I presented in my post. I stated that restriction of an alliance's right to sovereignty; restriction of its right to freedom and self-conduct, especially with such a measure as a two-week campaign of self-destructive warfare, is hardly just. They do not deserve to be chained like animals. Is not justice receiving what one has deserved? 1. Are prisons always unethical? They most definately involve shackling. and a prison would be much much more restrictive than this. 2. NPO is not even having any freedoms restricted(other than their ability to wage warfare). I fail to see how their "right to freedom and self-conduct" are being encroached. No viceroy is being established or freedom of speech being limited(as NPO has forced in the surrender terms in the past). The only thing really being effected is property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I invite you to take a look at the history of CN, in particular the area around GWI and the events that followed as the to the rationale behind this terms. Indeed, because the world of CN from 3 years ago is absolutely relevant to the discussion of what to do today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen Lee Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Anyone keeping up with this thread needs to seriously re-evaluate their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coven Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) First on page 200. EDIT; Dangit. >_> lol Edited June 16, 2009 by Airikr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Indeed, because the world of CN from 3 years ago is absolutely relevant to the discussion of what to do today. You really have no idea, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold the Saxon Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Your post is very vague and full of weasel words. For instance, due process requires an established system with spelled out rights for the defendent, none exist in an international arena outside of the Admin granted rights. The main problem with your ideas is you fail to provide a mechanism for weighing what a proportional or just punishment would be, that leaves it fully open to interpretation by alliances. In order to argue the current reparations are unjust, you would need to first establish what just reparations are. IE assign a numerical value to each transgression then use that to calculate what a "just" penalty would be, otherwise its subjective and as such not universal. It is not meant to spell out a complete process to a resolution. It was meant to address the current problem with offering contradictory terms in terms of a rights-based argument. Also, your post reflects that you, or so I think, agree with what my post has said, only that it lacks the formerly mentioned process. I concur that process would be difficult to conduct. At the very least, I feel that the first thing that would need to be down is agree to a certain set of rules, by both sides, involving how terms will be laid out. Firstly, the terms would not have to be in breech of the ability of any alliance to remain a sovereign entity. It must only ask an alliance to pay indemnities which force it to bear sufficient burden to pay for the costs of this war, and some additional force past transgressions, but never in a way which would be so extreme as to prevent repayment or seriously hinder the alliance's ability to survive or maintain its sovereignty during the repayment. Finally, such terms must never demand an alliance continue allowing its regular nations, who have committed no war crimes but being regular members, to forcefully allow themselves to be attacked and looted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) @ Warrior Concept Do you? It is really quite different. edit:Screwed my quotes Edited June 16, 2009 by Ellis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 If it is so funny, please enlighten me in a PM. I'll gladly apologize for my ignorance if you prove me wrong. But not in this thread. Speaking of which, is that fact that GOONS attacked Fark now a "crime" that Pacifica has to be punished for? No, but Philosopher's masterminding of the propaganda campaign against FARK probably is. Oh wait! Did I just say that NPO is partially responsible for FARK getting a lengthy war ending in a viceroy (and lost of hundreds of members) for absolutely no reason other than that they could do it? Yes, that's what I said. I'm sure that was covered in Slayer's memoirs too - probably in between his section on curing cancer and his story about inventing the Manhatten Project by himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) 1. Are prisons always unethical? They most definately involve shackling. and a prison would be much much more restrictive than this.2. NPO is not even having any freedoms restricted(other than their ability to wage warfare). I fail to see how their "right to freedom and self-conduct" are being encroached. No viceroy is being established or freedom of speech being limited(as NPO has forced in the surrender terms in the past). The only thing really being effected is property. You are not the police, and thus have no authority to do so. If I see someone who looks kind of like someone I saw on the 11 o'clock news, I am not allowed to kidnap them and lock them in my basement. Edited June 16, 2009 by James Dahl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I invite you to take a look at the history of CN, in particular the area around GWI and the events that followed as the to the rationale behind this terms. We're scared of the big bad NPO coming back. We're so fractured that we can't be sure that we can keep NPO politically isolated after the war. That's all I'm hearing from this statement. Also glad to see that Karma has to go all the way back to GWI to get justification for their stance. Maybe they'll realize that NPO can't become a powerhouse as quickly as back then since they still will be paying reps in addition to having to fund rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Indeed, because the world of CN from 3 years ago is absolutely relevant to the discussion of what to do today. I'd have thought that in my first year, too. Hang around for a couple years and see how far down the line you find yourself looking at any given moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold the Saxon Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 1. Are prisons always unethical? They most definately involve shackling. and a prison would be much much more restrictive than this.2. NPO is not even having any freedoms restricted(other than their ability to wage warfare). I fail to see how their "right to freedom and self-conduct" are being encroached. No viceroy is being established or freedom of speech being limited(as NPO has forced in the surrender terms in the past). The only thing really being effected is property. 1. One does not ask a prisoner, after being incarcerated, to allow himself to take routine beatings for two weeks. 2. When one offers terms such as a 2-week war campaign to debilitate their financial and member stability whilst paying substantial reparations, I see a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 @ Warrior ConceptDo you? It is really quite different. edit:Screwed my quotes Please explain how. We're scared of the big bad NPO coming back. We're so fractured that we can't be sure that we can keep NPO politically isolated after the war. That's all I'm hearing from this statement. Also glad to see that Karma has to go all the way back to GWI to get justification for their stance. Maybe they'll realize that NPO can't become a powerhouse as quickly as back then since they still will be paying reps in addition to having to fund rebuilding. Yeah, that's basically the point. No one wants NPO coming back super strong and super fast right away. Congratulations, you get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Anyone keeping up with this thread needs to seriously re-evaluate their life. You have opted into such a re-evaluation merely by your presence. Now, tell me about your mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 While I won't exactly log dump I'll post a few recent quotes. The connection is still there despite the friction and of course the obvious want for one side to help the other. Honestly the wars actions are somewhat irrelevant towards some long standing friendships.<Loucifer> Polars are in a hard spot, with treaties to both sides of this war. They are doing the honorable thing and not engaging offensively * Litha licks Polaris <Litha[NPO]> Polaris is our brother <Kean[NPO]> o/ polaris <GoldenAura> Yea i hope we can work stuff out with polar too I too had some logs that prove that Polar and Pacifica are no longer brothers. Sadly, the Tattler was deleted, and the logs went with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrarn Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 NPO: I have the right to kill anyone I want. Karma: S'okay, sunshine. We've got the right to kill you too. NPO: But, but, that's so unfair! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! You're not the police! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! How dare you treat us the same way we treat everyone else? WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Please explain how. I would say at the very least, [OOC] The way the game works is hugely different (wonders etc)[/OOC] and the fact that it's much eaisier to rebuild, but then on the other hand, I'd say warfare is more distructive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 We're scared of the big bad NPO coming back. We're so fractured that we can't be sure that we can keep NPO politically isolated after the war. That's all I'm hearing from this statement. Also glad to see that Karma has to go all the way back to GWI to get justification for their stance. Maybe they'll realize that NPO can't become a powerhouse as quickly as back then since they still will be paying reps in addition to having to fund rebuilding. Yes. The NPO will come back and take the alliances that attacked it down one by one, even if it takes years. Glad to know that you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 You are not the police, and thus have no authority to do so.If I see someone who looks kind of like someone I saw on the 11 o'clock news, I am not allowed to kidnap them and lock them in my basement. That's another thing. My tenure here has yielded some very interesting insights into the nature of authority. Work your way into an authority position and sit there for a while. The perspective is fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 NPO: I have the right to kill anyone I want.Karma: S'okay, sunshine. We've got the right to kill you too. NPO: But, but, that's so unfair! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! You're not the police! WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! How dare you treat us the same way we treat everyone else? WAAUUUGGGGHHHHH! Well done, your imitation of the entire NPO is uncanny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykep Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) The 200th page of this post is brought to you by Uncle Sam Edited June 16, 2009 by mykep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenzilla Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 Well done, your imitation of the entire NPO is uncanny Or o/o/o/o/o/ That's good too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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