Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[scythegfx]

Okay, brownies are done, anyone want any? they're nice and chewy!

[Roadie]

Prior to the war, the NPO had more than 90% of it's nations in War Mode - it took concerted effort and obediant nations to go below that mark. It's not hard to get 90% of your nations into war mode and as such, is not a term that is impossible to complete. Just because the NPO doesn't like it isn't just cause for not complying. At this time, the NPO holds the keys to their own jail cell - they can receive peace whenever they are ready to end this war and accept the terms infront of them.

They didn't all get to war mode in a day. A 700 member alliance does not move as a 20 or even 100 member alliance does. Karma has a hard time getting 18 alliance leaders on the same page for these peace terms and they expect NPO to get 700 members on the same page in short order, this just isn't reasonable. In my opinion, it's the only thing unreasonable in these terms.

NPO has stated in this thread that they have sent orders to many of their members to cycle out of PM. These mmembers have not listened, that's why they can't get to that 90% number. They've provided a reasonable explanation for it and it's something that can be worked around if Karma genuinely wants to work through it and not just pout about getting their way. I think they do want to end this war and I think they will, they just haven't shown it as yet.

/inb4 the rabble about kicking out members who don't follow orders.

I agree with that. Any members of my alliance that weren't following orders, I would want them gone also. However, I can understand NPO leadership not wanting to throw members to the wolves who have been loyal to them for several years. Truth be told, I think most alliance leaders can understand that.

The simple solution is to find a way to work around that 90% number. Either by lowering it to something that can be reached without them having to expel members who have been loyal for years or simply countering the NPO counter with another rep number. 300K and 10 billion or whatever.

NPO is willing and wanting to talk, they were turned down for some reason. Which looks to be because karma want's to keep them at war for a while yet. Either by ending the talks or instisting the terms include more war. What that is needed for that can't be accomplished via reps I do not understand. The only reason I can see is that they want more war. If it's to delay the rebuilding process, that can be done with reps.

Unsure,

Roadie

[Gandroff]

Like I've said before, one single nation can pay a trillion dollars in reps given enough time. So there is no reason the NPO's hundreds can pay off these requested reps. It might take longer than you like, but thats why it is a punishment.

Do you really think someone who is so determined to see us die will give us even a reasonable amount of time?

And "NPO's hundreds" will be significantly less. I suggest you read this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1609360

[Commander Cato]

You realize we'll rebuild eventually anyway, right?

Good luck with that NPO

[Bob Janova]

Do you really think someone who is so determined to see us die will give us even a reasonable amount of time?

Attacking people during surrender terms might be in your copybook, but it's not in Karma's. If they wanted you to die, there would be no terms (and no individual terms either for that matter).

[Branimir]

As you so rightly point out, the Codex doesn't apply since we are not at war with you. Since most of the alliances that are are in a defensive war, much of it still does not apply even projecting my own reaction in their position. Reparations for a defensive war are entirely reasonable, and I expect you have done that much damage to the alliances that you forced to enter against you.

Intriguing.

So these are reasonable terms? Take note kids! Also, nobody here is so naive to think our "reps" will go only to the nations that can spin that they are defending themselves from us in this war so why dont you just drop that part in your post and save some forum space.

And yes, I am a strong believer in second chances. Witness my position in the Polar war (and the modifications to terms Grämlins gave) and here in the IRON front. NPO are perhaps the only alliance that I would be prepared to support terms on this sort of scale against, because you have already used your second chance, and shown that what you do with it is go for two years of aggression, oppression and despotism. It is not fear, but self-interest and the interests of alliances everywhere, to make sure you do not come back quickly.

You do keep repeating that "second chance" like a broken record, don't you?

You do not know what you are talking about. NPO in the GPW 1 was not given a second chance out of mercy, it got it by the fact that the opposition collapsed on its own.

And what second chance did we got? To live and breathe again? Yes we must not give the ebil NPO a chance to live and breathe again, that would be immoral. We must stomp the living lights out of them crippling them for all ages,.....Bob you are sillier then I ever thought you were.

Gremling, I do so recall you being a part of "our" "aggressive, oppressive and despotic" "hegemony" for QUITE some time. You did quite well as I recall by our side, reaping nicely benefits of Pax Pacifica by collecting those stats in peace and calm.

How could you do that by our side, while we were so aggressive and despotic and whatnot? You should have disowned us two years ago then and fight the good fight then. Right?

Oh lol who am I kidding now lolol.

I would never have supported attacking you. That would be as bad as you. But since you attacked, and are now getting beaten, I think you are the one alliance that deserves tough terms.

So summary.

We defended our sovereignty from spying activities. We are being defeated in our war.

We are now given harsh terms with some just ridiculous, unacceptable clauses. Alliances that usually preach that such are not good for the community, will now promote such terms and shoot themselves in the foot. CN as usual.

[Sephiroth]

You do not know what you are talking about. NPO in the GPW 1 was not given a second chance out of mercy, it got it by the fact that the opposition collapsed on its own.

Now you expect that to happen again? Your not helping NPO's case much right now, mostly just reminding people why they don't want to give NPO an easy peace.

[mythos1453]

If Karma is as united as you claim it to be, then you have nothing to fear.

If after this war and the destruction we've been through - you are still afraid of us then someone needs to retake

CN 101...

And most importantly:

Karma's main argument was the destruction that NPO brought in planet Bob. The impossibly vast terms that were imposed by us to others and our arrogance. Ihmo Karma just showed they true face...

There is a big difference between revenge and justice...google it

[wickedj]

We are.

I shouldve included an exception in my previous post...

[Gandroff]

Attacking people during surrender terms might be in your copybook, but it's not in Karma's. If they wanted you to die, there would be no terms (and no individual terms either for that matter).

Do I have to get out those logs and bold all the places were Karma, in more of less words, said "These negotiations are over?"

Many of the alliances still don't want to give us peace, so they went with the next best thing. Give us impossible terms and make it look like they are the good guys while they have an excuse to keep killing us. If they truly wanted to give us peace they negotiate the terms. Whoever made up this insane idea that peace negotiations are no longer negotiations should take a long look at his own thoughts.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Gandroff

[Ragashingo]

They didn't all get to war mode in a day. A 700 member alliance does not move as a 20 or even 100 member alliance does. Karma has a hard time getting 18 alliance leaders on the same page for these peace terms and they expect NPO to get 700 members on the same page in short order, this just isn't reasonable. In my opinion, it's the only thing unreasonable in these terms.

There is a big difference there. On one hand you have a group of 18 in different alliances that want different things. On the other you have a group of members who are expected to follow the wants of their leaders.

NPO has stated in this thread that they have sent orders to many of their members to cycle out of PM. These mmembers have not listened, that's why they can't get to that 90% number. They've provided a reasonable explanation for it and it's something that can be worked around if Karma genuinely wants to work through it and not just pout about getting their way. I think they do want to end this war and I think they will, they just haven't shown it as yet.

The only thing I've really seen any creditable NPOer say was that some of their members are away from their nations and can't quickly carry out such an order. Not that they are refusing to. Surely those that are currently away will check in within 20 days and follow their orders.

/inb4 the rabble about kicking out members who don't follow orders.

I agree with that. Any members of my alliance that weren't following orders, I would want them gone also. However, I can understand NPO leadership not wanting to throw members to the wolves who have been loyal to them for several years. Truth be told, I think most alliance leaders can understand that.

You sometimes have to make hard choices during a war. If a member won't follow orders to save the alliance why should either Karma or the NPO expect them to follow orders to keep the peace or pay their share of the reparations?

The simple solution is to find a way to work around that 90% number. Either by lowering it to something that can be reached without them having to expel members who have been loyal for years or simply countering the NPO counter with another rep number. 300K and 10 billion or whatever.

NPO is willing and wanting to talk, they were turned down for some reason. Which looks to be because karma want's to keep them at war for a while yet. Either by ending the talks or instisting the terms include more war. What that is needed for that can't be accomplished via reps I do not understand. The only reason I can see is that they want more war. If it's to delay the rebuilding process, that can be done with reps.

The war clause is to make sure NPO banks don't simply sit in peace mode only to come out after the war is over and pay off the reps extremely quickly. Now I agree that maybe a compromise needs to be reached, but remember the NPO are the losers here. They shouldn't get what they want (essentially to keep their bank nations out of the war) just because they want it.

[Branimir]

Now you expect that to happen again? Your not helping NPO's case much right now, mostly just reminding people why they don't want to give NPO an easy peace.

I am not expecting anything. People do not need to give us peace at all. There is no rule in stone that they should.

What I am though doing, is just calling some resident mortal high ground saints on their double, contradicting and as such BS standards.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Branimir

[Bob Janova]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your delusion, to be honest, Branimir.

I didn't actually say whether these reps are reasonable, just that the idea of reps for defending is reasonable. The judgement as to what is reasonable is really between the alliances on that front. This is a very unusual situation (an aggressor with a long history of doing damage, in a fully nuclear war) and the question of rep numbers is not clear. I think they are on the high side myself.

GW1 has been argued to death elsewhere. The fact is though, it doesn't matter why you got a second chance, you still used it to be an oppressive hegemonic ruler of the world, and made things difficult for a lot of people (many of whom are now fighting you). That's hardly a good precedent to set if you want to get a third chance next time you lose.

Gremling, I do so recall you being a part of "our" "aggressive, oppressive and despotic" "hegemony" for QUITE some time. You did quite well as I recall by our side, reaping nicely benefits of Pax Pacifica by collecting those stats in peace and calm.

We were part of a hegemonic bloc, yes, against my better judgement and because our friends at TOP, OG, FOK and MHA convinced us it was a good idea. The benefit to us was pretty minimal though, unless you're saying you'd have rolled us had we not wished to sign up. We were not 'by your side', we did not participate in most Continuum aggressive actions and petitioned strongly internally against most of them, and we can collect stats everywhere.

How could you do that by our side, while we were so aggressive and despotic and whatnot? You should have disowned us two years ago then and fight the good fight then. Right?

Well, we did enter GW3. After that we realised that fighting the good fight is pointless if you will lose (as anyone attacking the hegemony will always do), and then we got close with TOP who convinced us that you aren't so bad after all, and then we didn't even want to fight you any more. (And if you notice, we haven't fought you now, either.)

We defended our sovereignty from spying activities.

lol

We are now given harsh terms with some just ridiculous, unacceptable clauses. Alliances that usually preach that such are not good for the community, will now promote such terms and shoot themselves in the foot. CN as usual.

Usually it is not the NPO, or an aggressor in general. It is like the difference in reaction to IAA disbanding and GOONS disbanding. The NPO has been almost uniquely damaging to the community and therefore is more deserving of harsh terms than alliances in the past, or most cases in the future.

[Ragashingo]

Do you really think someone who is so determined to see us die will give us even a reasonable amount of time?

They don't want to see you die.

And "NPO's hundreds" will be significantly less. I suggest you read this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...p;#entry1609360

The NPO will still have hundreds of nations correct? Even the small ones can help pay off the reparations by aid chaining.

[Gandroff]

The war clause is to make sure NPO banks don't simply sit in peace mode only to come out after the war is over and pay off the reps extremely quickly. Now I agree that maybe a compromise needs to be reached, but remember the NPO are the losers here. They shouldn't get what they want (essentially to keep their bank nations out of the war) just because they want it.

Do you really think it would be possible to pay of such reps "quickly?"

Even if you didn't apply any restrictions it would still take some time for us to pay them off and rebuild. If Karma is as strong as you say it is you should have no problem taking care of us if we do anything "evul" again anyway.

And we clearly said in the op that we lost.

[Gandroff]

The NPO will still have hundreds of nations correct? Even the small ones can help pay off the reparations by aid chaining.

You assume our small nations have enough money to even keep out of bill-lock.

They don't want to see you die.

Since it's pointless to argue i'll leave you with your own thoughts there.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Gandroff

[Heracles the Great]

They didn't all get to war mode in a day. A 700 member alliance does not move as a 20 or even 100 member alliance does. Karma has a hard time getting 18 alliance leaders on the same page for these peace terms and they expect NPO to get 700 members on the same page in short order, this just isn't reasonable. In my opinion, it's the only thing unreasonable in these terms.

NPO has stated in this thread that they have sent orders to many of their members to cycle out of PM. These mmembers have not listened, that's why they can't get to that 90% number. They've provided a reasonable explanation for it and it's something that can be worked around if Karma genuinely wants to work through it and not just pout about getting their way. I think they do want to end this war and I think they will, they just haven't shown it as yet.

/inb4 the rabble about kicking out members who don't follow orders.

I agree with that. Any members of my alliance that weren't following orders, I would want them gone also. However, I can understand NPO leadership not wanting to throw members to the wolves who have been loyal to them for several years. Truth be told, I think most alliance leaders can understand that.

The simple solution is to find a way to work around that 90% number. Either by lowering it to something that can be reached without them having to expel members who have been loyal for years or simply countering the NPO counter with another rep number. 300K and 10 billion or whatever.

NPO is willing and wanting to talk, they were turned down for some reason. Which looks to be because karma want's to keep them at war for a while yet. Either by ending the talks or instisting the terms include more war. What that is needed for that can't be accomplished via reps I do not understand. The only reason I can see is that they want more war. If it's to delay the rebuilding process, that can be done with reps.

Unsure,

Roadie

1. If the term was removed, they would definately have no problem getting all their nations out of peacemode - I imagine it'd take less than a couple days to pull it off.

2. If they're loyal only when they're curbstomping other alliances, then they are not loyal members. If they are too selfish to leave PM and sacrafice their infra for the good of the alliance, then they have no place in any alliance and are nothing more than opportunitic vultures in my opinion. And that's assuming you believe the words that come from an IO....

3. I see that clause as something that's very easy to achieve. If the nations were obedient enough to hit PM int he first place, then they should be obedient enough to hit War Mode. If the Karma coalition is concrete on that term, and I see no reason for them not to be, then the NPO must make a decision. Sacrafice the entire alliance because a few nations are too selfish to leave PM and take a beating, or sacrafice the selfish members who care not for the alliance as a whole and do what's right for the alliance as a whole.

[Heracles the Great]

Do you really think it would be possible to pay of such reps "quickly?"

Even if you didn't apply any restrictions it would still take some time for us to pay them off and rebuild. If Karma is as strong as you say it is you should have no problem taking care of us if we do anything "evul" again anyway.

And we clearly said in the op that we lost.

Here's some rough math off the top of my head

175 nations using 3 aid slots can pay off 300,000 tech in 110-120 days (approx 4 months)

700 nations using 1 aid slot can pay off 7,000,000,000 cash in 30-40 days (approx 1 month)

So define "quickly" and maybe we can go from there

[Ragashingo]

Intriguing.

So these are reasonable terms? Take note kids! Also, nobody here is so naive to think our "reps" will go only to the nations that can spin that they are defending themselves from us in this war so why dont you just drop that part in your post and save some forum space.

They are reasonable terms for an alliance that has committed the crimes yours has. As no other alliance comes close to the NPO I can't ever see terms this harsh being used on anyone ever again.

You do keep repeating that "second chance" like a broken record, don't you?

You do not know what you are talking about. NPO in the GPW 1 was not given a second chance out of mercy, it got it by the fact that the opposition collapsed on its own.

And what second chance did we got? To live and breathe again? Yes we must not give the ebil NPO a chance to live and breathe again, that would be immoral. We must stomp the living lights out of them crippling them for all ages,.....Bob you are sillier then I ever thought you were.

Crippling for all ages would be what you attempted to do to FAN. These reps, even if they take a year to pay, do have a definite end.

As for GW1. You guys did get a second chance whether the opposition was collapsing or not. Even what was left of the coluetion could have pulled you guys down with them, but they showed mercy and let you off with an apology.

So summary.

We defended our sovereignty from spying activities. We are being defeated in our war.

We are now given harsh terms with some just ridiculous, unacceptable clauses. Alliances that usually preach that such are not good for the community, will now promote such terms and shoot themselves in the foot. CN as usual.

You're not even close.

[Gandroff]

1. If the term was removed, they would definately have no problem getting all their nations out of peacemode - I imagine it'd take less than a couple days to pull it off.

Let's place a bet on that shall we? I don't suppose you have ever ran a 700 member alliance and tried to, almost literally, beat activity out of people.

3. I see that clause as something that's very easy to achieve. If the nations were obedient enough to hit PM int he first place, then they should be obedient enough to hit War Mode. If the Karma coalition is concrete on that term, and I see no reason for them not to be, then the NPO must make a decision. Sacrafice the entire alliance because a few nations are too selfish to leave PM and take a beating, or sacrafice the selfish members who care not for the alliance as a whole and do what's right for the alliance as a whole.

These members aren't active members. We didn't give an order per say to go to peace. We told them they were able to go to peace mode if they needed to recuperate and a few nations took that to mean they could stay in peace. Since they aren't very active members and don't want to see their nations destroyed when they can't fight back they have stayed in peace mode.

[muffasamini]

The only thing I've really seen any creditable NPOer say was that some of their members are away from their nations and can't quickly carry out such an order. Not that they are refusing to. Surely those that are currently away will check in within 20 days and follow their orders.

Ok, even then, were then supposed to take 34 days in war, another month, and still be able to pay 7billion and 300k tech? No. "But we said in the clause that we would lower them if you couldnt pay," because Karma has shown the ability to allways be faithful to their word and be kind if we cant physically accomplish something? Also no.

[Gandroff]

Here's some rough math off the top of my head

175 nations using 3 aid slots can pay off 300,000 tech in 110-120 days (approx 4 months)

700 nations using 1 aid slot can pay off 7,000,000,000 cash in 30-40 days (approx 1 month)

So define "quickly" and maybe we can go from there

Again, you are assuming all of those nations are active and still able to give aid. Many, many nations can't even pay their bills at this point.

[Ragashingo]

Do you really think it would be possible to pay of such reps "quickly?"

Even if you didn't apply any restrictions it would still take some time for us to pay them off and rebuild. If Karma is as strong as you say it is you should have no problem taking care of us if we do anything "evul" again anyway.

And we clearly said in the op that we lost.

Why should anyone want to take care of a problem later when it can be done now?

[Gandroff]

The only thing I've really seen any creditable NPOer say was that some of their members are away from their nations and can't quickly carry out such an order. Not that they are refusing to. Surely those that are currently away will check in within 20 days and follow their orders.

You would be surprised to learn how many people log in, collect, and leave without looking at anything else.

[Branimir]

I didn't actually say whether these reps are reasonable

.

You said enough already, Bob

WTH are you trying to backpedal now?

LOL

GW1 has been argued to death elsewhere.

You keep bringing it up, so to suit your argument though.

The fact is though, it doesn't matter why you got a second chance, you still used it to be an oppressive hegemonic ruler of the world, and made things difficult for a lot of people (many of whom are now fighting you).

Yes, we are the devil incarnated responsible for all the evils ever done on this planet. I wonder how long it will take for this mantra to become hallow sounding as the one from the beginning of the war going: "We will not issue draconian surrender terms, we are building a different and better world."

We were part of a hegemonic bloc, yes, against my better judgement

Oh it must have been tough for you, going against yourself for more then a year,....poor baby.

and because our friends at TOP, OG, FOK and MHA convinced us it was a good idea. The benefit to us was pretty minimal though, unless you're saying you'd have rolled us had we not wished to sign up. We were not 'by your side', we did not participate in most Continuum aggressive actions and petitioned strongly internally against most of them, and we can collect stats everywhere.

Yes, you were by our side in a block, but not. You acted as allies, but didnt. You opposed but did nothing.

Bob, whatever, lol.

Usually it is not the NPO, or an aggressor in general. It is like the difference in reaction to IAA disbanding and GOONS disbanding. The NPO has been almost uniquely damaging to the community and therefore is more deserving of harsh terms than alliances in the past, or most cases in the future.

We are the devil, we almost killed the world. Mantra, mantra mantra.

Still does not change the fact you don't really believe in your codex, only pretend to when it suits you.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Branimir