Memoirs: MCXA, Vox Populi, and the true meaning of loyalty.

[Gatherum]

Yeah, Gatherum to be honest we had you pegged within two days. While we certainly enjoyed your company, your IPs linked all over the place, and pretty well everyone in gov/administration believed you were one of our Vox friends. You were also nowhere near any influential position, sorry.

We still think you're fun though.

Well, I guess Fran has the right to rub it in now.

I blame my goddamned internet.

Makes me wonder though exactly why you guys let me stay there.

Oh well. It was still fun.

[Valerius]

I like to think my moral compass is in particularly good nick. It always has been, if I do say so myself. This is why I rarely back down once I have made up my mind on a particular issue.

Whilst I do not believe that the ends always justify the means, I have concluded that in this case, they do. Most of you were quick to decry Vox and spent most of our existence denouncing us and our methods. However this mindset seems to have changed with the advent of Karma, which would indicate that Vox's methods have gained at least some kind of acceptance from the establishment. I would like to say that if this community is moving towards a post-Pacifican political structure, then those who fought for it, those who supported it from the beginning, and those who risked everything for it, should be congratulated and respected by those who have recently picked up the sword.

Leave Francesca alone. She did what she thought and knew to be right, and actions like hers are what have saved this game from the 'Pax Pacifica'.

[Francesca]

It is my understanding that at one point in time the co-councilors were appointed(As were a number of members of the HC?)

EDIT: I TOTALLY CALLED YOU AS A VOX SPY.

The Co-Chancellors never used to be voted in at all, but remained in power until they were impeached or chose to leave. As for the HC, two High Councillors were appointed by the Co-Chancellors.

I've been forbidden to post in this thread, and that ban was raised only recently. I can't be bothered replying to all the posts that need replying to now. If anyone has questions, I'd be happy to take pms.

[DogeWilliam]

There is no tl;dr. Read the thread if you want to know my story, don’t read my thread if you don’t want to know my story.

tl;dr please.

[Luis Quezada]

tl;dr please.

QFT

[DogeWilliam]

Ok, I decided to read some of your lengthy post. I agree with the opinion that spying is wrong simply on an ethical level. But, on the level of reality, you came out of it the winner. Thus, the thing that interests me is not your past actions, but how people will treat you in the future. I don't see how you can ever be considered a loyal member to any alliance again. Does VE trust you? The only problem with getting away with a spy action is that you need to still keep it secret. We all know now that you are a spy, fair to label you that or not.

Edited June 5, 2009 by DogeWilliam

[Epik High]

In these elections, I also ran for government, and campaigned for an increased level of transparency in government, and more of our democratic rights. I exploded my way onto High Council, because I won the trust and respect of the general membership by campaigning on issues that were important to them.

I think the biggest problem I would have had when deciding whether to spy on my alliance or not would be being a democratically elected leader, especially on issues of democracy and transparency. It would be a huge betrayal of the trust of the people who voted for me.

Do you feel any (IC) remorse or regret? Sorry, I haven't trawled through this entire thread, just the OP.

[enderland]

Yeah, Gatherum to be honest we had you pegged within two days. While we certainly enjoyed your company, your IPs linked all over the place, and pretty well everyone in gov/administration believed you were one of our Vox friends. You were also nowhere near any influential position, sorry.

We still think you're fun though.

You knowingly harbored someone who you knew as a vox spy?

Brilliant political move.

[joracy]

Because we seekritly loved vox of course.

Or it might have been that although we all thought that, the evidence was very light. Had you guys been leaking Screenshots onto the OWF nonstop we might have found something, but we only actually found two leaked items, both simply quoted text, and I don't believe it was strong enough to warrant anything. All we knew is that you had an uncanny knowledge of CN, was rather fond of vox and had some oddities in your IPs. We were all pretty sure it was you, but we didn't have enough to remove you.

[enderland]

Because we seekritly loved vox of course.

Or it might have been that although we all thought that, the evidence was very light. Had you guys been leaking Screenshots onto the OWF nonstop we might have found something, but we only actually found two leaked items, both simply quoted text, and I don't believe it was strong enough to warrant anything. All we knew is that you had an uncanny knowledge of CN, was rather fond of vox and had some oddities in your IPs. We were all pretty sure it was you, but we didn't have enough to remove you.

Ok, I was never in vox, not sure why you are using "you" so much

Also, what I quoted makes it seem like you (ODN as a whole) knew quite well and strongly that Gatherum was vox (well his pseudoname there).

[Francesca]

I think the biggest problem I would have had when deciding whether to spy on my alliance or not would be being a democratically elected leader, especially on issues of democracy and transparency. It would be a huge betrayal of the trust of the people who voted for me.

Do you feel any (IC) remorse or regret? Sorry, I haven't trawled through this entire thread, just the OP.

No, I don't feel regret about what I did. As for betraying the people who voted for me, I would never have done anything to hurt them or MCXA.

As for the people who say that they will never trust me again, I can understand your viewpoint, however you must understand that I have some very close friends and these people do indeed trust me. Hell, I've been offered government positions in sanctioned alliances, even after announcing my Vox status. On an individual level, I've been trusted with some pretty major secrets by various acquaintances of mine, and they know that I will never betray them.

[ModusOperandi]

Friend,

You did what you thought was right while in the thick of tumultuous political upheavals and systematic problems that festered in the previous government's enterprise. Never be ashamed, I'd rather you be proud.

I saw much of myself in your story as I went through a similar experience in the NADC two years ago; never look back mate, the uninformed may label you as a traitor because they are just that.. uninformed.. many people choose to be ignorant.

With that being said, I really enjoyed your read; thanks.

[Luis Quezada]

On an individual level, I've been trusted with some pretty major secrets by various acquaintances of mine, and they know that I will never betray them.

Well that guess that depends on what you consider as betrayal right? ^^;

[joracy]

I wasn't referring to you, I just forgot to quote it...like...I uhhh did here.

Anyways, like I said, we had a good idea it was him, but nothing near concrete(As; as far as I can tell, they never actually did a whole lot. Their plan wasn't really to spy on us, just legally gain our trust and try and influence us. He never actually did anything bad, except be friendly to vox and be a reroll. There was no "proof" he was vox, and without proof, or him actually doing something, we weren't going to kick him.) So we didn't do anything except watch him closely.

[Epik High]

No, I don't feel regret about what I did. As for betraying the people who voted for me, I would never have done anything to hurt them or MCXA.

As for the people who say that they will never trust me again, I can understand your viewpoint, however you must understand that I have some very close friends and these people do indeed trust me. Hell, I've been offered government positions in sanctioned alliances, even after announcing my Vox status. On an individual level, I've been trusted with some pretty major secrets by various acquaintances of mine, and they know that I will never betray them.

I don't know you and don't expect to be placed in a situation in which I'd have to assess my level of trust of you. I'm not saying that people won't trust you ever again, as trust in CN (or whatever diluted form of it exists in online interactions) is from my experience easily gained. However, I think the job offers you mention say more about the alliances than how trustworthy you are.

Anyways, thanks for the answer, I find your reflections on your actions and your concept of betrayal/ends justifying the means interesting, to say the least.

[Francesca]

Well that guess that depends on what you consider as betrayal right? ^^;

Correct, but I consider it betrayal to act against their interests and expose their secrets.

[Roadie]

No, I don't feel regret about what I did. As for betraying the people who voted for me, I would never have done anything to hurt them or MCXA.

As for the people who say that they will never trust me again, I can understand your viewpoint, however you must understand that I have some very close friends and these people do indeed trust me. Hell, I've been offered government positions in sanctioned alliances, even after announcing my Vox status. On an individual level, I've been trusted with some pretty major secrets by various acquaintances of mine, and they know that I will never betray them.

In regards to the bolded section, is this to say that you didn't betray them because you didn't do anything to hurt them or that you did betray them, but not in a way that hurt them?

[Roadie]

Correct, but I consider it betrayal to act against their interests and expose their secrets.

So you didn't expose any secrets, I'm guessing that means?

[Francesca]

In regards to the bolded section, is this to say that you didn't betray them because you didn't do anything to hurt them or that you did betray them, but not in a way that hurt them?

I didn't betray them, because I didn't do anything to hurt them, although that is a very short way to put it.

[Haflinger]

I didn't betray them, because I didn't do anything to hurt them, although that is a very short way to put it.

So by "anything to hurt them" you don't include "fighting a war against"?

[Francesca]

So by "anything to hurt them" you don't include "fighting a war against"?

I was referring to my time in MCXA, not when I joined VE.

Nevertheless, MCXA declared war on VE, not vice-versa. Additionally, the two MCXA chancellors and their Minister of Finance attacked me, not the other way round. I did not declare on any MCXA nations.

[Haflinger]

I was referring to my time in MCXA, not when I joined VE.

Fair enough.

Nevertheless, MCXA declared war on VE, not vice-versa. Additionally, the two MCXA chancellors and their Minister of Finance attacked me, not the other way round. I did not declare on any MCXA nations.

These things are all true. However, I would suggest that based on my conversations with MCXA leadership, they certainly felt that your actions while in MCXA were not what one would describe as beneficial.

You would probably have been much, much better off leaving when you decided that you did not approve of the direction that MCXA was taking. There's no dishonour in losing a political battle and deciding to leave.

[nc1701]

Well I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but as I read it I became quite angry in general. I'm not even sure who I'm angry at anymore, so forgive me if this post doesn't fill any preconceived views of my politics. Fact is whenever people talk about things they don't know about they speculate and make untrue assumptions, those same assumptions are fueled by people who do know something altering the truth to fit their own ideals, desire for power, popularity, or attention. Then the masses feed on it, quite interesting to watch if you aren't invested in those happenings yourself.

Let's clear some random things up....

Argument: Francesca betrayed MCXA by co-operating with Vox Populi

False

While I do not have access to her communication with Vox Populi based on my experience while in MCXA I have no reason to believe this was not to MCXA's benefit. The information went both ways as she had access to a great deal of Vox intelligence as well. Intelligence that could have been used to great effect to position MCXA to survive the war and come out in a very strong position if the Chancellors had believed her. It is my opinion that her intentions were to help the MCXA, and all in all she actually did help MCXA and could have helped a great deal more if she were not so heavily handicapped by the government which did not trust her. Now that does not change the fact that she violated all of our trust, but I do not think she was a traitor. Only a severely flawed patriot.

Argument: According to Francesca being offered govt positions in alliances means you are trustworthy and credible.

False

Most alliance governments are totally incompetent, and made up of incompetent people who will happily offer up government positions to anybody who seems like a "good guy", yes even sanctioned alliances. If you happen to be female, highly active, and willing to flirt a bit it becomes even easier. Utter incompetents like Cadie managed to get in MCXA High Council while we were the #3 alliance in the game. Being offered government positions in non-elite alliances is hardly something to be massively proud of, or terribly difficult to achieve if you set your mind to it.

Claim: Political parties were against the MCXA Charter

False

The MCXA Charter makes no mention of political parties, it simply delegates running elections to the Chancellors. In the past Chancellors had always placed no political parties as a rule on election threads. iirc no such rule was posted on the announcement thread for the election in question.

Argument: Campaigning within a Democratic system to make changes and planning the campaign for those changes in back rooms is betraying your constituent.

False

Any Democracy is based on providing arguments for your point of view in such a way that a majority of people will support you and your ideas. To do this you must plan and co-ordinate with friends so that you can provide a stronger more compelling argument. Every RL politician has a circle of advisers, pollsters, and volunteers who help them run a campaign, be it a run for office or the building of support for an important bill. This is not traitorous in RL, and it is not traitorous in CN.

Claim: Francesca is just trying to get attention

Partially True

Memoirs are written by vain people, and people who need the book money. Obviously the second does not apply here.

Why? As Francesca has made clear this only creates more enemies for her, but I think she feels entitled to glory in victory. In an ordinary victory taking some time to claim your victory is fine, but this is no normal victory. Vox Populi turned itself into the same manipulative propaganda machine NPO was, this was necessary but not glorious. To use the movie V for Vendetta as an example, V did bring about a revolution that saved Britain, but he to do that he became a monster. The victory was Evey's not V's, it couldn't be V's because V in the end was no different than those he opposed, but he died and gave his struggle to Evey, just as Vox has disbanded, yet given us a great gift. It had to be this way, if we hail Vox as our heros then we cannot fully cleanse our world.

Francesca doesn't understand this, and so she keeps trying to get the attention she naively thinks she deserves. Quickly this has turned from an innocent snatch at glory, to a head long attempt to get some kind of recognition and attention, good or bad regardless of how much old material gets dug up, or where dirt lands be it on her friends or her enemies.

Claim: The Sweet Oblivion are a group of friends absolutely loyal to each other as friends and so it was only logical for them all to move together

False

At least several of TSO's current members were aware of and had privately endorsed (but chose not to participate in) the campaign against TFS, and at one point a current TSO member was actively working to brute force hack Ololiqui's forum account so that a resignation could be posted since sam was refusing to allow an impeachment (I had nothing to do with this, but the individual in question told me they were brute forcing the account and considering posting a resignation once they got it). Sam finally allowed the impeachment to go ahead before this person's program was completed and as far as I know they ceased when Celt was made Chancellor, because we never spoke of it again.

TSO is hardly the band of brothers they claim to be, a few of their members are, but most are leeches and hangers on who just followed the bandwagon because they (correctly) realized TSO would end up doing better than MCXA. I look forward for drama there, it should be at least as fun to watch as MCXA drama was.

I was the person who originally contacted Jenn about what happened, had her explain it to me and persuaded you to invite her into our channel to discuss it more and tell us more about it.

Not true, you continue to exaggerate your involvement in events. Francesca's involvement in early pre-TSO splinter events was far less than she suggests, even the propaganda campaign against TFS pre-dated her involvement by about a week, and she was only brought in due to possessing useful screen shots. Francesca was not significantly involved in the core of MCXA drama until after she was elected to government in the post-TSO period.

The TSO idea was really only about 3 days old when it was leaked, I dont know wether the P91 boards got deleted yet, but their creation date should point to that fact

The forums were approximately 2-3 days old when I was alerted to their existence and investigated them. Not sure how relevant it is to anyone, but I can verify this as being completely true.

[Gopherbashi]

Claim: Political parties were against the MCXA Charter

False

The MCXA Charter makes no mention of political parties, it simply delegates running elections to the Chancellors. In the past Chancellors had always placed no political parties as a rule on election threads. iirc no such rule was posted on the announcement thread for the election in question.

For clarification (since this is an iirc situation), a prohibition on political parties was announced for our March elections, and the thread containing that announcement was given as an election rules link for the April elections. Political parties are not expressly forbidden within our Charter, although legislation passed by our government does uphold this prohibition and provides a mechanism of judicial appeal for those who are accused of violating election law.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[SunnyInc]

Fact is whenever people talk about things they don't know about they speculate and make untrue assumptions, those same assumptions are fueled by people who do know something altering the truth to fit their own ideals, desire for power, popularity, or attention. Then the masses feed on it, quite interesting to watch if you aren't invested in those happenings yourself.

Claim: The Sweet Oblivion are a group of friends absolutely loyal to each other as friends and so it was only logical for them all to move together

False

At least several of TSO's current members were aware of and had privately endorsed (but chose not to participate in) the campaign against TFS, and at one point a current TSO member was actively working to brute force hack Ololiqui's forum account so that a resignation could be posted since sam was refusing to allow an impeachment (I had nothing to do with this, but the individual in question told me they were brute forcing the account and considering posting a resignation once they got it). Sam finally allowed the impeachment to go ahead before this person's program was completed and as far as I know they ceased when Celt was made Chancellor, because we never spoke of it again.

TSO is hardly the band of brothers they claim to be, a few of their members are, but most are leeches and hangers on who just followed the bandwagon because they (correctly) realized TSO would end up doing better than MCXA. I look forward for drama there, it should be at least as fun to watch as MCXA drama was.

I hardly think you are in a position to make an informed comment about our community.