New Pacific Order Reps Race

[bbrownso]

Lets just face it Karma doesn't want peace at all, what they want is to crush NPO to the ground,to avoid a future threat.

And what me disturbs is not that fact, but the hypocrisy not to admit it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that all of Karma wants to crush the NPO but the great weight of evidence supports a presumption that there is strong support for that position among the alliances collectively known as Karma.

The fact that Karma wished to avoid admitting their hypocrisy no longer disturbs me. CN is full of people who don't have the balls to say the truth because they're scared of the political ramifications. I mean, how else could these righteous warriors sit by so long as the NPO "destroyed" all those poor "victims." They obviously didn't want to deal with those ramifications so they bided their time and waited till they could assure their victory. Smart strategically, but now they really shouldn't be allowed to play the "savior" card without being called on their allowing the "transgressions" of Pacifica to go on for so long. It's a sad sad Planet Bob we now live on.

Clarification for those with short attention spans: IF Pacifica was so evil, why did all these wonderful liberators of Planet Bob wait so long to stand up/stop supporting NPO? I assume it's a combination of fear and lack of empathy for those who were the "victims." (I.E. A war wasn't worth the trouble for most people Pacifica hit). Think about that.

[shahenshah]

Gentlemen, pls don't be swayed to non-essential discussion. The topic is about Reps and NPO Peace mode nations. Let us discuss that and stay on topic. There will be attempts as there were earlier to take this to matters that matter not.

Anyway, from NPO's perspective..

What Karma is offering to NPO is:

1. Certain Destruction - NPO will actually take less damage if they just sit tight in peace mode. (Pls read the stats posted earlier in this thread)

2. Uncertain Terms, but they have reassured us they will be extremely tough.

on top of that

3. Pre-terms.

The only guarantee that they have provided is: *My opinion is...*

This is after earlier fiascos in peace negotiations.

Someone please explain to me..why should NPO nations come out of peace mode under such conditions?

What's stopping you from discussing the terms *privately* with NPO huh? I am SURE you have no HIDDEN AGENDA..so I am not even asking that you to parade the terms publicly. If you have nothing to fear...nothing to be ashamed of, why hide it? Pls dont give us *war taaaktics* I am sure your nukes will do just as much damage as they will do with reps on the table. And with the level of alliances piled up, its simply brute force and really nothing tactical about anything.

That was me doing NPO role playing...my own opinion...NPO you guys put us in a big !@#$ :/

anyway.. Vengeance>Principles has trumped Infra>Friends.

Edited May 28, 2009 by shahenshah

[Nizzle]

You're arguing that eternal war is the result of not trusting "the lot of us," whereas giving some trust may (I assert will) lead to peace. Karma is willing to agree to peace under certain conditions, that doesn't mean that they're going to bend over backwards to lure the NPO to the table; why would they?

That, sir, is strikingly familiar to rationale used by those you are currently fighting.

Would you allow your alliance to move into a position of vulnerability on "the word" of your enemy that it will result in peace? Without a timetable for said peace? While reading the hate being spewed at your alliance?

EDIT: The bolded part is the closest you can say "Eternal war" without actually saying it.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Nizzle

[magicninja]

The difference is that I'm not judging anybody or tossing insults about because I disagree with them. I'm going "I disagree" and moving on.

That's not exactly what we were talking about Vir. I have no idea how you got to this point.

You said, "That me thinking you were wrong because of my own morality didn't make sense."

I asked "Then how can you say NPO was wrong because of your own personal morality?"

You. "I never said they were wrong. It's only my opinion that they are wrong, so I acted on it."

I really don't see what this post has anything to do with that little exchange except that you certainly did not move on. You have tried using their tactics against them regardless of morality.

[Virillus]

So why would you say they were posted, and for some time?

... Because they have been? Again, you can choose to believe me or not, I don't care.

The "pre-terms", as you call them, have to be accepted with final terms. So by admitting that they are hard to accept without the terms, and then stating you don't believe you should display the terms, is counter-productive. You basically admit these "pre-terms" are worthless.

No, I don't. You're trying to talk me into a corner and it won't work.

What I'm admitting, is that the NPO feels that they're worthless, something that we both know to be true. Whether or not Karma cares about that is another argument I'm not getting into right now.

[bbrownso]

Can someone please just straight out, tell me, why do the NPO not deserve harsh terms? If memory serves me correctly, the NPO have cheated and lied their way to the top, and now some of you feel pity? Please explain where this sudden well of sympathy is coming from...

And no don't tell me karma isn't keeping to their ideals, because I just don't need to hear it (this isn't about karma, it's about the NPO) >_>.

How about you give me a list of the crimes that make it fair that Pacifica receives harsh terms? I've asked before and never got a solid answer. Probably because Karma can't agree on what to use as justification and some alliances (GATO) wouldn't want to be used as a figurehead for the evils of the NPO.

NPO played the game better and they weren't alone in doing the things they did. I've seen several alliances over the years do the same things Pacifica did and I don't see them being demonized.

[Nizzle]

... Because they have been? Again, you can choose to believe me or not, I don't care.

If they aren't where the opposing party can see them....

No, I don't. You're trying to talk me into a corner and it won't work.

What I'm admitting, is that the NPO feels that they're worthless, something that we both know to be true. Whether or not Karma cares about that is another argument I'm not getting into right now.

So then give me a solid argument as to how you think these "pre-terms" will work.

[Virillus]

If they aren't where the opposing party can see them....

We've covered this, Nizzle. I've said many times that a certain amount of trust will be required.

So then give me a solid argument as to how you think these "pre-terms" will work.

Because I think they will believe us when we say the terms will get harsher the longer they stay in peace mode. Whether or not they admit it on these forums. And I think that belief will serve as impetus to get the war over with faster.

[Rush Sykes]

I have seen this show before an d I already know the ending. Here are the facts guys, this tactic does not work as has already been proven via FAN, what you are actually doing with this is discouraging NPO to seek peace. Yeah I get that they are being hypocrites but they also have a tight enough community and enough invested into the game to do the same thing FAN did.

Before you know it a whole new breed of player will be here that only knows NPO as the defeated alliance held in a state of eternal war and that will be used against you to take you down.

If you do not want to rethink this strategy because of morality then I would implore you to rethink it because of its long term tactical implications.

This logic kinda fails. I dont think there is ANYONE left in this game, after this war, that actually thinks that if they stick around long enough, they will not be on a side that gets owned in a war. I know it will happen to us. Its simply the nature of the game and the treaty web. So, I personally, and Im sure Athens as a whole, does not fear the fall of the future that is imminent. We have paid attention to the world around us as we played this game.

[AirMe]

If I was running FA for some of the alliances posting in this thread, I would be busting some heads because some of you are making their job incredibly hard in the future by posting like some thick skulled, bitter, ignorant fools.

INB4 ZOMG AIRME YOU HAVE DONE IT TOO. Yes I have, and in the past I had made my job harder and had regretted what I done. Remember how your words will affect your alliances path in the future.

[bzelger]

That, sir, is strikingly familiar to rationale used by those you are currently fighting.

Would you allow your alliance to move into a position of vulnerability on "the word" of your enemy that it will result in peace? Without a timetable for said peace? While reading the hate being spewed at your alliance?

EDIT: The bolded part is the closest you can say "Eternal war" without actually saying it.

With regards to your first and last lines: I don't want eternal war. Far from it. I am adamantly opposed to turning NPO into FAN, trying to compel their disbandment, ousting their leadership, or applying permanently emasculating terms (not that I have any pull in it). I believe in sportsmanship and respecting other players’ chance to have a good time, and want to balance it with practicality and defending my own comrades. It irks me no end that this OOC, OWF discussion is full mostly of empty rhetoric and meaningless propaganda staples. I don’t see any reasonable parallels between what the NPO has done and what Karma is doing. The NPO started the war and Karma has no choice but to win it decisively. If anybody has a better way to do it I would love to hear it.

As to the second part, any peace agreement rests on “the word” of your foe. Would I be keen on sending my secure nations into the fray? No. If my alternative were eternal war, I would do it anyway though, especially if my opponent was very clear that peace terms would come if my nations came out of peace mode but not if they didn’t.

If the situation were reversed, and Vladimir, Dilber or Moo informed my that my alliance would never see peace if we didn’t come out and fight, but that we would get terms if we did, I would operate under the assumption that they were telling the truth. My observations of their operations are that they would follow through. Do you think that Revanche and Virrillus are lying when they say peace terms will come? Would you assume that they were if you were the NPO?

If I was running FA for some of the alliances posting in this thread, I would be busting some heads because some of you are making their job incredibly hard in the future by posting like some thick skulled, bitter, ignorant fools.

INB4 ZOMG AIRME YOU HAVE DONE IT TOO. Yes I have, and in the past I had made my job harder and had regretted what I done. Remember how your words will affect your alliances path in the future.

If this includes me shoot me a pm and I'll shut up.

Edited May 28, 2009 by bzelger

[Roadie]

Let this be a lesson to everyone. Stop dropping the stagger and this problem can be avoided. Between all the threads in th OWF with posts that touch on what to do about NPO nations in hippy, there has to be hundreds if not thousands of posts on the topic. All that time would have been more effectively spent fighting. If you could. But you can't because you can't stagger.

I don't have a problem with Karmas war, their reason for it (at least in so far as I can tell what the reasons are) nor do I have a problem with them attempting to end the war on their terms.

What does concern me is how those terms are justified publicly. This rabble about punishment for peace mode has gotten out of hand. I agree with the line of thinking that punishing nations for remaining in peace mode has a legit purpose. Though I would call that purpose strategy, not tactics which it has most often been called. Just the same as I would call letting so many get to Defcon 6 a result of bad strategy, not tactics.

Anyhoo, getting back on track now.... The punishment for peace mode (the collective argument so far) appears to not be based on any reasoned thought. It's just some sort of punishment of an arbitrarily lessor amount than was done before. Which itself was an arbiritrarily decided amount.

In short, individuals who typically have shown an ability to reason well are showing no signs of using said reasoning ability. This is what concerns me.

As for terms, reps, pre-terms, peri-terms and whatever else. Meh.

[magicninja]

If I was running FA for some of the alliances posting in this thread, I would be busting some heads because some of you are making their job incredibly hard in the future by posting like some thick skulled, bitter, ignorant fools.

INB4 ZOMG AIRME YOU HAVE DONE IT TOO. Yes I have, and in the past I had made my job harder and had regretted what I done. Remember how your words will affect your alliances path in the future.

i.e. Have an opinion different form us and we won't like you....

Gotcha.

[TECUMSEH]

Whatever the intent -- and I find it hard to believe an admittedly loose coalition could actually have a single specific intent -- but whatever the intent, these "pre-terms" can only result in a perma-war. Whether they were intentionally designed to do so or simply a policy fail matters not.

Those "pre-terms", however, look downright reasonable in view of the later developed "they should accept the 'pre-terms' w/o a hint of actual terms because they need to trust us" line. I see a guy driving a dingy old conversion van with the Karma logo on the side pulling on up to the the schoolyard bully, rolling down the window and saying, "get in kid, trust me." Non-terms.

That's my own irrelevant take. Reality is it's Karma's World these days. They are the power. They've earned the right to achieve their objectives, whatever they may be, in the manner they see fit.

[Rush Sykes]

I do believe, contrary to "Karma's" intentions, that is what NPO is trying to do now. If anything, the actions of "Karma" have done nothing but encourage the NPO to seek revenge in whatever way possible.

Also, if they come out of peace mode....they will just get attacked. That's some pretty fail strategy.

Whoah, nations at war exiting peace mode will be attacked???? THE HORROR! Ebil Ebil Karma!

[AirMe]

If this includes me shoot me a pm and I'll shut up.

It was more of a general blanket thing.

i.e. Have an opinion different form us and we won't like you....

Gotcha.

Absolutely not. I don't know how you twisted what I said into that. I was just reminding people how their words affect their alliances future. Whether the words are official or not.

But hey, if you think I am down on you for having a different opinion than me....an opinion I have not posted in this thread.....hey what ever floats your boat. It just proves what you are really here for.

[King Srqt]

If I was running FA for some of the alliances posting in this thread, I would be busting some heads because some of you are making their job incredibly hard in the future by posting like some thick skulled, bitter, ignorant fools.

INB4 ZOMG AIRME YOU HAVE DONE IT TOO. Yes I have, and in the past I had made my job harder and had regretted what I done. Remember how your words will affect your alliances path in the future.

I will be sure to keep this in mind if it was in fact addressed at me in any way, I just hope Opethian doesn't bust my head

[Rush Sykes]

So you speak for Karma as a whole then right? Also, how long after members leave PM would we get terms? I'd rather be zied for a year and have no reps to pay, then have to pay rediculous reps with no nations still capable of making said payments.

Is this an admission of the vaunted Pacifican banks failing?

[Roadie]

The NPO started the war and Karma has no choice but to win it decisively. If anybody has a better way to do it I would love to hear it.

This implies you haven't already. I would caution that there is point where you can win decisively and go beyond good sportsmanship. Most importantly, you can't see that line. It can only be seen from within NPO. At some point you go too far and turn an enemy into a vengeful group of OOC butthurt individuals just as NPO or Hegemony or whomever has done with some of their past enemies.

The alliances that become allies or friends with past enemies are the ones who were treated well, not the ones you who got mistreated.

[magicninja]

It was more of a general blanket thing.

Absolutely not. I don't know how you twisted what I said into that. I was just reminding people how their words affect their alliances future. Whether the words are official or not.

But hey, if you think I am down on you for having a different opinion than me....an opinion I have not posted in this thread.....hey what ever floats your boat. It just proves what you are really here for.

Having the opinion of the rank and file of an alliance held against an entire alliance sounds like something only a heartless, evil, alliance would do.

I'm here to try to talk sense into you guys and what is your opinion on this whole affair since you made me wonder?

[Roadie]

Having the opinion of the rank and file of an alliance held against an entire alliance sounds like something only a heartless, evil, alliance would do.

I'm here to try to talk sense into you guys and what is your opinion on this whole affair since you made me wonder?

I encourage you to read my post above. Sense has been canceled for the remainder of the war.

[Rush Sykes]

You know what I've figured out? We're all hypocrites. All of us. Myself included. I'm speaking out against these terms, but I didn't speak out when this was done to GATO. I didn't like it, I thought it was wrong, but I said nothing. I wish I had had the balls to say something, but I didn't. For that, I am a hypocrite. I freely admit it. But I'm speaking up now. Call me a hypocrite, but I see an injustice, and I'm speaking up. I have as much right to do that as anyone. I'm not a fan of everything NPO does or has done. Heck, if you ask me, the CB for this war was crap. NPO is gonna get some harsh terms. Okay. I get that. Fine. But you're as hypocritical as I am, because if NPO did this to anyone, even someone who "deserved it", you would hate it. I mean, come on, pre-terms? We are all hypocrites. But he who does not hold himself to the standards to which he holds others is the worst kind of hypocrite. Take that as you will.

-Bama

The perspective, and the ache to speak up against an injustice, is much greater when you are on the losing side of the perceived injustice. I dont hold that against you, it is hypocritical, but it is also 95% human nature. I view all of your posts as being in defense of your friends and allies, and have respect for THAT. You have proven(you and TPF as a whole) to be a valuable and loyal ally. Respect that I did not have for you guys pre-war, has now become respect I DO have for you. Dont get me wrong, your past transgressions outweigh that respect, but the snowball at the top of the hill is very small before it becomes an avalanche. Carry on good sir.

[AirMe]

Having the opinion of the rank and file of an alliance held against an entire alliance sounds like something only a heartless, evil, alliance would do.

I'm here to try to talk sense into you guys and what is your opinion on this whole affair since you made me wonder?

You, again, have completely missed the point and are trying to turn the words inside out.

But when you really come down to it, every alliance member who posts reflects on that alliance. When I was running the NAAC and the FA for MK, I can't tell you how many times something like "Alliance Member X said this" and "Alliance Member Y said that" came up when discussing official relationships. It is how the world works. If that makes people evil, than we are all evil.

[magicninja]

You, again, have completely missed the point and are trying to turn the words inside out.

But when you really come down to it, every alliance member who posts reflects on that alliance. When I was running the NAAC and the FA for MK, I can't tell you how many times something like "Alliance Member X said this" and "Alliance Member Y said that" came up when discussing official relationships. It is how the world works. If that makes people evil, than we are all evil.

I see your point but it just seems a little off base. You're right of course. I'm talking about the practice.

So about your opinion on this.......

[bzelger]

This implies you haven't already. I would caution that there is point where you can win decisively and go beyond good sportsmanship. Most importantly, you can't see that line. It can only be seen from within NPO. At some point you go too far and turn an enemy into a vengeful group of OOC butthurt individuals just as NPO or Hegemony or whomever has done with some of their past enemies.

The alliances that become allies or friends with past enemies are the ones who were treated well, not the ones you who got mistreated.

Ok, some of this is fair. There are definitely ways to go too far. I'm not sure that I agree that the only place from which it can be seen is from within the NPO though. I do agree that it's probably hard to see the line from this side. Based on past activities I think it's unlikely that there's anything that can be done to prevent the NPO coming for vengeance though, and I haven't seen anything from them that indicates otherwise.