Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[Poobah]

I'll just chime in on this.

STA wasn't invited when work started on the White sphere MDoAP bloc, Whiteacre or Blizzard or something, don't recall what it was named. Let me see if I recall correctly -- TPF, TOOL, DefCon, FEAR, NEW, TGE, UCN, WAPA and Zenith. All the other signatories of SNOW at that time. Most of us turned it down I believe for various reasons -- like FEAR, TOOL, DefCon... dunno about any others.

The only one not invited? STA.

Even if they were still under terms, they should have been invited in on the talks and to help shape the White Unity bloc. I mean WAPA, who doesn't believe in anything above a MDP or ODP or something (don't quite recall...), was invited to help and all that stuff.

Yeah, just from my standpoint, STA doesn't have any friends on White... and that's just a shame in the strongest sense of the word.

Argent was not invited either. Very interesting.

[bzelger]

I don't know OPP's CB offhand. Nobody seemed to be terribly concerned about CBs that war. I don't know what treaties OPP members held beyond the OPP itself, if any. I'm sure that the best interests of the white team were considered though.

The best part? White will be just about 100% unified after this conflict is over

Hey Bzelger!

Personally i like you, no problems, but i really don't like this move by STA. A NAP wasn't a big deal, if you consider us friends, than why do you cancel a treaty like this? There are some white alliances who are not so familiar with most of white, but they can keep this treaty to have a healthy sphere as you said. If you look for further cooperation with white alliances than why did you cancel the basic white unity treaty?

I know that you still don't like SSW18 for attacking you in the last GW, but they were not part of SNOW this time. If it's the reason of cancellation it's so lame.

No, this has nothing to do with SSSW18 or the OPP, that was a comparison drawn that has spawned this massive, peripherally-related tangent. We cancelled because another signatory attacked our MDP partner. We felt the best way to honor all of our treaties was to cancel the NAP and then defend our ally after the expiration. We didn't have any perfect options.

[Bernkastel]

Argent was not invited either. Very interesting.

Well, this was back in early December or so and I think Argent may have still been a protectorate back then.

Oh yeah, tried to remember the other one invited and it was SSSW18.

[BamaBuc]

The attacks came long before they announced the declaration, as was referred to in the announcement itself.

In that case, that was very wrong. If there's one thing I hated about that war, it was the pre-preemptive strikes. But all the same, a lot of alliances did those... It doesn't mean TPF used them to bypass SNOW, it just means they were assigned to STA. Personally I didn't like how that war was handled at all, but it seems they were just "assigned" a target to pre-emptively attack rather than TPF going "dammit we can't hit STA, let's have OPP do it".

-Bama

[Poobah]

Well, this was back in early December or so and I think Argent may have still been a protectorate back then.

Oh yeah, tried to remember the other one invited and it was SSSW18.

That was at the time when upgrade talks were happening with TOOL and we were told we could upgrade when we were ready.

Once again, interesting.

[Wu Tang Clan]

In that case, that was very wrong. If there's one thing I hated about that war, it was the pre-preemptive strikes. But all the same, a lot of alliances did those... It doesn't mean TPF used them to bypass SNOW, it just means they were assigned to STA. Personally I didn't like how that war was handled at all, but it seems they were just "assigned" a target to pre-emptively attack rather than TPF going "dammit we can't hit STA, let's have OPP do it".

-Bama

But TPF did nothing to avoid that. It was their protectorates and according to OPP they knew about it, yet did nothing to prevent a situation. That's not in the best interest of "Solidarity of Nations On White" now is it? Did STA leave as a direct result of those events? No. But another war broke out. Pressure was put on STA, and this was justified to the utmost degree.

(I would like the thank BamaBuc for being understanding and respectful at all times. My responses aren't directly aimed at you but the people that attempt to slander STA in this thread, when they were at the fore in working for white unity. STA is by far one of the most honorable alliances in the game. If you think for one second that they left SNOW because it was best for their alliance alone, you are dead wrong. This was a decision made for the good of their close allies that hadn't betrayed them at an earlier time. You can not blame STA for the events that have transpired. This was, without a doubt a tough decision, and anyone that want's to degrade STA can have those such actions speak for the context of their character.)

With that, I will leave this thread.

One last time, o/ STA. Honorable as always.

[Roadie]

Reading the last page has filled me in on some things I never knew. I thank you all for this discussion.

Also: I move we rename the OPP to the Overlords Preemption Policy.

Edit: Yes. The second part was a joke.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Roadie

[Vespassianus]

I'll just chime in on this.

STA wasn't invited when work started on the White sphere MDoAP bloc, Whiteacre or Blizzard or something, don't recall what it was named. Let me see if I recall correctly -- TPF, TOOL, DefCon, FEAR, NEW, TGE, UCN, WAPA and Zenith. All the other signatories of SNOW at that time. Most of us turned it down I believe for various reasons -- like FEAR, TOOL, DefCon... dunno about any others.

The only one not invited? STA.

Even if they were still under terms, they should have been invited in on the talks and to help shape the White Unity bloc. I mean WAPA, who doesn't believe in anything above a MDP or ODP or something (don't quite recall...), was invited to help and all that stuff.

Yeah, just from my standpoint, STA doesn't have any friends on White... and that's just a shame in the strongest sense of the word.

Man you know nothing about the proposal of this bloc. Maybe you have some intel about it, but it's false. There was big debates about it to who can be the member of it, some alliances like FEAR wanted STA, some not, some alliances wanted WAPa, some not. It was a difficult situation and rather than having a bloc we have choosen to have individual treaties and SNOW only.

Also bzelger i understand your move, it's logical from your viewpoint, but i still don't like it.

[Roadie]

I just want to make sure everyone knows there is no hard feelings at all between TPF and STA over this.

[Poobah]

Man you know nothing about the proposal of this bloc. Maybe you have some intel about it, but it's false. There was big debates about it to who can be the member of it, some alliances like FEAR wanted STA, some not, some alliances wanted WAPa, some not. It was a difficult situation and rather than having a bloc we have choosen to have individual treaties and SNOW only.

Since Balsamic was DefCon government at the time of the proposal of this bloc, I think he knows what he's talking about.

[Bernkastel]

Man you know nothing about the proposal of this bloc. Maybe you have some intel about it, but it's false.

I was DefCon's Triumvir of War during that time, so of course I know basically everything that went on. I announced to the bloc parties that DefCon wasn't going to sign even. Better go back and read up, my friend. I, along with ZoomX3 and rabonnobar, were invited by GLU to the talks. Nice, saving face and denying everything? Very nice and typical.

[cowen70]

Man you know nothing about the proposal of this bloc. Maybe you have some intel about it, but it's false. There was big debates about it to who can be the member of it, some alliances like FEAR wanted STA, some not, some alliances wanted WAPa, some not. It was a difficult situation and rather than having a bloc we have choosen to have individual treaties and SNOW only.

Also bzelger i understand your move, it's logical from your viewpoint, but i still don't like it.

Hehehe.

Thats good, considering Balsamic Vinegar was involved in those talks.

[bigwoody]

If I ever waver in my faith in orange unity, I need only read this and my faith in orange is restored.

[Roadie]

If I ever waver in my faith in orange unity, I need only read this and my faith in orange is restored.

I lold

If you think looking at white is funny, you should try being here. We gotta look at NPOs allies to feel good about ourselves, which is sad.

[bigwoody]

You do realize why not many of your alliance mates have been posting lately right? Because any jab by you or them at another alliance can now be properly responded with a simple pointing at your Alliance Affiliation followed by laughter.

I guess I know one alliance that feels this way now.

Noted for future reference.

[Salmia]

I thank the members of TOOL, particularly Mia, for their work with SNOW and wish them all the best in the future.

No, we signed SNOW when it was formed as a white team economic pact. We value our MDPs over NAPs tied to economic treaties but still followed the economic treaty clauses to the letter. Your attempts to defame the STA are typically feeble. Had we crapped our pants when war broke out and cancelled long-term treaties to save our infrastructure, you'd have a point. But no one would do something as weak as that, surely?

Anyone saying that STA hasn't done their share and hasn't honored SNOW is dead wrong. I speak as someone who has been personally been head of SNOW since last August. They went through lengths to inform TOOL and ask how to withdraw. I was sadden to see this departure as STA has been one of the most valuable signatories of SNOW up to this point. They have been the most active and the most dedicated. If there was someone I could rely on, it was Tyga. This is a blow but it is understandable that a MDP ally takes precedence over a NAP.

As in regards to what happened last August with OPP, SNOW had a legal loophole at that time in regards to protectorates. Protectorates reaped the full benefits of SNOW but were in no way tied to the NAP and thus OPP attacked STA with no repercussions. They were not bound to the NAP. It was a mistake of the wording that SNOW learned from and has since been rectified. And yes, STA did voice complaints at that time.

It was a mistake in the past that was not handled correctly but following that legal loophole, the Charter was amended and announced. Signatories are now responsible for their protectorates' actions, meaning if a protectorate violates the NAP, the protector can be kicked out for that action. The charter revision in December: here.

It was a mistake however with the legal loophole and how it was handled. But there was something learned and fixed. However, STA cannot be condemned for leaving an economic pact for a MDP ally. I wish STA luck. You've been great to work with and I am saddened to see things went this way. It is always sad to see white on white but hopefully in the future, things may right themselves again. I could not ask more than what you've given to SNOW and I am grateful for it.

[bzelger]

I guess I know one alliance that feels this way now.

Noted for future reference.

HeinousOne is not an alliance.

We haven't forgotten that you gave us white peace at the end of the last war, and I don't think there was anything dishonorable about your exit from this one.

[ClashCityRocker]

I'll just chime in on this.

STA wasn't invited when work started on the White sphere MDoAP bloc, Whiteacre or Blizzard or something, don't recall what it was named. Let me see if I recall correctly -- TPF, TOOL, DefCon, FEAR, NEW, TGE, UCN, WAPA and Zenith. All the other signatories of SNOW at that time. Most of us turned it down I believe for various reasons -- like FEAR, TOOL, DefCon... dunno about any others.

The only one not invited? STA.

Even if they were still under terms, they should have been invited in on the talks and to help shape the White Unity bloc. I mean WAPA, who doesn't believe in anything above a MDP or ODP or something (don't quite recall...), was invited to help and all that stuff.

Yeah, just from my standpoint, STA doesn't have any friends on White... and that's just a shame in the strongest sense of the word.

Being involved in the bloc, you should know it wasnt a group decision to not involve STA. in fact, i remember quite a few alliances voicing that STA should be included. These were simply talks, talks that only lasted a few days before it became apparent most of us wernt interested. I know personally that FEAR has always had a rather good opinion of STA, and im sure other white alliances do as well. So please dont try and speak for us on the matter.

[mhawk]

Argent was not invited either. Very interesting.

I'm not sure you were founded yet. Trying to allude to being ticked off is sort of odd, I remember being approached by MHA to drop the tool treaty so they could get argent. But like I said, most of these talks were in nov/dec

Second, whatever tpf and opp did in the past is very much in the past. I can't really explain the reasoning or actions as there is pretty much no one left in my top gov, or our top mil command that was even in TPF during that time. Folks can claim the intentions of tpf here but for better or worse we're pretty different by nature of complete leadership and many membership changes. That is the problem with drawing up long past history into current decision making. As I said, tyga could well have dow'ed us, he didnt and helped facilitate ML leaving the conflict which allowed us all to peace out over on that side of the war. I'm sure there will be plenty of time to work out the wording of such treaties later if STA wants to rejoin them.

[Poobah]

I'm not sure you were founded yet. Trying to allude to being ticked off is sort of odd, I remember being approached by MHA to drop the tool treaty so they could get argent. But like I said, most of these talks were in nov/dec

Second, whatever tpf and opp did in the past is very much in the past. I can't really explain the reasoning or actions as there is pretty much no one left in my top gov, or our top mil command that was even in TPF during that time. Folks can claim the intentions of tpf here but for better or worse we're pretty different by nature of complete leadership and many membership changes. That is the problem with drawing up long past history into current decision making. As I said, tyga could well have dow'ed us, he didnt and helped facilitate ML leaving the conflict which allowed us all to peace out over on that side of the war. I'm sure there will be plenty of time to work out the wording of such treaties later if STA wants to rejoin them.

Firstly, don't try and air our dirty laundry with MHA here. That was in the first days of our founding, and the person that did that did it without approval from his superiors, apologized, and has since left MHA. Our relations with MHA, especially as of late, have been very cordial.

Argent was founded mid september (around the 20th I believe), and TOOL told us in December that whenever we were ready to upgrade our protectorate to an MDoAP. What I have been told today is that this bloc was being discussed in December/January (when we decided for our protectorate to be upgraded) so we were in fact left out of the talks. And, from what I hear, it was TPF that told people to not include us.

[Bernkastel]

Being involved in the bloc, you should know it wasnt a group decision to not involve STA.

Still, all White alliances should have been invited. TPF, who was the head of the talks, failed to do so in the name of "unity" ... what a joke.

It was pretty unanimous from DefCon that we didn't want to be allied to TGE and we wanted to seek individual treaties with White alliances (we signed a PIAT w/ FEAR a couple days later after voting down the bloc idea), so that's where it went wrong for us.

So many things I wish I could do-over. Oh well.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Balsamic Vinegar

[mhawk]

Firstly, don't try and air our dirty laundry with MHA here. That was in the first days of our founding, and the person that did that did it without approval from his superiors, apologized, and has since left MHA. Our relations with MHA, especially as of late, have been very cordial.

Argent was founded mid september (around the 20th I believe), and TOOL told us in December that whenever we were ready to upgrade our protectorate to an MDoAP. What I have been told today is that this bloc was being discussed in December/January (when we decided for our protectorate to be upgraded) so we were in fact left out of the talks. And, from what I hear, it was TPF that told people to not include us.

We never said don't include Argent, I was hardly aware of who you were. I'm guessing the guy telling you this stuff (youmaka) is a bit bitter over him being outed as blackstone and later acting as a Vox agent. The way to make a bloc work is to talk to a few key alliances to get them on board, then proceed from there. We never fully got the folks we were aiming for on board (tool) so the project was dropped.

[astronaut jones]

Firstly, don't try and air our dirty laundry with MHA here. That was in the first days of our founding, and the person that did that did it without approval from his superiors, apologized, and has since left MHA. Our relations with MHA, especially as of late, have been very cordial.

Argent was founded mid september (around the 20th I believe), and TOOL told us in December that whenever we were ready to upgrade our protectorate to an MDoAP. What I have been told today is that this bloc was being discussed in December/January (when we decided for our protectorate to be upgraded) so we were in fact left out of the talks. And, from what I hear, it was TPF that told people to not include us.

Mhawk likes to tell people that TPF has changed, and yes in the physical sense it has changed. The government? Yeah, it's allllll different. Techncially he's right.

What he doesn't tell you is, Mhawk and the rest of TPF government, the new guys, have continued the same agenda that the old leaders had. It's the same TPF as it always was, up to the same tricks they always did, and they made no attempt at all to change when they took over.

But yeah, "technically" the government changed. "Technically" TPF is different. So he wants brownie points for that.

[Vespassianus]

I was DefCon's Triumvir of War during that time, so of course I know basically everything that went on. I announced to the bloc parties that DefCon wasn't going to sign even. Better go back and read up, my friend. I, along with ZoomX3 and rabonnobar, were invited by GLU to the talks. Nice, saving face and denying everything? Very nice and typical.

If you were Defcon triumvir there you should know more about these talks or you don't remember things? There was some alliances who wanted to invite STA.

Also good old days, Defcon was a good alliance.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Vespassianus

[mhawk]

Still, all White alliances should have been invited. TPF, who was the head of the talks, failed to do so in the name of "unity" ... what a joke.

It was pretty unanimous from DefCon that we didn't want to be allied to TGE and we wanted to seek individual treaties with White alliances (we signed a PIAT w/ FEAR a couple days later after voting down the bloc idea), so that's where it went wrong for us.

So many things I wish I could do-over. Oh well.

Inviting everyone is not how you build a bloc of that size, you have to get a few on board first then work to expand it. When folks weren't on board the issue was dropped, you're really pushing too hard here.