Rewards For Good Behavior

[Justinian the Mighty]

To all of you who said "no" without offering a real argument against it, I would suggest either reading the actual proposals or coming up with a real argument. It seems the logical choice to make an argument and actually have a chance of having your point of view considered instead of blatantly saying "no" without any sort of persuasion or actual effort put into your decisions making them effectively worthless.

This is just a yes or no thread. There'll be another thread for you to suggest what the rules should be.

^^I didn't know we had to give explanations.

I answered No... my reason for that has been proven over and over in the past. People get lazy with mergers. The rp's are better, because mergers are gone, and everyone is forced to be accountable for their own chunk of land. Before mergers were removed, in most cases there's no rp behind the mergers, no cultural and historic similarities, and sometimes there not even located near each other on the planet. You see nations in North America merging with nations in Africa and Asia. Pacific based nations merging with countries in Europe and eventually it all becomes one big cluster smear.

Like I said, it forces responsibility of all rper's not just one. For instance the issue with Triyun and all those NPO rper's who everyone said were just there to back up Triyun when there was a war. If they had been given the opportunity to merge with him their countries wouldn't have been purged in a timely manner, and he would have had a slew of other rper's to command when a war starts.

Everyone says the Dragon Empire was a reasonable merger, no it wasn’t. There wasn’t any rp before these leaders just said "O hai, yah we'll join ur empirez for teh lulz." True everyone did rp their states equally, but if we were people living in these states, we would think to ourselves, "Lolwut?"

I've heard that military power and tech wont stack, that’s dandy. but that doesn’t make up for those lazy people who are just merging to be allowed to keep their land, and only rp when their buddies need them. The only kind of merger I think should be allowed is when a player quits or rerolls and another neighboring player annexes their country, or one country invades another and occupies it. So basically the only good mergers are the ones that never happen.

[Subtleknifewielder]

I am not diametrically opposed to mergers. I am opposed to powerplaying. From the mergers that did occur there were several defining points.

• Merged nations were more powerful
  
• They all merged seamlessly
  
• They all had one RP'er who was able to be very active, usually a good Rp'er, however, they also had control of all the assets of the merger, giving them power they would not have if they were not merged.
  
• Other Rp'ers had sparse RP, if any.
  

So, to me, mergers are ok, as long as several points are noted.

• Stats should not stack.
  
• Military should not be able to be controlled by one Rp'er.
  
• All participants should be active.
  
• Inactive participants should be able to be separated off and purged, just like any other nation.
  
• As a final point, they should only be awarded to good Rp'ers, people who can realistically RP the process. Examples in favour, Dragon Empire. Examples opposed, {Thats med one}, {That africa / america one}.
  

For reference, the mergers you refer to were Nova Roma and the United Francoist Empire, which was actually in Asia.

And for the record, I'm in favor only if they are done the way LVN outlines. Inactive provinces get purged like any other natuion, etc.

Responsible mergers, with much roleplaying involved as well as a strong pre-existing relationship, should be allowed.

Retarded mergers like the Dragon Empire should not be permitted. That is exactly what Frost is talking about. All those people just handed their nations over to a single ruler when they didn't feel like RPing any longer. It was ridiculous.

Actually, the Dragon Empire was the one that was actually thought out the best, though it was still not as realistically Rp'd as it could have been.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

Actually, the Dragon Empire was the one that was actually thought out the best, though it was still not as realistically Rp'd as it could have been.

They had more active members, but absolutely no IC reason to merge. No previous agreements, only occasionally a shared border, etc.

[Shadowsage]

I wouldn't be against responsible mergers. RESPONSIBLE.

[Mergerberger II]

Actually, the Dragon Empire was the one that was actually thought out the best, though it was still not as realistically Rp'd as it could have been.

No, the Dragon Empire had absolutely no RPing to go along with it, and made absolutely no strategic sense for any nation involved except for Dragonisia. Mergers like Greater Nordland, which was the first and the tightest, and then the United Francoist Empire, which was RP'd quite well, and had a strong history associated with it, made sense because they were consisting of nations with a very close history together and very close proximity to one another. No one in the Dragon Empire had such things.

[Sumeragi]

I'll first see how it goes.

[Kaiser Martens]

If they're RPed well, no problem.

[Subtleknifewielder]

No, the Dragon Empire had absolutely no RPing to go along with it, and made absolutely no strategic sense for any nation involved except for Dragonisia. Mergers like Greater Nordland, which was the first and the tightest, and then the United Francoist Empire, which was RP'd quite well, and had a strong history associated with it, made sense because they were consisting of nations with a very close history together and very close proximity to one another. No one in the Dragon Empire had such things.

I did not say the Dragon empire was perfect, but neither was Greater Nordland or the United Francoist Empire. All had their strengths and weaknesses.

The Dragon Empire required its members to be active, but there was no real IC reason for them to be merging, as you pointed out.

The United Francoist Empire was ethnically close, but only one member was truly active at any time, generally Triyun.

Greater Nordland was not realistic at all, stacking tech when martens didn't even have that much to begin with. The only thing it had going for it was that ethnically, they were closer than the Dragon Empire, and had some reason to join.

[Mergerberger II]

I did not say the Dragon empire was perfect, but neither was Greater Nordland or the United Francoist Empire. All had their strengths and weaknesses.

The Dragon Empire required its members to be active, but there was no real IC reason for them to be merging, as you pointed out.

The United Francoist Empire was ethnically close, but only one member was truly active at any time, generally Triyun.

Greater Nordland was not realistic at all, stacking tech when martens didn't even have that much to begin with. The only thing it had going for it was that ethnically, they were closer than the Dragon Empire, and had some reason to join.

I was very active for the United Francoist Empire. I like to think I did a lot.

On the topic of mergers, as most have said, yes if they are done responsibly.

[Subtleknifewielder]

I was very active for the United Francoist Empire. I like to think I did a lot.

On the topic of mergers, as most have said, yes if they are done responsibly.

For a while you did...but much of the time you were active, Triyun was NOT. It was a very RARE occurance for all the merge partners (or even a majority) to be active.

[Sumeragi]

Greater Nordland was not realistic at all, stacking tech when martens didn't even have that much to begin with. The only thing it had going for it was that ethnically, they were closer than the Dragon Empire, and had some reason to join.

We could argue that the ZI situation was something that could be considered, like how Mudd had his navy even when he had none IG.

[Subtleknifewielder]

We could argue that the ZI situation was something that could be considered, like how Mudd had his navy even when he had none IG.

Martens had a choice.

[JerreyRough]

As others have said, only responcible mergers should be allowed.

But there should still be some gain from it. By what people are suggesting, then they would most likely have to be far more active than they are currently, and without any gain; they may as well have good treaties and do things like (aka better than & more unified) the UN.

Also, a merger doesn't neccessary have to be with locals and such; Cuba and Russia had few things in common other than government (and that Russia wanted a good tactical spot to fire nukes from during the Cold War), but they still "merged".

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Responsible mergers, with much roleplaying involved as well as a strong pre-existing relationship, should be allowed.

Retarded mergers like the Dragon Empire should not be permitted. That is exactly what Frost is talking about. All those people just handed their nations over to a single ruler when they didn't feel like RPing any longer. It was ridiculous.

I strongly object to this characterization as during the time of the Empire all players were active and I ensured they were or that they were removed/consumed in some way. I would like to know if you actually check it's fact book almost all the states who were members at the time had some participation or other in the rp environment at the time and especially in the RP history that was cataloged for the empire manually by me. Nice attempt at skewing history, but no, there is a record.

My geostrategic opponents at the time are vividly aware of this fact as I'm sure it was an incredibly annoying fact at the time that they were active and were participating.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Maelstrom Vortex]

^^I didn't know we had to give explanations.

I answered No... my reason for that has been proven over and over in the past. People get lazy with mergers. The rp's are better, because mergers are gone, and everyone is forced to be accountable for their own chunk of land. Before mergers were removed, in most cases there's no rp behind the mergers, no cultural and historic similarities, and sometimes there not even located near each other on the planet. You see nations in North America merging with nations in Africa and Asia. Pacific based nations merging with countries in Europe and eventually it all becomes one big cluster smear.

Like I said, it forces responsibility of all rper's not just one. For instance the issue with Triyun and all those NPO rper's who everyone said were just there to back up Triyun when there was a war. If they had been given the opportunity to merge with him their countries wouldn't have been purged in a timely manner, and he would have had a slew of other rper's to command when a war starts.

Everyone says the Dragon Empire was a reasonable merger, no it wasn’t. There wasn’t any rp before these leaders just said "O hai, yah we'll join ur empirez for teh lulz." True everyone did rp their states equally, but if we were people living in these states, we would think to ourselves, "Lolwut?"

I've heard that military power and tech wont stack, that’s dandy. but that doesn’t make up for those lazy people who are just merging to be allowed to keep their land, and only rp when their buddies need them. The only kind of merger I think should be allowed is when a player quits or rerolls and another neighboring player annexes their country, or one country invades another and occupies it. So basically the only good mergers are the ones that never happen.

Justinian, I cataloged the RPs there was so much of it and those in the region who actually paid attention to the RP knew that it was present, and active. Not all actions happen in the public eye. There was RP done and the people involved in the role of the Empire were constantly active on the boards after they joined and especially in RP where we planned everything in a special side channel. I love how people don't do their research before making claims.

As for the logic there was no rhyme or reason to the merger, also a total failure of personal logic.

The reason is simple.. and the motives were clear: Joint mutual protection and co-operation. You do not have to have close cultures by necessity to simply want to protect and defend your own land and hide or to trade. It makes you less likely to co-operate, but it does not render co-operation impossible or we would not have a U.N. If co-operation between different cultures were not possible, the U.S.A. might not even exist as it is spread out over a large area.. and though some general principles of cultural identity are shared.. between Maine and California I assure you there is a vastness in the difference of how cultures are formed and interact.. which is why we have the whole.. blue state/red state map being so predictable each election.. typically. This doesn't even consider Hawaii, Alaska or extended territorial domains.

There's a good chance if the merger ban is repealed the Dragon Empire will return.. but I may not be its President. I've been beaten into a pulp IG, I'd rather let someone who is not be our leader.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sir Keshav IV]

Dragon Empire was I would say the most active merger where all RP'ers were active. It was fare more active then Greater Nordland as Martens only RP'ed that and occasionally BR will pop in a post(No offense mate). While joining Dragon Empire like that was no point, rp wise it was the best merger. We didn't go overboard with stats. We did not stack up, we RP'ed ONE NATION, as different ministers etc, which was more or less like a REAL government RP'ing. So if you call that retarded then I dunno how else you want mergers to be. Also who cares if they were a bunch of nations in different parts of the world? It was the Dragon EMPIRE for a reason you know.

Otherwise I would say yes to mergers.

[Justinian the Mighty]

Justinian, I cataloged the RPs there was so much of it and those in the region who actually paid attention to the RP knew that it was present, and active. Not all actions happen in the public eye. There was RP done and the people involved in the role of the Empire were constantly active on the boards after they joined and especially in RP where we planned everything in a special side channel. I love how people don't do their research before making claims.

As for the logic there was no rhyme or reason to the merger, also a total failure of personal logic.

The reason is simple.. and the motives were clear: Joint mutual protection and co-operation. You do not have to have close cultures by necessity to simply want to protect and defend your own land and hide or to trade. It makes you less likely to co-operate, but it does not render co-operation impossible or we would not have a U.N. If co-operation between different cultures were not possible, the U.S.A. might not even exist as it is spread out over a large area.. and though some general principles of cultural identity are shared.. between Maine and California I assure you there is a vastness in the difference of how cultures are formed and interact.. which is why we have the whole.. blue state/red state map being so predictable each election.. typically.

There's a good chance if the merger ban is repealed the Dragon Empire will return.. but I may not be its President. I've been beaten into a pulp IG, I'd rather let someone who is not be our leader.

Reading comprehension is lacking on these boards I see. I said "everyone rped their states equally." What I mean by that is everyone was equally active, you didn't rp everything while all the others sat back and did nothing, until war came. So stop with the subtle insult's because you're not cute.

As far as coming together for mutual protection/co-operation, that’s why countries make alliances, sign trade agreements, and work together on other social and technological projects. The Dragon Empire wasn’t like the U.N. I don’t even know why you’re comparing the two. Comparing it to the USA that annexed, bought or won land in wars. The USA didn’t go to the Native Americans and say “Hey guys join the USA, we have caek.” We didn’t say “hey Spain give us Florida pl0x” and we definitely didn’t ask Mexico for… anything. People don’t willingly give up their sovereignty like they did with the Dragon Empire.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Lets see: The U.S. was SOLD Louisiana. Alaska was also sold to us. Other states who could have been independent if enough desire had been demonstrated.. like Hawaii.. aren't. And we have more far flung territories besides just the states that still haven't opted to be independent. Texas almost went independent, but thought better of it.. and still occasionally thinks about it.

Additionally, most states approached rejected joining the Dragon Empire without a sufficient cause for it. There were also additional candidates we were canvassing as potential members prior to the ban, but they also were waiting for the right time, which thanks to the ban, never came.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Sir Keshav IV]

Reading comprehension is lacking on these boards I see. I said "everyone rped their states equally." What I mean by that is everyone was equally active, you didn't rp everything while all the others sat back and did nothing, until war came. So stop with the subtle insult's because you're not cute.

As far as coming together for mutual protection/co-operation, that’s why countries make alliances, sign trade agreements, and work together on other social and technological projects. The Dragon Empire wasn’t like the U.N. I don’t even know why you’re comparing the two. Comparing it to the USA that annexed, bought or won land in wars. The USA didn’t go to the Native Americans and say “Hey guys join the USA, we have caek.” We didn’t say “hey Spain give us Florida pl0x” and we definitely didn’t ask Mexico for… anything. People don’t willingly give up their sovereignty like they did with the Dragon Empire.

Only thing I can say to that "Bull !@#$" if your throwing that out at the Dragon Empire its pure "Bull !@#$".

[Maelstrom Vortex]

People seem to forget that the entire structure of our military and our war doctrines were actually being WRITTEN and have been documented in my factbook. They were WRITTEN by Vasili Markov. So lets see.. I had Megan Fox, aka Keshav, as my diplomat, myself as chair, Vasili as general, Oceana as minister of health until mergers were banned, Taiwan (Nebu/Ezekiel) as our intelligence minister.. and the list goes on with assignments based on role and they all had something to do and did something useful in the RP.

Zeek helped us with a CB against old Camberlain.

Keshav was all over the world as a diplomat for us.

Vasili wrote a field manual for the organization of our militaries...

What part of integrated roleplay and activity are you missing?

[Sir Keshav IV]

Wait strike that Mael, You forgot our Interior Minister who built amazing buildings and city planning etc.

[Il Terra Di Agea]

Lets see: The U.S. was SOLD Louisiana.

After we asked to buy a piece, and the French, knowing they couldn't keep the land at the time offered to sell it all, at witch point the US government disregarded it's own policies to take the great deal.

Other states who could have been independent if enough desire had been demonstrated.. like Hawaii.. aren't. And we have more far flung territories besides just the states that still haven't opted to be independent. Texas almost went independent, but thought better of it.. and still occasionally thinks about it.

Because Texas not only bordered the US, but it was also constantly under siege by Mexico, who wanted it back. Also, Hawaii didn't have a choice, their monarchy was overthrown by Americans, who then applied for Hawaii's citizenship, the US said sure.

Guam, by the way, wants to be a state, but they can't get in to the Union.

EDIT: You also have to remember that most of the land we (US) "Bought" was mostly empty when we got there. There were no revolts because there were only some small frontier towns, and occasionally a fair sized city that was almost completely neglected by its European owner, and hence, no one really to revolt. However, if, say, Britain were to reclaim the US, or merge, people on both sides would be pissed, the change in ruling style alone would probably be enough to spark massive migration out of the country.

Additionally, most states approached rejected joining the Dragon Empire without a sufficient cause for it. There were also additional candidates we were canvassing as potential members prior to the ban, but they also were waiting for the right time, which thanks to the ban, never came.

And I still say your IC made up reasoning for merging is ridiculous. Once together, most of you did what you were supposed to, and stayed pretty active, which is how the completed mergers should be run, but you had, and still have no real reason to merge beside power and land.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Il Terra Di Agea

[V The King]

Just coming up with some ideas that might make mergers fairer, not game breaking, etc.

-All merged nations' leaders have to be well active, else they face the risk of being "un-merged", as well as making it clear that it is not just one player leading the charge mounted and everyone else just going along, walking.

-Technology takes time to "spread out". So, if a nation with 2K tech merged with one of 1K tech, it'd have 1.5K tech at first. Then after a few months (could be fixed) and RP of technological evolution in the less developed areas, then the tech of the merged nation could be at the highest value.

-For the sake of game balance, the infrastructure of merging nations should not stack at their fullest extent, with some kind of "diminishing return" going on. So, the first nation can employ 100% of its infra, but the second one can only contribute with 50%, etc... just throwing this out here, the idea could be worked out later... This is to avoid "LoL, look at my nation, it has the biggest economy in the world I buy everything I control everyone! LoL! Look at how big my army is? I steamroll you!". Or just not stack at all

-Each nation makes their own military movements

-All players compromising the merged nation has a de factor obligation to RP changes brought about by the merger - just not like "LOL SO THEY HAVE MORE SHOPS CUZ THEY BE RICHER". but like, actual societal changes

Might I note as well, parallels with RL situations are quite... off, particularly because in the Real Life case, the merger has to constantly have the people's support as well as political support and economic success, and a leader is not necessarily on top of such, while in RP situations, a player can just be like "oh ok so like my whole nation agreed they be all happy", even if say, a Japanese nation is merging with a Chinese one - an obvious RL incompatibility but very much workable in CNRP if only the two players agree.

Also, RP mergers don't face all societal issues and potentially economical and politics ones that come with mergers - after all, it would be very hard to RP them accurately. So really, merging is a win-win scenario in most cases 'round here.

Just some food for thought.

Edited May 8, 2009 by V The King

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Wait strike that Mael, You forgot our Interior Minister who built amazing buildings and city planning etc.

Oh yeah! Nikonov.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

And I still say your IC made up reasoning for merging is ridiculous. Once together, most of you did what you were supposed to, and stayed pretty active, which is how the completed mergers should be run, but you had, and still have no real reason to merge beside power and land.

Did we need any other reason? LOL.