Dark Fist DoW 2.0

[Starcraftmazter]

We are out of the war we can see we are on the winning side and we wont some more spoils

Will we look to our allies that are at war and offer help ,well that would take time ,Hey look over there is a small alliance getting dogpiled on 6-1 lets join in here, we are pretty assured of victory in that war .......Go Us Rargh

Either way ,New are more than a match for you and I envisage them doing more damage to you than you to they

No, that is not right at all. Furthermore, you contradict yourself, AND insult NEW. Congratulations.

[Daikos]

I urge any of the (EDIT bad word removed thesaurus.com provided replacements: demon, dwarf, giant, gnome, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, leprechaun, monster, mythical creature, ogre) in this thread to point out any wars that Dark Fist (or Dark Fall or FIST for that matter) that we have joined because we were assured victory and safety for our pixels. I warn you though, you will be looking for a VERY long time because they do NOT exist.

Guess what, war is not a tea party. It's war. And as they say, all is fair in war.

Ya know, kinda like BLOCs with 20+ million NS declaring on single alliances with less than 1 million NS. You reap what you sew.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Daikos

[Starcraftmazter]

These Hegemony people are pretty funny. I mean, I know they're used to abandoning their allies if there's a slight chance they might lose a dozen infra or two, even if they have treaties, but...this is ridiculous.

[suryanto tan]

During this war, we have grown a new level of respect toward the alliances we fight: CCC, GR, TDE, and CD. We occasionally talk and play in IRC channel and have seen them as friendly opponents rather than enemies. If you take a look at their declaration of war on us, and ours on them, it is filled with friendly attitude and good respect toward each other. We welcomed them into the war against us and our feeling toward them are nothing but admiration and respect.

Your entrance into the war felt different. Now, do not take me wrong, this does not mean that we will hold grudge against you or that I am attempting to make threat of any kind (nor am I capable of issue any threat). I am not questioning your legacy to enter the war, but rather puzzled by your motives. Like it or not, your controversial declaration of war on us will cast a bad image on you, as you have witnessed here in this thread. If your entrance to this war is truly on the spirit of doing the right thing, I think it is time for us to introspect and realize how evil and dishonorable we have been, that make you cannot help but wanted to destroy us.

After your declaration of war, you do not even have the courtesy to contact our government in private in hope that the war will later end in good term. When our government approach you regarding the matter, it was met with curt response and with the confident arrogant winning attitude. If I have never talked with you before, I could think that it is the way you are, and would understand that. But you were very different when I talked to you during the time when Dark Fist were hit by NpO for personifying their government. Your attitude that time really made me think how evil NpO was and how you truly deserved some mercy.

But again, you perhaps never hope and will never care for a good relation with us. For we are perhaps are not of your class, and are no worthy enough for you to be treated well. Your action, like it or not, will have a great impact on our future relation.

edit: spelling

Edited May 8, 2009 by suryanto tan

[arhctheshark]

Suryanto, I can assure you we have nothing to gain or prove with this declaration of war. We're quite simply helping our allies. It should be a huge compliment to you that you've put up a good enough fight to entice our reentry. A reentry I might restate could have easily been against IRON and other alliances that would have been a much easier fight (not that IRON is not a top notch alliance - they definitely are, but they have far more defensive wars and our addition would likely change very little in terms of the overall fighting) . But, instead we're here . Furthermore, major props to your alliance's fighting capabilities, In 24 hours, I've been challenged and hopefully we'll have a good old fashion bout and no hard feelings are felt.

Edited May 8, 2009 by arhctheshark

[foxodi]

Your entrance into the war felt different.

Well that is unfortunate. But please take note that we do in fact have legal ways of entering this war - we just decided not to use them; therefore I don't see how our entrance was much different from anyone elses

I am not questioning your legacy to enter the war, but rather puzzled by your motives.

Defending and helping friends as already stated; we do not seek for spoils of war.

Like it or not, your controversial declaration of war on us will cast a bad image on you, as you have witnessed here in this thread.

If the wider public reads this thread and determines we were in the wrong then that is unfortunate; however we are doing what we feel is right for our friends - and in the end friends is what counts the most. Many of the negative posts in this thread have been putting words into people's mouths or other illogical arguments - for these people I care little of what they think.

I think it is time for us to introspect and realize how evil and dishonorable we have been, that make you cannot help but wanted to destroy us.

We do not wish to destroy you; we are merely assisting friends. You are not evil; you are not dishonorable. It is just an unfortunate chain of events that will conclude in peace for all

When our government approach you regarding the matter, it was met with curt response and with the confidence arrogant winning attitude.

Who did you approach about the matter? I do not think this is a fair representation of our government and I would invite you to stop by again.

But again, you perhaps never hope and will never care for a good relation with us.

We hope for good relations with most alliances on Planet Bob; I see no reason why NEW would not be one of those.

[Starcraftmazter]

First of all let me say, that I find your conduct in your wars with other alliances quite irrelevant. You can't act like jerks to us, and cry victim pointing to other wars, and telling tales of you being nice to your other enemies. You will be judged by us, by your actions in regards to your war with us and with us only. And so far, I am unimpressed, as you for one keep writing complete !@#$, like your latest post, instead of just getting on with the war. I have addressed any problems you had, and you continue to write !@#$. This reflects badly on you, despite what you claim.

I am not questioning your legacy to enter the war, but rather puzzled by your motives.

We've explained it time and time again. We're helping our friends and furthering our side's war effort. You really need to get over it. Seriously...stop obsessing over such a trivial matter.

Like it or not, your controversial declaration of war on us will cast a bad image on you, as you have witnessed here in this thread.

I beg to differ. There have been a lot of silly and uninformed posts in this thread, which we couldn't care less about. The only actual nations which had a problem with this, as I recall, was a person from RIA, and he did it respectfully, unlike the aforementioned silly and uninformed individuals. Their opinions are irrelevant to us, and to everyone else who counts in our minds. For those that matter, I am quite confident, they can see this as what it is - us helping friends and furthering our side's war effort. It's an honourable thing to sacrifice one's infra for this, especially if you have no obligation to do so. Anyone who disagrees can go and jump, because we simply don't care. We have already spoken to close friends and allies, and they seem to agree - so there.

If your entrance to this war is truly on the spirit of doing the right thing, I think it is time for us to introspect and realize how evil and dishonorable we have been, that make you cannot help but wanted to destroy us.

You are accusing yourself of being evil and dishonourable aren't you? From my interpretation of what you said that is the case, and I sure hope so

We are not looking to destroy anyone, as I have already said many times, we will exit this war along with the rest of the alliances fighting you at the same time. Our main goal is simply to draw fire away from CCC/CD, as your nations are much more powerful than many of theirs. Tl;dr - pick on someone your own size.

After your declaration of war, you do not even have the courtesy to contact our government in private in hope that the war will later end in good term. When our government approach you regarding the matter, it was met with curt response and with the confidence arrogant winning attitude.

Excuse me? What?

First of all, since when is it standard for governments to approach their enemy governments at the onset of war and tell them exactly how it will end? It is not.

Second of all, you contacted me seeking clearly private information which was completely irrelevant to how our war with you ends. If you actually wanted to know this - then why not ask?

And we never had a winning arrogant attitude. Sounds to me like you're just making stuff up now. We always have a fun and positive attitude when it comes to war - and I'm very sorry if your alliance isn't like that.

If I have never talked with you before, I could think that it is the way you are, and would understand that. But you were very different when I talked to you during the time when Dark Fist were hit by NpO for personifying their government. Your attitude that time really made me think how evil NpO was and how you truly deserved some mercy.

First of all, DF was not hit by NpO, FIST was. Second of all, I don't have much of a recollection of our chat, and by no means was it sizeable. Seems that you don't recall that event better, given you can't even remember what alliances were involved.

But again, you perhaps never hope and will never care for a good relation with us. For we are perhaps are not of your class, and are no worthy enough for you to be treated well. Your action, like it or not, will have a great impact on our future relation.

Let me make something perfectly clear, we went into this for our friends and for our side. Prior to this, we knew nothing about NEW, and we really didn't care about you - hence we certainly had nothing against you. We came in with the intention to give you every bit of respect and treat you with every bit of honour and dignity we could. We hoped you would do the same to us. Instead, you and other people from your alliance have constantly insulted us, posted ignorant comments and even threats. We have tried to logically address your concerns and attempt to reconcile with you, but clearly, YOU seem completely uninterested in having good relations with us, because YOU keep bringing up this kind of cr*p and further disrespecting us in this war.

So if you think we might have bad relations after this war, you only need to look at yourself to see who is to blame.

[mhawk]

You will be judged by us

I find it hard to articulate how arrogant and pathetic that is scm.

[Starcraftmazter]

I find it hard to articulate how arrogant and pathetic that is scm.

How is it arrogant and pathetic? Suryanto tan was clearly implying (willingly or otherwise) that we cannot judge them by their insults and disrespectful attitude to us, simply because they have been nice to everyone else, and so we should completely take it up the rump. This will not stand. If they choose to disrespect us so, then we will defend ourselves - we are entitled to this right.

What problem you have with this, I do not know. Are implying we have no right to judge our opponents? Are you implying they are above us?

[neneko]

I find it hard to articulate how arrogant and pathetic that is scm.

Not taken out of context the slightest bit right? He said it's up to them to decide what they think about NEW so how NEW behaved to others doesn't really matter.

How you find this arrogant is hard for me to grasp but then again, how you can call anyone arrogant is beyond me.

edited for clarity

Edited May 8, 2009 by neneko

[arhctheshark]

I find it hard to articulate how arrogant and pathetic that is scm.

Maybe I misinterpreted the context of that line, but I believe judging an alliance is something everyone does. For example, you're judging our actions right now. But, again I'm not analyzing peoples posts sentence by sentence.

[mhawk]

How is it arrogant and pathetic? Suryanto tan was clearly implying (willingly or otherwise) that we cannot judge them by their insults and disrespectful attitude to us, simply because they have been nice to everyone else, and so we should completely take it up the rump. This will not stand. If they choose to disrespect us so, then we will defend ourselves - we are entitled to this right.

What problem you have with this, I do not know. Are implying we have no right to judge our opponents? Are you implying they are above us?

I'm saying you come cruising on in to a kid getting held down and punched by several other kids, you run over proud to partake in a fight you have no real issue in (you don't know the enemy nor have obligation to fight) aside from those kids are from your classroom and that kid is from another classroom. As the others hold him down you run over and kick him in the head proud of your accomplishment for the world to see, as that kid flips you off you look down at him and state you're going to judge him for his actions and it is up to him to be respectful to you if they want to be friends with you after this beat down.

Edited May 8, 2009 by mhawk

[neneko]

I'm saying you come cruising on in to a kid getting held down and punched by several other kids, you run over proud to partake in a fight you have no real issue in (you don't know the enemy nor have obligation to fight) aside from those kids are from your classroom and that kid is from another classroom. As the others hold him down you run over and kick him in the head proud of your accomplishment for the world to see, as that kid flips you off you look down at him and state you're going to judge him for his actions and it is up to him to be respectful to you if they want to be friends with you after this beat down.

Except that's nothing like this situation. NEW went into this war by their own free will in defence of their friends. The people they attacked had friends too that attacked NEW back, DF was one of these friends. By your logic nobody should be able to be respectful to the other side in a war. If NEW doesn't want to give DF any respect, fine but then DF probably isn't going to show them any respect either. That's all there is to it so stop trying to spin it.

Edited May 8, 2009 by neneko

[Starcraftmazter]

I'm saying you come cruising on in to a kid getting held down and punched by several other kids, you run over proud to partake in a fight you have no real issue in (you don't know the enemy nor have obligation to fight) aside from those kids are from your classroom and that kid is from another classroom. As the others hold him down you run over and kick him in the head proud of your accomplishment for the world to see, as that kid flips you off you look down at him and state you're going to judge him for his actions and it is up to him to be respectful to you if they want to be friends with you after this beat down.

Haha.

Okey

1. NEW was doing very well in this war (still is) before we came. To say they were being punched by several other kids is very bad analogy. A better one to say is that they were in a fight with several kids, but 3/4 of those other kids were also fighting much bigger kids. In fact this is not a fight just involving new, not even our two classes - but entire schools.

2. If that's your analogy for what we're doing, then what's your analogy for attacking Soldier when they were your protectorate? A couple of parents getting drunk and abusing their children by punching them in the face? Hypocrisy much?

3. Suryanto tan is the one who brought up the matter of judging. I shall re-iterate myself by posting to you a question: Are we not allowed to defend ourselves against unfair accusations and rebut flawed points? What do you expect us to do, sit here while NEW verbally abuses us?

Edited May 8, 2009 by Starcraftmazter

[mhawk]

Except that's nothing like this situation. NEW went into this war by their own free will in defence of their friends. The people they attacked had friends too that attacked NEW back, DF was one of these friends. By your logic nobody should be able to be respectful to the other side in a war. If NEW doesn't want to give DF any respect, fine but then DF probably isn't going to show them any respect either. That's all there is to it so stop trying to spin it.

That is a pretty bad reconfiguration of my analogy.

"By your logic nobody should be able to be respectful to the other side in a war."

What I'm saying is the way things play out and obligations we sign lead us to where we are, by some measure this is an act of fate how the cards play out. When we signed our treaty with NPO it certainly wasn't understood this would mean we'd be at war with mk nor would we attack avalanche. Yet due to treaty and prior obligations thats how the cards fell, and their friends fell onto us. This situation is different in that there was no prior obligation. In a sense it might be a cheap philosophical difference to scapegoat a decision by stating your word and honor bound you to partake in an action regardless the consequences, indeed that is an argument to make. However there is a difference in what this means to NEW and they have stated that this war feels different to them, because it is different. DF had no real reason to come into a fight that by all means was already decided. They had no prior obligation and therefore to new it doesnt feel as if this was just part of a chain reaction of fate, but rather an alliance choosing to help destroy another alliance. Note there is a difference in how it feels to be matched up with an opponent due to obligation as opposed to matched up by choice of one party. I'm fairly sure from my talks with new this feels less like an enemy soldier across the field and more like a robber breaking in with a gun. Sure they are both performing the same actions and each has their own reasoning, but that doesn't change how it feels to NEW. My comment to SCM was in regards to him stating he would judge them for being mad about this action. I'd have hoped he'd understand that how he choose to enter the war was distinctly different from any other alliance on NEW and he'd have some empathy to see it from their side.

[mhawk]

Haha.

Okey

1. NEW was doing very well in this war (still is) before we came. To say they were being punched by several other kids is very bad analogy. A better one to say is that they were in a fight with several kids, but 3/4 of those other kids were also fighting much bigger kids. In fact this is not a fight just involving new, not even our two classes - but entire schools.

2. If that's your analogy for what we're doing, then what's your analogy for attacking Soldier when they were your protectorate? A couple of parents getting drunk and abusing their children by punching them in the face? Hypocrisy much?

3. Suryanto tan is the one who brought up the matter of judging. I shall re-iterate myself by posting to you a question: Are we not allowed to defend ourselves against unfair accusations and rebut flawed points? What do you expect us to do, sit here while NEW verbally abuses us?

I'd use the analogy of soldier as a kid that lied about some very important things and received a small spanking for it. Indeed just one attack. We then spent considerable hours rebuilding them, helping where possible, provided advisors and all our guides/resources to them. Your comparison to our actions and your actions lacks the critical link of obligation. We had an obligation to protect and ensure the health of our protectorate, their choice to lie and deceive required some action, re adjustment and rebuilding which we did. DF on the other hand had no obligation to partake in your actions.

[foxodi]

However there is a difference in what this means to NEW and they have stated that this war feels different to them, because it is different. DF had no real reason to come into a fight that by all means was already decided. They had no prior obligation and therefore to new it doesnt feel as if this was just part of a chain reaction of fate, but rather an alliance choosing to help destroy another alliance. Note there is a difference in how it feels to be matched up with an opponent due to obligation as opposed to matched up by choice of one party. I'm fairly sure from my talks with new this feels less like an enemy soldier across the field and more like a robber breaking in with a gun. Sure they are both performing the same actions and each has their own reasoning, but that doesn't change how it feels to NEW. My comment to SCM was in regards to him stating he would judge them for being mad about this action. I'd have hoped he'd understand that how he choose to enter the war was distinctly different from any other alliance on NEW and he'd have some empathy to see it from their side.

Being mad doesn't mean you cannot be respectful.

[the damned]

It seems that NEW is doing rather well for yourselves. Even if you guys end up losing this war i can only see things going well for you.

As far as DF goes, can you really blame them for looking for a good fight?

A bandwagoner looks for an easy target, not a midsized alliance that can take on three and look for more.

Good luck to both and may the loser gain white peace and the loser a new (lol) friend.

[Starcraftmazter]

I'd use the analogy of soldier as a kid that lied about some very important things and received a small spanking for it. Indeed just one attack. We then spent considerable hours rebuilding them, helping where possible, provided advisors and all our guides/resources to them. Your comparison to our actions and your actions lacks the critical link of obligation. We had an obligation to protect and ensure the health of our protectorate, their choice to lie and deceive required some action, re adjustment and rebuilding which we did. DF on the other hand had no obligation to partake in your actions.

Oh really? Well I for one am against corporal punishment, and I believe so is the law. Furthermore, from what Facetten tells me, you promised but never sent any aid, just did forced tech deals.

I can't believe your further hypocicy in this mhawk. I have never had anything against you (even though I clearly do against TPF), and I appreciate all that you did for me in the NpO-FIST fiasco, however can you not see that our perception of what's happening is opinionised? You think you did what's right for Soldier, but I cry BS and say it is beyond words dishonourable to attack your own protectorate - the alliance you had an obligation to protect. As an alliance, they did nothing to you, it was just two government members lying, and you punished everyone for it - even though you promised to protect them.

We had no obligation to attack NEW, but this is simply schematics. We could have easily gotten IPA to DoW NEW based on their GR MDoAP and then tagged along with our MADP. There is a perfectly legal way for us to get into this, but it is just stupid, silly and pointless to engage in such elawyering. We did what we believe is best, what we believe is just, we chose to protect our friends and allies' friends. This is no walk in the park, NEW is doing twice the damage to us that NATO did, day by day. They even counterattacked us - which means they had nations (quite a few of them), not in anarchy. This more than proves, in my onion, that they did not have it even remotely as bad as you claim, and that our entry is as remotely unnecessary as you so claim. In fact we are doing quite a bit for CCC/CD. If you do not believe me, ask them yourself.

We respect them and their war effort, we even congratulate them. The difference is, they have failed to do so to us. Why is this a reason for us to give them empathy? NEW have already said they have no problem with the legality of our entry, so what's the deal? How it will end? I have always been a supporter of white peace, we gave NATO white peace, I think it's pretty clear we will push for a similar deal with NEW, and I am saying this for the 3rd or 4th time. So really, what is their issue? They just keep insulting us to no end, I don't know how you can expect us to have no problem with this.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Starcraftmazter

[mhawk]

We respect them and their war effort, we even congratulate them. The difference is, they have failed to do so to us. Why is this a reason for us to give them empathy? NEW have already said they have no problem with the legality of our entry, so what's the deal? How it will end? I have always been a supporter of white peace, we gave NATO white peace, I think it's pretty clear we will push for a similar deal with NEW, and I am saying this for the 3rd or 4th time. So really, what is their issue? They just keep insulting us to no end, I don't know how you can expect us to have no problem with this.

There is no emperical truth to this matter. My opinion of this move is mine, if you want to justify it to yourself have fun and be proud of your accomplishment.

[neneko]

What I'm saying is the way things play out and obligations we sign lead us to where we are, by some measure this is an act of fate how the cards play out. When we signed our treaty with NPO it certainly wasn't understood this would mean we'd be at war with mk nor would we attack avalanche. Yet due to treaty and prior obligations thats how the cards fell, and their friends fell onto us.

With all due respect I strongly disagree with the foundation of your reasoning here. Unless your government grossly neglect its duties it should know pretty much exactly what signing a treaty would mean in the event of a war. When you for example signed a MADP with NPO you did that knowing that you'd have to support any offensive action they'd take. Saying that it is fate implies that treaties are signed on a whim or randomly and even if the treaty web might look chaotic I do not think that is the case. I think most alliances know exactly what every treaty they sign means and I don't have any pity for those that don't since that just mean they neglect their duties. Where a alliance is placed politically and therefore placed in a war is due to their own choices not fate.

This situation is different in that there was no prior obligation.

They had no prior obligation and therefore to new it doesnt feel as if this was just part of a chain reaction of fate, but rather an alliance choosing to help destroy another alliance.

As they have already stated they do actually have treaties linking them in but they choose to be honest and say that they want to help their friends. That's what honoring treaties is about so I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't see any reason to suspect DF would have any reason to want to destroy NEW either. As both sides have said in this thread this is the first time they have any contact at all so I don't see where your idea that DF want to destroy NEW comes from

However there is a difference in what this means to NEW and they have stated that this war feels different to them, because it is different. DF had no real reason to come into a fight that by all means was already decided.

I don't think this part of the fight were already decided but we'll say it was for now so I can point out to you that even if the fight was already decided it's still in their interest to help reduce the damage their friends are taking by comming to their friends aid if their goal is to help their friends. Since they stated that their reason for entering was to help their friends I don't see why they wouldn't enter the conflict.

My comment to SCM was in regards to him stating he would judge them for being mad about this action.

My comment to you on that was to point out that you misinterpreted it. What he said was that NEW should show some respect if they want to be met with respect by DF. It's hard to show respect to your enemy in a losing war, I agree, but you can hardly hold DF responsible for NEW not being respectful towards them.

[gantanX]

We respect them and their war effort, we even congratulate them. The difference is, they have failed to do so to us. Why is this a reason for us to give them empathy? NEW have already said they have no problem with the legality of our entry, so what's the deal? How it will end? I have always been a supporter of white peace, we gave NATO white peace, I think it's pretty clear we will push for a similar deal with NEW, and I am saying this for the 3rd or 4th time. So really, what is their issue? They just keep insulting us to no end, I don't know how you can expect us to have no problem with this.

I don't think there's any of NEW member insulted Dark Fist in this Thread..

you might want to reread the thread though..

[Starcraftmazter]

I don't think there's any of NEW member insulted Dark Fist in this Thread..

you might want to reread the thread though..

I can assure you I have read every single post, and I can assure you this has happened plenty of times - perhaps you ought to re-read the thread yourself.

[mhawk]

With all due respect I strongly disagree with the foundation of your reasoning here. Unless your government grossly neglect its duties it should know pretty much exactly what signing a treaty would mean in the event of a war. When you for example signed a MADP with NPO you did that knowing that you'd have to support any offensive action they'd take. Saying that it is fate implies that treaties are signed on a whim or randomly and even if the treaty web might look chaotic I do not think that is the case. I think most alliances know exactly what every treaty they sign means and I don't have any pity for those that don't since that just mean they neglect their duties. Where a alliance is placed politically and therefore placed in a war is due to their own choices not fate.

e why they wouldn't enter the conflict.

The point is you can not know for certain where you will fall. You may know you'll be fighting for them, but not who your bullets will be against. To claim you know who will be fighting you is grossly over exaggerating your predictive capabilities. Take DOOM for example, I doubt they could ever forsee how their treaty with molon labe would have a year later resulted in them fighting the NpO. Nor that I myself would be fighting MK, a treaty partner of NPO in an indirect defense of NPO. I hold no bitterness because there is a fog of war, to claim one can divine through that fog if they keep to their duties is misleading.

[gantanX]

I can assure you I have read every single post, and I can assure you this has happened plenty of times - perhaps you ought to re-read the thread yourself.

since you said there are plenty, it's easier for you to show me..don't you think so ?