SSSW18 Surrenders

[Rebel Virginia]

Rebel Virginia, I find it mildly hilarious that you of all people are making some of the points in this thread.

And why is that?

I certainly hope you don't consider tech trading, as part of terms, to be something new and evil. Gremlins pioneered this to the anger of the Hegemony, and in fact I believe the terms set out for SSSW18 are better than white peace. Why? Because white peace doesn't help foster a relationship and grow a defeated alliance. It cuts them loose on their own.

I never condemned tech trading as a term. I am simply stating that there would have been other ways to do this without given the NPO so much as an inch to validate their propaganda. Believe me, because of this some people are now beginning to believe it. Could they have not reached an agreement after a white peace was given? It would have achieved the same effect without assisting the NPO.

Guess what? I'm not.

As Matthew George said:

They entered a war and lost it. The very fact that they are only being given money for tech is a sign that good changes have indeed come because of Karma. If Karma actually does something wrong then feel free to speak up about it, but all this concern over such lenient peace terms is nothing more than crying wolf.

The propaganda war. This damages our side in the propaganda war. I am criticizing this mainly for the effect it will have on PR. People are gullible, and now more likely to give into lies than before because of it. As I said, if this were a different war I would usually have no issue with terms that simply require a set amount of tech deals.

One last thing, the attempted extortion. Nothing can justify that. Nothing. It is exactly the kind of term NPO would impose.

[kingzog]

People are gullible, and now more likely to give into lies than before because of it. As I said, if this were a different war I would usually have no issue with terms that simply require a set amount of tech deals.

The only people I see falling for the propaganda are those who were already predisposed to support the NPO's position on damn-near anything.

And you, of course. You haven't bought it, you're just facilitating it.

Thanks for that.

[Strykewolf]

In all honesty....if it wasn't for folks trying to pick it apart. They would have no ammo. And as it is; they're shooting blanks.

[Ragashingo]

The propaganda war. This damages our side in the propaganda war. I am criticizing this mainly for the effect it will have on PR. People are gullible, and now more likely to give into lies than before because of it. As I said, if this were a different war I would usually have no issue with terms that simply require a set amount of tech deals.

It helps us win the propaganda war by parroting the enemies propaganda?

I'd rather you come back over to our side and fight their propaganda with the truth. Thirty days of tech deals are a change for the better and are far far more lenient than the terms their side usually gave out.

[Ragashingo]

In all honesty....if it wasn't for folks trying to pick it apart. They would have no ammo. And as it is; they're shooting blanks.

My policy is to never let the enemy point his gun at me, no matter what kind of ammunition I think he has it loaded with.

[Rebel Virginia]

The only people I see falling for the propaganda are those who were already predisposed to support the NPO's position on damn-near anything.

And you, of course. You haven't bought it, you're just facilitating it.

Thanks for that.

Actually there were some likely to break from the NPO after this war, and I can confirm that. Rather, and because of this, than breaking from them, chances are they are now going to be going back to them instead of building relations with the Karma alliances. Also, how do you know that people are not buying into it? How do you know what people are thinking? Is it because no one is saying anything? Well, have I got news for you. Remember back when it was only Starfox101, West of Eden, and myself protesting the actions of the NPO? I'm sure you know just as well as I do that we weren't the only ones who thought that, despite others being quiet. Think about that for a moment.

It helps us win the propaganda war by parroting the enemies propaganda?

I'd rather you come back over to our side and fight their propaganda with the truth. Thirty days of tech deals are a change for the better and are far far more lenient than the terms their side usually gave out.

Parroting their propaganda? Gone over to their side? You've got to be kidding me. You're using the exact same lines that were used against me so long ago. You're starting to sound exactly like it, and you don't see it.

Furthermore, you're ignoring everything that I am saying. Never have I said that Karma is the same product, but just a different name. I do not see any alliance on the Karma side, well, the vast majority at least, ever imposing cruel and unusual terms. My argument is that by failing to give white peace to SSSW18 you are giving the NPO just a little bit, all they need, to twist to get people on the fence, who are less informed and more vulnerable to misinformation, to become sympathetic to them. I am criticizing this not because I feel these terms are overly harsh, but rather because this is simply a stupid move on Karma's part, for its image that is.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Ragashingo]

Actually there were some likely to break from the NPO after this war, and I can confirm that. Rather, and because of this, than breaking from them, chances are they are now going to be going back to them instead of building relations with the Karma alliances.

We can't stop people from going back to the NPO because they are too dumb to see the truth. But you can put the truth out before them instead of crying wolf like most of the enemy is doing.

[Rebel Virginia]

We can't stop people from going back to the NPO because they are too dumb to see the truth. But you can put the truth out before them instead of crying wolf like most of the enemy is doing.

Well then, tell me why SSSW18 ought to be forced into doing tech deals? But more than that, how about we all stop pretending that this is just about tech deals and start acknowledging that MOON tried to extort $600 million from SSSW18? I don't know if you have noticed yet, but I have a problem with that.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Hydro]

I don't have logs of the extortion, but I do have logs of people confirming that the extortion took place, and that Karma had to intervene and convince MOON not to demand $600 mil? Would those suffice?

And also, they were not trying to play good cop-bad cop, because if you're going to be offering white peace common sense dictates that such a game wouldn't be necessary.

You seem to be assuming that they should've offered white peace the second time, which they are under no obligation to do so. What they offer as a sovereign alliance to another alliance is entirely up to them and shouldn't be up to Karma; I find it really rather ironic that you seem to think that all alliances fighting on the side of Karma should bow down to the wishes of Karma in this matter, when that kind of pupeteering is what they're supposedly fighting against. Until logs are released of MOON's negotiations and not just logs of what someone else is saying happened, we really can't be sure of MOON's motives. Personally, it seems entirely plausible to me that MOON might've been playing good cop-bad cop- not with SSSW18 mind you, but with Karma.

[Rebel Virginia]

You seem to be assuming that they should've offered white peace the second time, which they are under no obligation to do so. What they offer as a sovereign alliance to another alliance is entirely up to them and shouldn't be up to Karma; I find it really rather ironic that you seem to think that all alliances fighting on the side of Karma should bow down to the wishes of Karma in this matter, when that kind of pupeteering is what they're supposedly fighting against. Until logs are released of MOON's negotiations and not just logs of what someone else is saying happened, we really can't be sure of MOON's motives. Personally, it seems entirely plausible to me that MOON might've been playing good cop-bad cop- not with SSSW18 mind you, but with Karma.

I am assuming nothing. I am under no delusions that victorious alliances owe defeated alliances anything, but is my opinion that white peace was warranted, even if rejected the first time in order to stand with allies so long as possible. As for the 'irony,' where have I ever said alliances should turn over their sovereignty to Karma? You're putting words in my mouth, friend.

Also, logs are not needed. I have multiple accounts on both sides that MOON was attempting to extort money from SSSW18. To say that was just a good cop-bad cop routine is just absurd. Why would they go through so much trouble just to get someone to agree to white peace? If people are interested in peace and offered white peace, there is no need to haggle with them. Really, it's not a difficult concept to understand.

[Ragashingo]

Parroting their propaganda? Gone over to their side? You've got to be kidding me. You're using the exact same lines that were used against me so long ago. You're starting to sound exactly like it, and you don't see it.

Used against you by who? If you're trying to suggest that I'm starting to sound like the NPO then I feel obligated to warn you away from that line of thought. It will not end well for you. Now, onto the important issues.

Never have I said that Karma is the same product, but just a different name. I do not see any alliance on the Karma side, well, the vast majority at least, ever imposing cruel and unusual terms.

Good. Because thats where the truth is, and thats what I'd like to see repeated most often.

My argument is that by failing to give white peace to SSSW18 you are giving the NPO just a little bit, all they need, to twist to get people on the fence, who are less informed and more vulnerable to misinformation, to become sympathetic to them. I am criticizing this not because I feel these terms are overly harsh, but rather because this is simply a stupid move on Karma's part, for its image that is.

Yes, the NPO will do that kind of thing. I wrote a nice lament about this very fact in response to Vladimir yesterday. But do you expect to inform those people by criticizing your own side?

In my view you inform people by informing them. Tell them why something less than white peace does not mean Karma is suddenly evil. Tell them that war is dangerous and has consequences but that Karma wants those consequences to fairly fit the crime committed.

In the long term I believe that this "white peace for everyone" movement is actually a bit harmful because we both know that there are a few alliances that do not deserve and will not get white peace. Better to keep expectation within reason so that when the war finally does end we don't have anybody saying "but you gave everyone else white peace."

Well then, tell me why SSSW18 ought to be forced into doing tech deals? But more than that, how about we all stop pretending that this is just about tech deals and start acknowledging that MOON tried to extort $600 million from SSSW18? I don't know if you have noticed yet, but I have a problem with that.

I don't know the whole story so I'll take your word for it that MOON tried this. I'll also note that it did not happen. Others have said that Karma stepped in to prevent it from happening. If thats true then it is a score for Karma, and thats what we should be presenting to those misinformed people.

[Taget]

Sssw18 having a bill of rights cannot restrict it's membership from posting in this thread. That said I'll just strongly encourage any members reading this to take great care before deciding to step into this morass.

[Ragashingo]

I find it really rather ironic that you seem to think that all alliances fighting on the side of Karma should bow down to the wishes of Karma in this matter, when that kind of pupeteering is what they're supposedly fighting against.

Excuse me, but no it isn't. Karma is fighting against the extremely harsh practices that the NPO made standard. It seems entirely consistent to me for Karma to step in and prevent an alliance fighting under its banner from implementing NPOish peace terms.

People keep worrying that Karma will turn into a new group of alliances that rule the game. I for one have no problem with it as long as the new ruling group enforces good honorable practices among the CN world. (And before you ask, we're going by my definition of good honorable practices.)

[Strykewolf]

I am assuming nothing. I am under no delusions that victorious alliances owe defeated alliances anything, but is my opinion that white peace was warranted, even if rejected the first time in order to stand with allies so long as possible. As for the 'irony,' where have I ever said alliances should turn over their sovereignty to Karma? You're putting words in my mouth, friend.

Also, logs are not needed. I have multiple accounts on both sides that MOON was attempting to extort money from SSSW18. To say that was just a good cop-bad cop routine is just absurd. Why would they go through so much trouble just to get someone to agree to white peace? If people are interested in peace and offered white peace, there is no need to haggle with them. Really, it's not a difficult concept to understand.

RV....unless you were actually in the final talks, I'd not trust a whole lot of what you may have 'heard'. And your name was not in that room.

Peace talks are just that....talks. An evolving exchange of comments, wants, needs, rants, and such that lead...in general...to an acceptable resolution to both sides. You have been 'around' enough to know that...though, it appears that you need a reminder.

[Rebel Virginia]

Used against you by who? If you're trying to suggest that I'm starting to sound like the NPO then I feel obligated to warn you away from that line of thought. It will not end well for you. Now, onto the important issues.

I take it this is sarcasm, friend?

Good. Because thats where the truth is, and thats what I'd like to see repeated most often.

It does not change the fact that an injustice, the attempted extortion, did occur. The truth must not be hidden, as unpleasant as it may be.

Yes, the NPO will do that kind of thing. I wrote a nice lament about this very fact in response to Vladimir yesterday. But do you expect to inform those people by criticizing your own side?

In my view you inform people by informing them. Tell them why something less than white peace does not mean Karma is suddenly evil. Tell them that war is dangerous and has consequences but that Karma wants those consequences to fairly fit the crime committed.

I agree that consequences should fit the crime, but what crime has SSSW18 committed here? They honored a treaty and defended their ally until they could do so no more. This is not the NPO we're talking about, or even the GGA. This is SSSW18, an alliance that in its entire relationship has done absolutely nothing. I need a crime!

In the long term I believe that this "white peace for everyone" movement is actually a bit harmful because we both know that there are a few alliances that do not deserve and will not get white peace. Better to keep expectation within reason so that when the war finally does end we don't have anybody saying "but you gave everyone else white peace."

I am not for white peace for everyone. I am simply in favor of white peace for those who have committed no discernible crime. NPO, IRON, GGA, Valhalla, TPF, etc. have all done many wrongs in their time. They deserve terms. SSSW18? What has it done besides honor its treaty? For crying out loud, even NATO, an alliance that has done much to support the NPO and its actions recieved white peace. Why not SSSW18?

I don't know the whole story so I'll take your word for it that MOON tried this. I'll also note that it did not happen. Others have said that Karma stepped in to prevent it from happening. If thats true then it is a score for Karma, and thats what we should be presenting to those misinformed people.

I am well aware that Karma stopped MOON, and I am not criticizing Karma. I am railing against MOON. It does not matter that they failed in their extortion attempt, as it does not change the fact that they even so much as contemplated such a thing. They held a gun to SSSW18's head and demanded an exorbitant about of reparations. Reparations for defending an ally. I will not allow people to forget, or even ignore, what was done here. This kind of behavior simply cannot be allowed.

RV....unless you were actually in the final talks, I'd not trust a whole lot of what you may have 'heard'. And your name was not in that room.

Peace talks are just that....talks. An evolving exchange of comments, wants, needs, rants, and such that lead...in general...to an acceptable resolution to both sides. You have been 'around' enough to know that...though, it appears that you need a reminder.

I have seen the logs, and I have heard stories from reputable sources on both sides of this issue. I believe I am informed enough to have an opinion on this matter.

Now, as for peace talks, I know what they are. They occur when both sides have some sort of leverage, and begin should begin reasonable. I also know what extortion is. It is when one party has a the other in a position where they cannot argue or defend themselves, and then makes unreasonable demands under the threat of harm. That is what happened here, and that is what MOON did. There is no denying that simple truth.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Ragashingo]

I take it this is sarcasm, friend?

Still not kidding. If you really want to discuss this further find me on IRC.

I agree that consequences should fit the crime, but what crime has SSSW18 committed here? They honored a treaty and defended their ally until they could do so no more. This is not the NPO we're talking about, or even the GGA. This is SSSW18, an alliance that in its entire relationship has done absolutely nothing. I need a crime!

Ultimately this war is against three years of unjustified NPO aggression. SSSW18 is guilty of supporting the NPO in their final hour no matter how they were drawn into the war. Is their punishment consistent with others who were more involved? Maybe not. But it is still an extremely lenient punishment.

I am well aware that Karma stopped MOON, and I am not criticizing Karma. I am railing against MOON. It does not matter that they failed in their extortion attempt, as it does not change the fact that they even so much as contemplated such a thing. They held a gun to SSSW18's head and demanded an exorbitant about of reparations. Reparations for defending an ally. I will not allow people to forget, or even ignore, what was done here. This kind of behavior simply cannot be allowed.

And it wasn't allowed.

How long do you want to hold their feet to the fire for a crime that was averted?

[mattski133]

I am well aware that Karma stopped MOON, and I am not criticizing Karma. I am railing against MOON. It does not matter that they failed in their extortion attempt, as it does not change the fact that they even so much as contemplated such a thing. They held a gun to SSSW18's head and demanded an exorbitant about of reparations. Reparations for defending an ally. I will not allow people to forget, or even ignore, what was done here. This kind of behavior simply cannot be allowed.

We certainly took to heart the counsel of our friends in Karma. We listened and changed our stance. MOON never told SSSW18 that offer was final, as you are implying with your allegations of extorsion. Regardless, we cut that number in half, in one day, before removing it altogether and coming to terms that all parties signed on.

Also, they were the aggressors; extorsion by the defenders is a pretty strong charge, considering how many times they told us they would fight us to the death. You keep calling SSSW18 this fringe alliance that is all roses and tulips but seem to forget they were directly allied to and therefore enabled the imperialism and oppression that NPO represents. I think Athens had something to say about that earlier.

GRAN and VA were undoubtedly fringe alliances, and they got their white peace.

I have seen the logs, and I have heard stories from reputable sources on both sides of this issue. I believe I am informed enough to have an opinion on this matter.

You're not as educated as those who fought this war.

Now, as for peace talks, I know what they are. They occur when both sides have some sort of leverage, and begin should begin reasonable. I also know what extortion is. It is when one party has a the other in a position where they cannot argue or defend themselves, and then makes unreasonable demands under the threat of harm. That is what happened here, and that is what MOON did. There is no denying that simple truth.

Defenders cannot extort by definition.

[Hydro]

I am assuming nothing. I am under no delusions that victorious alliances owe defeated alliances anything, but is my opinion that white peace was warranted, even if rejected the first time in order to stand with allies so long as possible. As for the 'irony,' where have I ever said alliances should turn over their sovereignty to Karma? You're putting words in my mouth, friend.

Also, logs are not needed. I have multiple accounts on both sides that MOON was attempting to extort money from SSSW18. To say that was just a good cop-bad cop routine is just absurd. Why would they go through so much trouble just to get someone to agree to white peace? If people are interested in peace and offered white peace, there is no need to haggle with them. Really, it's not a difficult concept to understand.

You certainly haven't said that an alliance should give up its sovereignty, I'll grant you that, but you seem to believe that because an enemy alliance honors their treaties, fights for their alliances and isn't one of the "prime henchman" they shouldn't have terms emplaced on them. While you won't hear any disputes from me about that being honorable and commendable behavior, as far as I'm concerned any enemy that raises arms against my alliance, regardless of how honorable he/she may or may not be, should be punished accordingly. Were I in MOON's boots I'd feel that I'd given my enemy a very lenient offer (I take exception to the apology they seem to have requested because that's going a bit too far) once and that this courtesy shouldn't be extended a second time save for extreme circumstances. Asserting that MOON or anyone else should extend white peace to an enemy simply because they honored their treaties, were in the periphery of the NPO and because of the nature of this war is absurd and is a severe limitation on an alliances ability to flex their sovereignty. Your tacit support of the notion of unconditional white peace for smaller alliances is what I rail against, because at the end of the day an alliance that offers this is basically giving up their soviergn right to act independently and submitting to your notion of Karma, which in my opinion is not right.

They wouldn't go to so much trouble if they were looking for white peace (I admit I haven't read the whole thread so I'm assuming that this is what MOON did the second time around), they would go to so much trouble for getting some kind of deal out of it, which is precisely what they got.

edit: bad quoting skills

Edited May 3, 2009 by Hydro

[Rebel Virginia]

Still not kidding. If you really want to discuss this further find me on IRC.

I would, but I'm a busy man with postwar plans.

Ultimately this war is against three years of unjustified NPO aggression. SSSW18 is guilty of supporting the NPO in their final hour no matter how they were drawn into the war. Is their punishment consistent with others who were more involved? Maybe not. But it is still an extremely lenient punishment.

Most on the Karma side were once tied to the NPO, and nearly half on the Hegemony are there because they couldn't get away fast enough. I won't deny that it is lenient, very lenient, but I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this.

And it wasn't allowed.

How long do you want to hold their feet to the fire for a crime that was averted?

Still doesn't change the fact it was attempted, and speaks volumes for MOON's character.

[Ragashingo]

mattski133:

We certainly took to heart the counsel of our friends in Karma. We listened and changed our stance. MOON never told SSSW18 that offer was final, as you are implying with your allegations of extorsion. Regardless, we cut that number in half, in one day, before removing it altogether and coming to terms that all parties signed on.

Thanks for listening.

Defenders cannot extort by definition.

Be careful on this one. It is certainly possible for a smaller alliance to attack a larger alliance, lose the war, but not be granted peace by the larger alliance unless unreasonable terms are met. That would be extortion.

Rebel Virginia:

Most on the Karma side were once tied to the NPO, and nearly half on the Hegemony are there because they couldn't get away fast enough.

The leader of my current alliance more or less kicked off the Great War and I once called him an enemy and I once called for the NpO do disband. I now call Tyga a friend and the NpO is one of the more honorable alliances around. Things change and at some point the past must be left in the past.

Yes we could permanently condemn each alliance that supported the NPO over the past three years, but that would not help us change the world for the better.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Ragashingo

[mkoricic]

I have no comment on any of the allegations or happenings in this post. I do want to point out that my alliance signed nothing, stating we fight for Karma or that Karma would make decisions for us in this war, we signed a treaty to defend Athens. Their motives are their own, DICE fights for our friends.

[Strykewolf]

Oh give it a rest. You're fishing for something that just is not there.

[Ragashingo]

I have no comment on any of the allegations or happenings in this post. I do want to point out that my alliance signed nothing, stating we fight for Karma or that Karma would make decisions for us in this war, we signed a treaty to defend Athens. Their motives are their own, DICE fights for our friends.

The only thing I'd ask is that your alliance considers the advice the Karma leadership gives you. They all seem to be good people and I don't think they've steered the ship in the wrong direction yet. But beyond that I think you are completely right to be allowed to make your own decisions.

[The AUT]

RV, your vision of Karma is slightly skewed. If its purpose was to throw white peace and flower petals everywhere, it probably would be called something more along the lines of Sunshine Incorporated. Karma (to my interpretation) was formed to topple the Hegemony and establish a freer Bob. Not universal white peace.

Wanting 600 million in reparations from an alliance that had been beaten like SSSW18 isn't reasonable by any means. That kind of blockbuster term has wrecked alliances in the past to the brink of disbandment.

[Samuel Houston]

Wanting 600 million in reparations from an alliance that had been beaten like SSSW18 isn't reasonable by any means. That kind of blockbuster term has wrecked alliances in the past to the brink of disbandment.

You really have no idea what is going on. Your conclusions are ridiculous. No one is being harmed here, and no one is remotely close to being disbanded.