What Happens Next

[Kindom of Goon]

So KARMA is now the justice system of CN? If KARMA aren't they will be just commiting the same crime of NPO.

Eg: In real life if someone kill a friend of yours, do you have the right to kill the murderer? No, if you do so then you will be judged by murder doesn't matter if the person that you killed was good or bad.

Is Karma going to use eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth law?

Read above.

The problem with your argument here is there is no law in CN, and there is no independant justice system and there is no one else to make them pay for some of their acts, so the only way to it is to do it yourself. A more suitable real life comparison would be if you were in a villiage somewhere with no laws or a justice system, someone kills a friend of yours, do you just let them walk away because by killing/punishing them you've commited the same or similar deed?

Now personally I would not pile on too many harsh terms for them since on a personal level they've not done anything directly to me, but I wouldn't exactly shed a tear if some alliances used this as an opportunity for a bit of retribution (though I still would never support and don't expect to see any P/EZI, disbandment, viceroys etc).

Karma is not the justice system of CN, there is no justice system for CN, there are only alliances and groups of alliances who seek justice for themselves, no one has claimed otherwise.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Kindom of Goon

[Tygaland]

So KARMA is now the justice system of CN? If KARMA aren't they will be just commiting the same crime of NPO.

Eg: In real life if someone kill a friend of yours, do you have the right to kill the murderer? No, if you do so then you will be judged by murder doesn't matter if the person that you killed was good or bad.

Is Karma going to use eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth law?

It was an analogy, you dolt. You stated that if Karma implemented any punitive terms against the NPO then they were "as bad as" the NPO. My analogy shows that is complete crap. That is probably why you avoid facing what I actually said and instead babbled on with the same crap you did earlier.

If, in real-life, someone kills your friend and the killer is caught and punished. Are you as bad as the killer for being pleased to see that person brought to justice? If capital punishment was the sentence that person received, does that make you as bad as the person that killed your friend?

You see, the NPO has killed a lot of alliances over its reign. It has killed off a lot of players too. Do you see Karma asking for the same in return to the NPO?

Stop deluding yourself, it is embarrassing. Karma is not the justice system of the Cyberverse, it is a group of people who have had enough of the NPO being judge and jury in the Cyberverse.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Tygaland

[Chief Savage Man]

It was an analogy, you dolt. You stated that if Karma implemented any punitive terms against the NPO then they were "as bad as" the NPO. My analogy shows that is complete crap. That is probably why you avoid facing what I actually said and instead babbled on with the same crap you did earlier.

If, in real-life, someone kills your friend and the killer is caught and punished. Are you as bad as the killer for being pleased to see that person brought to justice? If capital punishment was the sentence that person received, does that make you as bad as the person that killed your friend?

You see, the NPO has killed a lot of alliances over its reign. It has killed off a lot of players too. Do you see Karma asking for the same in return to the NPO?

Stop deluding yourself, it is embarrassing.

We're gonna have to get used to it Tyga. I think that will the common thread among the anti-Karma troll squads for at least a month.

[Qaianna]

(trimmed to address the bit that made me laugh)

You see, the NPO has killed a lot of alliances over its reign. It has killed off a lot of players too. Do you see Karma asking for the same in return to the NPO?

On the individual member side..um, yes.

And now here comes a monkey wrench to throw in another idea borne of seeming bloodthirsty vengeance ... someone thinking more of blood was insisting that damages should be paid to repay all that was 'stolen'. So ... how do you compute this? And don't forget ... not everything the New Pacific Order has done has been unjust. To insist its actions are by definition universally evil is a great fallacy in and of itself at best, although I'm more inclined to call it crass dehumanisation.

[D34th]

It was an analogy, you dolt. You stated that if Karma implemented any punitive terms against the NPO then they were "as bad as" the NPO. My analogy shows that is complete crap. That is probably why you avoid facing what I actually said and instead babbled on with the same crap you did earlier.

If, in real-life, someone kills your friend and the killer is caught and punished. Are you as bad as the killer for being pleased to see that person brought to justice? If capital punishment was the sentence that person received, does that make you as bad as the person that killed your friend?

You see, the NPO has killed a lot of alliances over its reign. It has killed off a lot of players too. Do you see Karma asking for the same in return to the NPO?

Stop deluding yourself, it is embarrassing. Karma is not the justice system of the Cyberverse, it is a group of people who have had enough of the NPO being judge and jury in the Cyberverse.

You used a analogy and I used an example, talking about my example yet, who give the punishment isn't you but the justice system so you aren't bad as the murderer because you did nothing, when Karma says: "This war is a punishment for what NPO did" Karma is claiming the rule of Judge of CN.

I'm not saying that NPO is innocent, I'm not a dolt as you said, but I think that who are being deluded is people who believes that Karma side is better than Hegemony side, poeple forgot that near half of Karma alliances were part of Hegemony until a month or two ago.

You have your opinion and I have mine so we can agree in disagree without you call me dolt because if I remember correctly the principle of Tygaism was mutual respect.

Chief Savage Man, funny to see a Vox member calling me troll because I have a different opinion about a matter, really ironic.

Edited May 2, 2009 by D34th

[ztilbeht]

The New Pacific Order must be devastated to the point that it cannot reclaim any sort of relevance and it's leaders who abused cybernations for the past three years must be punished. That is all that is necessary, although a wary eye should be kept on them to insure they do not rise again to a position of dominance.

Those who supported and allied with them should be let off with white peace. While they have done plenty of bad things, they were merely pawns in the Pacific's game.

Edited May 2, 2009 by ztilbeht

[Lyria]

Seriously why don't we actually end the war before we start rambling on and on about what's going to happen after?

edit: and really, that doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon. the peanut gallery calling for Pacifican blood or claming Karma will be no better might have to keep quiet for a little while.

Edited May 2, 2009 by El Pilchinator

[Tygaland]

On the individual member side..um, yes.

And now here comes a monkey wrench to throw in another idea borne of seeming bloodthirsty vengeance ... someone thinking more of blood was insisting that damages should be paid to repay all that was 'stolen'. So ... how do you compute this? And don't forget ... not everything the New Pacific Order has done has been unjust. To insist its actions are by definition universally evil is a great fallacy in and of itself at best, although I'm more inclined to call it crass dehumanisation.

When has Karma said they wanted all money "stolen" returned? Also, where did I say everything that the NPO did was evil?

[Tygaland]

You used a analogy and I used an example, talking about my example yet, who give the punishment isn't you but the justice system so you aren't bad as the murderer because you did nothing, when Karma says: "This war is a punishment for what NPO did" Karma is claiming the rule of Judge of CN.

You do realise what an analogy is, right? You claimed any punishment of the NPO makes Karma as bad as the NPO. I asked you, using an analogy, if you believed that was really the case. You didn't address that at all and took the analogy as a claim that Karma was judge and jury. Karma is not judge and jury, but, should they be victorious, should be able to ensure the NPO is adequately subdued.

I'm not saying that NPO is innocent, I'm not a dolt as you said, but I think that who are being deluded is people who believes that Karma side is better than Hegemony side, poeple forgot that near half of Karma alliances were part of Hegemony until a month or two ago.

Problem is, you have no evidence to support your assertion. You aren't saying the NPO is innocent. You are saying that they should not be held accountable for what they have done under the pretense that any such punishment renders Karma "just as bad" as the NPO.

You have your opinion and I have mine so we can agree in disagree without you call me dolt because if I remember correctly the principle of Tygaism was mutual respect.

Tygaism is also mentions honest criticism.

[D34th]

You do realise what an analogy is, right? You claimed any punishment of the NPO makes Karma as bad as the NPO. I asked you, using an analogy, if you believed that was really the case. You didn't address that at all and took the analogy as a claim that Karma was judge and jury. Karma is not judge and jury, but, should they be victorious, should be able to ensure the NPO is adequately subdued.

Yeah I know what an analogy is, That's why I asked you if Karma was legal system of CN, because as Legal System punished someone for "abducting a person and locking them in a dungeon", Karma is punishing NPO for being evil. That's how an apology works right?

I said Karma was the judge only. Power is the jury of CN, so why Karma judged NPO guilty only now? Why not a year ago? Because now they have enough power to do so. "Might makes right" remember? Doesn't matter who use it, NPO or Karma.

Problem is, you have no evidence to support your assertion. You aren't saying the NPO is innocent. You are saying that they should not be held accountable for what they have done under the pretense that any such punishment renders Karma "just as bad" as the NPO.

Tygaism is also mentions honest criticism.

Yes I have no evidence, that's true, that's why it's just my opinion not a fact. My point is: NPO didn't do their evil acts alone, and now some of their partners are in Karma side saying "NPO is bad but I'm not anymore just because I left the partnership a month ago."

[Tygaland]

Yeah I know what an analogy is, That's why I asked you if Karma was legal system of CN, because as Legal System punished someone for "abducting a person and locking them in a dungeon", Karma is punishing NPO for being evil. That's how an apology works right?

You clearly don't know what an analogy is. An analogy is where another scenario is used to prove a point in a debate. You said if Karma punishes the NPO at all then they are as bad as the NPO. So, I presented the analogy I did and asked if you believed the legal system was as bad as the abductor because they enforced the same punishment on the abductor as the abductor did on his victim.

Yet, you decided to take the analogy literally as some sort of claim that Karma is the legal system of Cybernations. That is not the case. So, onstead of avoiding what the analogy pointed out, can you answer the question I asked you in light of it?

I said Karma was the judge only. Power is the jury of CN, so why Karma judged NPO guilty only now? Why not a year ago? Because now they have enough power to do so. "Might makes right" remember? Doesn't matter who use it, NPO or Karma.

Karma isn't the judge at all. Karma is a movement for change in the political landscape in Cybernations.

Yes I have no evidence, that's true, that's why it's just my opinion not a fact. My point is: NPO didn't do their evil acts alone, and now some of their partners are in Karma side saying "NPO is bad but I'm not anymore just because I left the partnership a month ago."

I haven't heard anyone say that at all.

[D34th]

You clearly don't know what an analogy is. An analogy is where another scenario is used to prove a point in a debate. You said if Karma punishes the NPO at all then they are as bad as the NPO. So, I presented the analogy I did and asked if you believed the legal system was as bad as the abductor because they enforced the same punishment on the abductor as the abductor did on his victim.

Yet, you decided to take the analogy literally as some sort of claim that Karma is the legal system of Cybernations. That is not the case. So, onstead of avoiding what the analogy pointed out, can you answer the question I asked you in light of it?

Karma isn't the judge at all. Karma is a movement for change in the political landscape in Cybernations.

Let's go to the first point, analogy:

You are insulting my inteligence saying that I don't know what an apology is.

When I say: "The skates are for the skater how the skis are for the skier" this is an apology.

When you use the legal system apology scenario you say: "The legal system is for the abductor how The Karma is for NPO."

Now let's answer your question:

No Legal system isn't as bad as the abductor, because Legal system has for law the right to punish the criminals in real life.

My point is:

In my opinion Karma haven't the right to punish anyone because they aren't the legal system of CN so I used that example in my first reply, if you have no right to punish someone you are

committing the same crime.

I haven't heard anyone say that at all.

No, they are just hiding behind the Karma movement saying: "Let's change the political landscape of CN because the old one that I used to be part of isn't good anymore."

[Tygaland]

Let's go to the first point, analogy:

You are insulting my inteligence saying that I don't know what an apology is.

When I say: "The skates are for the skater how the skis are for the skier" this is an apology.

When you use the legal system apology scenario you say: "The legal system is for the abductor how The Karma is for NPO."

Analogy, not apology.

So, when you say a skate is for a skater as a ski is for a skier then you are saying a skate is a ski?

Now let's answer your question:

No Legal system isn't as bad as the abductor, because Legal system has for law the right to punish the criminals in real life.

My point is:

In my opinion Karma haven't the right to punish anyone because they aren't the legal system of CN so I used that example in my first reply, if you have no right to punish someone you are

committing the same crime.

I never claimed Karma is the legal system of CN, no one has. In Cybernations the winner of wars decides the punsihment. Now, you claim any punishment, no matter how light, makes Karma as bad as the NPO. I say that is crap. All alliances so far have been given white peace and an exit to the war. When, under the NPO's reign did this happen? You are grasping at straws and making things up.

No, they are just hiding behind the Karma movement saying: "Let's change the political landscape of CN because the old one that I used to be part of isn't good anymore."

Which isn't what you claimed they were saying.

[Otto Verteidiger]

All alliances so far have been given white peace and an exit to the war. When, under the NPO's reign did this happen? You are grasping at straws and making things up.

As much as I'd love to agree with you, not all Karma's opponents have been granted white peace. Although, they have been granted pretty fair terms and definitely not as harsh as what NPO and Company have brainstormed up. I still agree with your overall point, though.

And when did white peace happen under NPO's reign? Right before they got rolled

----

Although I don't really believe it should happen, it would be funny to see NPO's nations have to come out of peace mode and be ZI'd. Maybe Pacifica would drop it's little "FAN has to come out and fight!" line finally.

[D34th]

Analogy, not apology.

So, when you say a skate is for a skater as a ski is for a skier then you are saying a skate is a ski?

Skate isn't Ski but they are equivalent.

For me an analogy is a relationship of equivalence between two other relations.

For you is the use of example to prove a point.

So we better stop here because we won't reach any point.

I never claimed Karma is the legal system of CN, no one has. In Cybernations the winner of wars decides the punsihment. Now, you claim any punishment, no matter how light, makes Karma as bad as the NPO. I say that is crap. All alliances so far have been given white peace and an exit to the war. When, under the NPO's reign did this happen? You are grasping at straws and making things up.

Which isn't what you claimed they were saying.

I hope sometime you understand that I'm not a NPO defensor and I do not wish that NPO receive white peace in fact I'm an League/Aegis veteran and victim of woodstock massacre and I wonder that you know what I wish for NPO. But use an excuse to reach an objective is what Hegemony side do and what Karma is doing, hiding behind the justice bastion to remove an alliance who they hate from power.

As I said millions time before it's my opinion about Karma, I'm not talking about facts just point of views, you have one I have another. You will say that your point are based on facts, mine are in perceptions, and you right, but what's the problem with it?

We can disagree but I still love you although I don't think you love me

Edited May 2, 2009 by D34th

[Tygaland]

I hope sometime you understand that I'm not a NPO defensor and I do not wish that NPO receive white peace in fact I'm an League/Aegis veteran and victim of woodstock massacre and I wonder that you know what I wish for NPO. But use an excuse to reach an objective is what Hegemony side do and what Karma is doing, hiding behind the justice bastion to remove an alliance who they hate from power.

So, how would you propose the change Karma fights for be brought about?

As I said millions time before it's my opinion about Karma, I'm not talking about facts just point of views, you have one I have another. You will say that your point are based on facts, mine are in perceptions, and you right, but what's the problem with it?

The problem is, you are denigrating a group of people with no facts to back it up.

We can disagree but I still love you although I don't think you love me

It's ok, I still you.

[D34th]

So, how would you propose the change Karma fights for be brought about?

Vengeance.

The problem is, you are denigrating a group of people with no facts to back it up.

I'm not denigrating, ok I'm but I support what Karma is doing and what they want I just don't agree with the reason/excuse or the "banner" they are using.

It's ok, I still you.

[Vhalen]

I'm not denigrating, ok I'm but I support what Karma is doing and what they want I just don't agree with the reason/excuse or the "banner" they are using.

I think people just need to get over the name "Karma" and realize it's not a factual representation, based on dictionary definitions. I suspect NPO has nations not geographically located on the Pacific, too. Heck, I think we could spend quite a while pointing out dictionary definition inaccuracies in alliances and blocs, and it'd accomplish about as much as this last page or so. It might be a fun game, actually, but I don't think it's quite on topic for this thread.

[Timeline]

If we accept that the logical ethical consequence of the law of karma is to behave responsibly, and the tenet of the law of karma is essentially "if you do good things, good things will happen to you — if you do bad things, bad things will happen to you," then it is possible to identify analogs with other religions that do not rely on karma as a metaphysical assertion or doctrine.

Karma does not specifically concern itself with salvation as it implies a basic socio-ethical dynamic. The law of karma as a mechanism functions like a judge of one's actions, similar to the concept of God as judge in relation to "good and bad works" in the western religions. The Apostle Paul similarly states: "man reaps what he sows" .

WHO said Karma had to be the good guys, NPO are been paid with action they had taken.

So if we are Karma we can only judge NPO on how they judge others.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Timeline

[Cataduanes]

Would it help all the detractors if Karma changed its name?

[dare0021]

And so Karma will simply take the place of NPO, and do to NPO what it did to deserve disbandment?

Then how much time until another coalition comes up to disband the evil known as Karma?

Epic pic, this.

Would it help all the detractors if Karma changed its name?

And I agree with ^

Karma is just a name ;

Edit: Added quote

Edited May 2, 2009 by dare0021

[Doitzel]

The New Pacific Order must be devastated to the point that it cannot reclaim any sort of relevance and it's leaders who abused cybernations for the past three years must be punished. That is all that is necessary, although a wary eye should be kept on them to insure they do not rise again to a position of dominance.

Those who supported and allied with them should be let off with white peace. While they have done plenty of bad things, they were merely pawns in the Pacific's game.

I dsagree on the last part. They are just as responsible for their crimes. They were not hoodwinked or tricked. They made conscious choices and threw in their lot with the NPO and the NPO's barbaric practices and they should suffer appropriate consequences.

[Augustus Autumn]

I dsagree on the last part. [The alliances who have supported NPO] are just as responsible for their crimes. They were not hoodwinked or tricked. They made conscious choices and threw in their lot with the NPO and the NPO's barbaric practices and they should suffer appropriate consequences.

How far back does that support actually extend to remain relevant? In the case of FAN and their ongoing fight you see TORN, NpO, Nueva Vida and MHA as being able to be pointed at as supporters. In the case of GATO you could include RnR and STA. In the case of Polaris you can include Sparta, RoK, Fark, GOD, RIA, FOK!, ODN, Umbrella, TOP and many many others. If there's to be a ground sweep and a total accounting then let there be one but if the deed is not to be carried out completely and fairly then it's best not to attempt it at all.

If the alliances who defended the New Polar Order during this war (either directly or by extension through their treaties to other alliances) are to be held as supporting some grand scheme for imperial dominance then I think it's worth questioning this motive. These alliances joined the war after the massed declarations against the NPO, not before. It's a poor choice to support imperialism if you know it can't win - instead, you're seeing alliances honoring their treaties which one would hope is worth something.

It comes down to this - if the "Karma" movement desires the moral highground that it was laid claim to then it needs to keep it. The moment anything less than white peace was given to an alliance that highground began to crumble a little bit. Every subsequent instance that the highground is not maintained will lead to a further slide. Good or bad, right or wrong, it doesn't matter so much the judgement as the simple fact that ammunition is being provided to demonstrate inconsistency and unfairness which will color the memory of this war. The NPO was willing to accept the mantle of being The Imperialistic Society to Keep the Little Man Down - the "Karma" alliances might just have to be willing to shoulder the same to acheive their ends.

The easiest solution? TwistedRebel summed it up well in saying that some alliances simply chose the wrong side and they, in effect, just happen to be in the way. While a self-interested, greedy and thoroughly barbaric attitude it at least has that charming ring of beleivability about it.

I don't envy Archon and the others making the decisions for the "Karma" Movement. It's much simpler when you've been painted as the bad guy like the Initiative has. Whatever the decision is that is made, there will be consequences and, as is often the case, those consequences may not be apparent for a long while to come.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Vhalen]

The moment anything less than white peace was given to an alliance that highground began to crumble a little bit. Every subsequent instance that the highground is not maintained will lead to a further slide. Good or bad, right or wrong, it doesn't matter so much the judgement as the simple fact that ammunition is being provided to demonstrate inconsistency and unfairness which will color the memory of this war. The NPO was willing to accept the mantle of being The Imperialistic Society to Keep the Little Man Down - the "Karma" alliances might just have to be willing to shoulder the same to acheive their ends.

Anyone who thought such a massive war with so many participants was going to end in white peace for everyone is living in a fantasy world, so I'm forced to take whatever such a person says with a grain of salt. As to the moral high ground and "Keeping the little man down," that's more of a long-term issue. I doubt Karma will be ongoing for too long after this war, so I don't think it's an issue, but for those of you who do (or pretend to), keep in mind what this war has proven: If you keep the little man down long enough, he'll pull the rug out from under your feet.

[Augustus Autumn]

Anyone who thought such a massive war with so many participants was going to end in white peace for everyone is living in a fantasy world, so I'm forced to take whatever such a person says with a grain of salt. As to the moral high ground and "Keeping the little man down," that's more of a long-term issue. I doubt Karma will be ongoing for too long after this war, so I don't think it's an issue, but for those of you who do (or pretend to), keep in mind what this war has proven: If you keep the little man down long enough, he'll pull the rug out from under your feet.

I don't think the realistic expectation was ever for white peace across the board, but a precedent was set at the beginning of the war and maintained through several surrenders which lead to a general impression. In effect, the "Karma" movement said "yes" earlier and now has to be able to say "no" without looking petty or vengeful. It's not a place that I would like to be personally but I have faith in the conscience of Archon and the other leaders of the movement to keep to their resolution that the terms given should reflect the conduct of that alliance during the course of the war.

As for keeping the little man down, I'm in complete agreement. Enough little men with the same guns as you will be more than enough to bring you down.