What Happens Next

[HeinousOne]

Fallacy of Accident. There's a big difference between imposing that sort of thing on everyone in order for the rich to get richer, and imposing it only on the one worst offender, against whom something harsh must be imposed out of self-preservation.

The karma for failing to actually defeat NPO in this situation would be to lose the next war. That mistake was made in Great War I. I would hope it is not made again.

Good point. However, a cap on TNS need not be some random unmoving number; it could be a ranking cap (for example "NPO may not be larger than the XXth largest alliance by TNS") or a flat cap with a certain allowable percentage growth rate. As for enforcing it, that part is easy. It would be up to NPO to enforce itself; failing to do so would be an act of war.

You really do sound almost NPO like in these statements. You people are becoming like that which you detest. You give up your moral positions so quickly.

You are attempting to use the ideal of Karma to cover up true intentions of vengeance. There is no assured next war if the forces of Karma do not impose insanely high reparations upon NPO. Everyone now knows how NPO tries to move diplomatically. It will not happen again as it has before. They will now have to take a more equalized position within the world.

As far as a cap on TNS? You do realize how similiar that is to the NPO policy of viceroyalty or even their perpetual wars? You are wishing to maintain control over NPO indefinately. You have just attempted to repackage it in a manner that you think people will find acceptable. You do that and you become the Hegemony.

[danizduhman]

All Hegemony alliances other than NPO should be given relatively light terms, but NPO itself is a special case. They cannot be allowed to rebuild, or planet bob risks a replay of the WUT/League days.

I see two options for NPO (assuming Karma is capable of them, but for the purposes here let's assume so):

1) Karma occupies NPO and maintains a never-ending war, a la FAN and the Holy War of Farkistan.

or

2) NPO is eventually freed from the war, but [OOC] like Japan and Germany after World War II [/OOC] is contained with terms of peace that permanently limit its ability to make war on the rest of the world. For example, upper limits on the alliance's total nation strength and number of treaty partners. Such upper limits would need to be set high enough that NPO could maintain itself as a legitimate alliance, but low enough so that if they ever crossed the threshold and latter-day Karma had to take them out, they wouldn't be capable of mustering a defense capable of overthrowing the Karma power structure.

In other words, I am suggesting no reps and no military disbandments, but instead permanent limits on strength and treaty ties. These terms might even be coupled with rebuilding aid to further distance from the old school rep-based peace terms. Such terms would not punish individual nations (in fact they might even rebuild faster), but would specifically target the alliance's ability to come back and repeat history.

I would want to see this, by far. It faces every possible problem Karma would have.

[HeinousOne]

I would want to see this, by far. It faces every possible problem Karma would have.

Then you are no better then them and you will eventually become like them as you go down the morality stairs step by step.

[Vhalen]

You really do sound almost NPO like in these statements. You people are becoming like that which you detest. You give up your moral positions so quickly.

You are attempting to use the ideal of Karma to cover up true intentions of vengeance. There is no assured next war if the forces of Karma do not impose insanely high reparations upon NPO. Everyone now knows how NPO tries to move diplomatically. It will not happen again as it has before. They will now have to take a more equalized position within the world.

As far as a cap on TNS? You do realize how similiar that is to the NPO policy of viceroyalty or even their perpetual wars? You are wishing to maintain control over NPO indefinately. You have just attempted to repackage it in a manner that you think people will find acceptable. You do that and you become the Hegemony.

First off, I disagree with this proposal. However, I feel that this moral outrage to basically every term suggested is ridiculous. Is it immoral to defend yourself? Look, people, some kind of terms will be enforced at the end of this. I doubt they'll be draconian, but I'd be shocked if it's "disband military and get white peace" either. Planet Bob cried out, "Enough" and there needs to be an exclamation point.

Edit: HeinousOne, I'm not specifically targeting you with the "moral outrage" comment. It's just a common theme, and I decided to address it here.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Vhalen

[Elderago]

Look, the Karmic reaction of this war upon NPO is that they now realize they no longer have the numbers to push forward their agenda upon the world. It is my believe that this lesson has already been learned by NPO. Even if they are the most evil alliance out there, they are a pretty damn smart group of individuals. This doesnt mean I think the war will end soon or that it should, its just that I dont believe you need to put heavy requirements on them afterwards. If anything that will only make it more likely that we have an NPO out for vengeance after this war.

I could definately see them give peace to those they have put on perpetual warfare status, I could see them having to drop their two empirically named Doctrines but making them make heavy tech and money payments afterwards will only ensure that we have an NPO seeking Vengeance later.

This is the first act of Karma. Show them what proper actions are at the end of a great war. If they continue their ways after such then the second act of Karma can take place and that one will be much worse as would be proper.

Putting forth heavy reparations is not an act of Karma at this point but is an act of Vengeance. Do not get that mixed up people.

well you said better then I could

listen to this, if we force disbandment we (karma) would be no better then what we are fighting against, If we give into are desire for revenge, then what would come next ?, put aside emotions and think with logic. not your anger

don't give into the dark side...

[drugsup]

How about NPO is forced to move to the Pink Sphere and forced into Neutrality.

One thing that the NPO will have to do which I am looking forward to is admit defeat publicly, something they did not do in GW1 even though they admitted defeat in negotiation channels. I think a lot has been learnt since GW1, I believe NPO will never be given a chance to rise as a large threat ever again.

[Cirrus]

Then you are no better then them and you will eventually become like them as you go down the morality stairs step by step.

You are falling into classical logical fallacies. That's the slippery slope fallacy, on top of the fallacy of accident mentioned earlier.

Just keep repeating this:

There's a big difference between imposing that sort of thing on everyone in order for the rich to get richer, and imposing it only on the one worst offender, against whom something harsh must be imposed out of self-preservation.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Cirrus

[HeinousOne]

First off, I disagree with this proposal. However, I feel that this moral outrage to basically every term suggested is ridiculous. Is it immoral to defend yourself? Look, people, some kind of terms will be enforced at the end of this. I doubt they'll be draconian, but I'd be shocked if it's "disband military and get white peace" either. Planet Bob cried out, "Enough" and there needs to be an exclamation point.

Edit: HeinousOne, I'm not specifically targeting you with the "moral outrage" comment. It's just a common theme, and I decided to address it here.

I gained the trait "OWF Tough Skin +1" from my time in the NPO.

Dont worry, I took no offense to your statement. If you look at my statement again you will see I listed some terms that could be acceptable that would not drag the Karmic movement down into the realm of being the new Hegemony.

How about NPO is forced to move to the Pink Sphere and forced into Neutrality.

One thing that the NPO will have to do which I am looking forward to is admit defeat publicly, something they did not do in GW1 even though they admitted defeat in negotiation channels. I think a lot has been learnt since GW1, I believe NPO will never be given a chance to rise as a large threat ever again.

Your first statement contains the words "forced to move" thus I wouldnt personally agree but I think you made such with more humor then seriousness right?

I do like your idea of NPO having to publically admit defeat. To some alliances that may not be a big deal but it Will be a big deal for them, trust me.

You are right that they will continuously be under the microscope and that alone will be what keeps them from rising again to such levels of control.

You are falling into classical logical fallacies. That's the slippery slope fallacy, on top of the fallacy of accident mentioned earlier.

Just keep repeating this:

Explain it however you wish, the actions you wish are but the first step towards becoming that which you detest. When that happens you will actually provide the environment for NPO to once again regain power because they will be camoflauged in a world that they have molded. With a world full of alliances acting like them they will no longer seem like such a bad group.

If you strike down your enemy in a manner in which they would strike you down, it doesnt matter if your vision is blurred with hatred and vengeance in the end history will paint you in a similiar fashion as those you struck down.

What you seek is Vengeance, not truly righting the world back to a world where alliances are free to act independently.

[bill n ted]

Bolded for emphasis

Congratulations you won the thread.

It is rather amusing having seen all the pre war justifications for taking on NPO, then in this thread theres a good number of Karma members wanting to do act exactly the same as NPO and some of its allies and turn the NPO into the next FAN/Vox Populi which everyone loves.

Karma is indeed a !@#$%*

Edited April 30, 2009 by bill n ted

[Vilien]

You have some bad misconceptions about the way blocs develop -- alliances create them for their own interests, and contrary to popular belief don't sit in the corner doing what one mega-evil alliance in the middle tells them to.

You also see self-interest in a very sectarian way -- self-interest doesn't mean doing exactly what you want all the time, it means taking the important aspects of it and uniting with as large a force as possible to advance it (rather than sitting in aforesaid corner alone pining that if only people would listen!). You also assume, in spite of history, that multiple antagonistic blocs can exist long term, stemming from the assumptions that: all will be of the same size and remain that way indefinitely; all will act strictly independently regardless of their best strategic option (ie. uniting to take out a mutual enemy); after wars each will magically return to the default, rather than the shift in power and a tendency towards unipolarity (if 3 friendly blocs take our a 4th and then cooperate peacefully, is this not unipolarity? Is this not what we had for the past years?). And so forth.

You can see more in depth thoughts about multi-polarity in my responses in this thread.

Vlad, I have said it once, and say it again. We are not you. We do not share your ability to view any non-aligned power as a threat. We do not plot the destruction of blocs simply because they exist. Assuming that we will all act like Pacifica as soon as the war is over is ridiculous. Some of us can stand each others' existence, even if we don't have a treaty with them. So continue to spew nonsense about the next hegemony, because your era is over. I have no intention of repeating the Pacifican model.

[HeinousOne]

Congratulations you won the thread.

It is rather amusing having seen all the pre war justifications for taking on NPO, then in this thread theres a good number of Karma members wanting to do act exactly the same as NPO and some of its allies and turn the NPO into the next FAN/Vox Populi which everyone loves.

Karma is indeed a !@#$%*

There are still many whom do not wish to do such. Your attempt to blanket statement is simply obvious propaganda. Until the deed is done you cannot judge someone by it. As of yet Karma has not yet done the deed you wish to judge them on.

[Kindom of Goon]

Congratulations you won the thread.

It is rather amusing having seen all the pre war justifications for taking on NPO, then in this thread theres a good number of Karma members wanting to do act exactly the same as NPO and some of its allies and turn the NPO into the next FAN/Vox Populi which everyone loves.

Karma is indeed a !@#$%*

The only justification needed for taking on NPO was them attacking OV. Secondly, so what? There are thousands of members in the Karma side, the idea that everyone agrees on what is right and wrong is ridiculous. Another ridiculous statement I've seen banded about is that anything more than white peace for NPO would make Karma hypocrites.. are you guys serious? I cannot remember anyone (never mind the majority or the people who's opinions count) on Karma's side ever claim everyone should get white peace no matter what the conditions are. Its like saying punching someone who shot you a few times makes you a hypocrite.

[Agha Petros Elia]

How about NPO is forced to move to the Pink Sphere

Frightful

[R&R-Viking]

Who ever said Karma was morally better than NPO, or planned to stick together after this war?

As far as I know we're all here to end NPO's run at the top and teach them a lesson in foreign policy. That's it. The post-war will work itself out when it does. I think the alliances being given white peace right now have it much better than some of us did when it was NPO etc. setting the terms for us. I agree with this, and think all but the NPO deserve a white peace.

NPO, though, must be prevented from regaining its position by any means necessary, up to and including disbandment. If they are not crushed, we will all regret it later.

[D34th]

Who ever said Karma was morally better than NPO, or planned to stick together after this war?

Not me

NPO, though, must be prevented from regaining its position by any means necessary, up to and including disbandment. If they are not crushed, we will all regret it later.

What goes around...

[drugsup]

Your first statement contains the words "forced to move" thus I wouldnt personally agree but I think you made such with more humor then seriousness right?

I do like your idea of NPO having to publically admit defeat. To some alliances that may not be a big deal but it Will be a big deal for them, trust me.

You are right that they will continuously be under the microscope and that alone will be what keeps them from rising again to such levels of control.

My first statement was more sarcasm, they forced LOSS to move to the pink Sphere and remain in Neutrality for 1 whole year. Its something that can kill an alliance and almost killed us.

[njndirish]

What happens next? Simple:

Draw new lines, erase old ones, and prepare for the next global conflict. There is no end to the cycle the Orders and the CoaLUEtion created nearly three years ago. What we see as the end is only the beginning. We may say there will be individuality, there will be autonomy, but in the end we will end up where Tyga's nuke struck Duffman, and dance the dance of war, only this time with new partners.

Edited April 30, 2009 by njndirish

[flak attack]

I wouldn't mind seeing NPO chose to reject peace terms and opt for eternal war. It would make things interesting if they did, and we need this war's quota of alliances that reject peace.

[Geiseric]

What happens next? Simple:

Draw new lines, erase old ones, and prepare for the next global conflict.

I'd listen to this man, he has great foresight.

[njndirish]

I'd listen to this man, he has great foresight.

I enjoy stating the obvious while idealists talk of the "Hypocrisy of Karma" or the "Deserved Punishment of the NPO"

[Oktavia]

What will happen after the war? 6 months roll by and everyone gets bored again.

[Ghostlin]

All Hegemony alliances other than NPO should be given relatively light terms, but NPO itself is a special case. They cannot be allowed to rebuild, or planet bob risks a replay of the WUT/League days.

I agree with the second part of the statement in part, but not the first.

I think there's a misconception with folks that just because alliances went to NPO's defense and taking a beating, they should be immune to the things that they did that NPO approved of. It also goes along with the misconception that NPO is the only guilty alliance in the game that made this happen. There are a number of alliances that did whatever they wanted with NPO approval. In this case, yes, NPO is guilty of what you call a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission, but it doesn't mean the one committing gets a free pass because 'NPO allowed us' or 'NPO told us to'. This is sorta like the Nuremburg Defense, a defense that was ultimately objected because humans ourselves should have a higher moral compass. (And that's as close to Godwin's Law as I'm going to skate.)

I'm not going to cite specific examples; to paraphrase TORN's classic signature for those alliances, 'You know who you are/You know what you did.' In other words, I think folks who committed their own acts with a little bit of approval is guilty for those acts as NPO. Like those who commissioned acts on NPO's watch for the greater glory therein. Now, I'm not that optimistic to believe that may or may not happen, that the punishment will fit the crime, but I don't think white peace is warranted in every instance.

There are a greater population of alliances, we'll call them second tier allies or protectorates, that really are innocent. These are the folks deserving of white peace.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Ghostlin

[wickedj]

As someone who initially supported disbandment i've since changed my opinion. The wikia for this war says NPO was offered the following terms before this war and they really arent that harsh.

* The NPO will issue a full, earnest, and sincere apology to Ordo Verde for their rash and unjustified declaration of war.

* The NPO will admit that the casus belli used against Ordo Verde was trumped up and that the NPO over-reacted in an effort to provoke war.

* The NPO will pay reparations to Ordo Verde at a rate of 300% the damages dealt. This includes econmic [sic] damage dealt as a result of being in peace mode. To ensure that these reparations are paid promptly, the NPO will suspend all tech deals for the duration of these terms.

* In recognition of the tensions caused by the NPO's rash declaration of war, and to ensure peace is maintained, the NPO will hereby decomission [sic] their soldiers down to 20% per nation. They will furthermore decommission all CMs, Tanks, Navy, and Aircraft. They must maintain this state for a period of 60 days.

Aside from maybe the cancellation of both doctrines these would be a good "middle ground" as previously mentioned in this thread. though its my opinion no matter WHAT Karma gives to NPO it will be viewed as too harsh/too light

Though you have to admit, this very well could set us up for a very interesting 6 or 8 months once this is all over. What becomes of the red team, or red senate for that matter if both doctrines are cancelled? Will this change the public opinion of NPO or for that matter will this change how Pacifica operates? do FAN/Vox/Etc get released?

[Cirrus]

NPO, though, must be prevented from regaining its position by any means necessary, up to and including disbandment. If they are not crushed, we will all regret it later.

What goes around...

Hi D34th. Long time no see. Let me see if I understand the situation you describe correctly.

1. If Karma does not adequately contain NPO then in the future NPO will definitely crush Karma, as the history of Great Wars 1-3 shows us.

2. If Karma does adequately contain NPO then in the future NPO may crush Karma because what goes around comes around.

3. Karma is doomed no matter what.

Is that about right?

No seriously folks. Does anybody here expect NPO to forgive and forget if they're given lenient terms while they're still strong? Anybody? Let's see those hands.

[Cirrus]

I agree with the second part of the statement in part, but not the first.

I think there's a misconception with folks that just because alliances went to NPO's defense and taking a beating, they should be immune to the things that they did that NPO approved of. It also goes along with the misconception that NPO is the only guilty alliance in the game that made this happen. There are a number of alliances that did whatever they wanted with NPO approval... it doesn't mean the one committing gets a free pass because 'NPO allowed us' or 'NPO told us to'.

Well, it's a question of what best serves the eventual winners of the war. The other alliances aren't as much of a threat, which is why they don't need to be contained is the same manner as NPO. If Karma makes the other alliances its friends instead of its enemies, then that's better for Karma than punishing them because they used to be enemies.