The Phoenix Federation Announcement

[Griff]

Hostilities will continue until either you surrender to the NSO or, less likely, NSO surrenders to you.

We should do that just so Hegemony can score their first (and only) surrender

[Nobama]

Why don't we all cut the crap.

Both STA and NSO are engaged with ML, we decided to to help them on the NSO front with all that we have left, we can't do more than commit everything we have.

You can quit repeating that. Everything you have would include the 50 peace modes. You have 500 wars for 228 nations. A good deal of involvement, yes, but you're not injured muts scrapping at the bear for another go. Quit pretending you are.

I could see if we had several hundred folks just sitting there doing nothing and we chose to ignore STA....that is not the case. Every single nation in TPF will be engaged very shortly.

I'm certain they will. Doesn't change the fact that you're overdramatizing a 3-man DoW in order to desperately scrap together some positive PR.

Low hanging fruit.....are you guys conducting humility classes after the light saber training?

Spy?

Where exactly in the OP is mhawk shouting about honor?

Let me guess: you did a CTRL+F of the OP and didn't see it.

I see, helping out friends, defending our brothers, but no mention of the glorious honor TPF is accused of pinning on her banner for all the world to admire.

I'm not even going to justify that with a response.

Regardless of who we declare on at this point, it is little more than a symbolic gesture, why make it a foolish one as well, we just wanted to let ML know we appreciate their help. We accomplished that, sorry if it upsets you.

The NSO is thrilled to see TPF making the decisions they made. Regardless of how symbolic, ritualistic, and PR-motivated these decisions are.

[sigelopisan]

A man who stood by his friends is better than talking on the table.

TPF, you have my respect.

o/TPF

[Il Impero Romano]

A man who stood by his friends is better than talking on the table.

TPF, you have my respect.

o/TPF

How quickly some forget...

[JBone]

Ah yes, and with this you prove my point. Admittance to the declaration being little more than symbolic while having that symbolic gesture be blatantly dishonorable speaks volumes, at least to me, on how you truly view your friends and how little you regard us.

I am not here to be your sounding board for saving face. The NSO isn't your lapdog here solely to provide you with a target of convenience.

It is good to see the anger. An emotional opponent is a controllable one.

Glad I could help you with that.

I still don't see how the NSO DoW is blatantly dishonorable. If one is presented with two options, both will accomplish your goals equally and one will do so without bringing undue harm on others, the choice seems obvious.

Simply put, we view our friends as, well.....friends.

We most assuredly do not regard the NSO as low hanging fruit , a lapdog or a two month old alliance that has just started to get it's military structure in order, merely as an AA engaged with ML, certainly not a convenient one.

You will find no anger here sir.

[Fallen Fool]

I actually spit coffee on my keyboard, false modesty was never your strong point.

Random, Musso, Anthony, WC, Heft, Fallen, Seerow and yourself would seem quite capable of organising the Sith and fending off the assault of TPFs mongrel hordes...all 3 of them.

...as it was meant to be.

Actually last I heard it was 5 wars, and I was in one of them

[neneko]

I still don't see how the NSO DoW is blatantly dishonorable.

It wouldn't have been dishonorable if TPF had shown a pattern of acting like this in the past but acting honorable only when you don't have anything to lose to gain some cheap PR points is despicable.

[JBone]

Actually last I heard it was 5 wars, and I was in one of them

...and so it begins, the plan of lulling you into a false sense of security is working.

[Shurukian]

Okay, first of all, TPF, you know I love you guys, but you attract trolling like a fat kid to cake. No matter what TPF does, it's fairly positive that someone will change it into a PR boost, some secret move behind the scenes, or a grab for power. I'm not saying it's fair, it just seems to be fact. And when it comes down to it, nothing I've seen in this thread trolling wise has surprised me. The goal these days is not to change TPF, as is has changed for all of those that wonder, but getting people to open their minds to accept it. Everything, when over analyzed and ripped apart, can be portrayed in a negative fashion. I however, would depress myself by constantly thinking that negatively.

Now for the other side of this. To all the Trolls, TPF has quite a large war going on already. We, as their protectorate, are obligated to defend them. Under your reasoning, my 57 man alliance should have declared on Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, New Sith Order, Poison Clan, The Forsaken Ones, White Tree, the Christian Coalition of Countries, and so many others that I just can't remember. Not only would I probably have been thrown out for even suggesting this to my alliance, but it would have been suicide, and we would have just been a burden rather than a help. Focusing on one area is better than throwing yourself at everyone. So instead, you take what you can handle. If TPF has even four nations that can help somewhere else, then they should completely honor their treaties and send them in defense. However, it doesn't matter who they declare on. If those four nations are fighting the Siths, then they would do no different fighting the Siberians. If there was enough to take on all of the Siths, and some TPF nations sitting around twirling their thumbs, then I could see your point. However, those four nations will be helping Molon Labe no matter where they go. And strategically, it just wouldn't be smart to have those four nations bring in three hundred and seventy seven more nations against TPF. I think they have their hands full already.

There are multiple people on either side that aren't attacking every alliance touching their treaty signatories. Simply because it won't help the people you're trying to defend to spread your people out, rather than keep them unified. You knock down one domino at a time, not the entire stack.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Shurukian

[Lycurgus Rex]

...and so it begins, the plan of lulling you into a false sense of security is working.

Ooooh, I dont know, I reckon we are pretty secure

[Melon Lube]

In the NSO's DoW it was pointed out a few times that the war with Molon Labe was not only to help out their allies in the STA, but to repay an honor debt to MK. A position for which I have a great deal of respect. Now it's being said that the sole reason for the NSO's involvement in this war is to back up the STA. Which one is it? I'm not good with the lawyer crap, but this doesn't seem right.

We appreciate the those who have concern because our allies may not have done enough to support us, probably more so than they have actual concern. But we'll be the judge of that, and we're happy to have the help in any form.

Finally, not to give the wrong impression, this war's been a lot of fun, there are some friendships with great potential being formed, and all three alliances at war with ML have done a great deal to earn my respect.

[AirMe]

Not really AirMe...rumour has it TPF has absolutely no plans to bring them out.

If you believe all the rumors you hear then GR is surrendering, NPO is winning the war, Karma is forcing TPF to disband, Ivan is the father of my children, TOP is going to betray Gremlins, Karma is going to betray Citadel, Blackstone Collusion was run by a PC, Walford hybrid and Archon really is the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Basically unless you have fact to back a rumor up, don't believe it.

Edited April 28, 2009 by AirMe

[lebubu]

Archon really is the 2nd coming of Jesus.

...he's not? D:

[Pepper]

Please folks, please let ML decide what this means to us. We appreciate any help we can get right now, as we're fighting a rather pitched battle. Not complaining mind you, as this is the first decent fight we've had in quite a while. I'm actually enjoying things a bit, we're fighting folks with a sense of humor, and a great attitude. Let's save all the e-lawyering and political spinning for another thread.

o/ TPF

o/ mhawk

[mhawk]

This.

TPF has figured something out: there is no perma-ZI, there is no 800 million in reps, there is no hunting down the leaders as they make new nations. They've come to realize the rules of times past, the NPO's rules, are no longer in effect.

TPF has nothing to lose here. They made a horrible blunder on the outset of this war, showed some true colors, and now can "attack" everybody who slights an ally. They are drunkenly throwing stones in a warzone, and it's winning them the PR battle amongst those who are capable of little more than hailing.

Over-dramatized DoW for a three nation offensive. Of course this wasn't just a PR move

So the messages of "Disband or delete" are not accurate from certain alliances against us?

[Felix von Agnu]

Okay, first of all, TPF, you know I love you guys, but you attract trolling like a fat kid to cake. No matter what TPF does, it's fairly positive that someone will change it into a PR boost, some secret move behind the scenes, or a grab for power. I'm not saying it's fair, it just seems to be fact. And when it comes down to it, nothing I've seen in this thread trolling wise has surprised me. The goal these days is not to change TPF, as is has changed for all of those that wonder, but getting people to open their minds to accept it. Everything, when over analyzed and ripped apart, can be portrayed in a negative fashion. I however, would depress myself by constantly thinking that negatively.

Now for the other side of this. To all the Trolls, TPF has quite a large war going on already. We, as their protectorate, are obligated to defend them. Under your reasoning, my 57 man alliance should have declared on Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, New Sith Order, Poison Clan, The Forsaken Ones, White Tree, the Christian Coalition of Countries, and so many others that I just can't remember. Not only would I probably have been thrown out for even suggesting this to my alliance, but it would have been suicide, and we would have just been a burden rather than a help. Focusing on one area is better than throwing yourself at everyone. So instead, you take what you can handle. If TPF has even four nations that can help somewhere else, then they should completely honor their treaties and send them in defense. However, it doesn't matter who they declare on. If those four nations are fighting the Siths, then they would do no different fighting the Siberians. If there was enough to take on all of the Siths, and some TPF nations sitting around twirling their thumbs, then I could see your point. However, those four nations will be helping Molon Labe no matter where they go. And strategically, it just wouldn't be smart to have those four nations bring in three hundred and seventy seven more nations against TPF. I think they have their hands full already.

There are multiple people on either side that aren't attacking every alliance touching their treaty signatories. Simply because it won't help the people you're trying to defend to spread your people out, rather than keep them unified. You knock down one domino at a time, not the entire stack.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Shuru.

[janax]

Stuff

We, as their protectorate, are obligated to defend them. Under your reasoning, my 57 man alliance should have declared on Mushroom Kingdom, Federation of Buccaneers, New Sith Order, Poison Clan, The Forsaken Ones, White Tree, the Christian Coalition of Countries, and so many others that I just can't remember. Not only would I probably have been thrown out for even suggesting this to my alliance, but it would have been suicide, and we would have just been a burden rather than a help.

More stuff

Unless OPP is different, normally protectorates are a 1 way street. The Protector is obligated to defend the Protectee, but not vice versa.

TO ME PERSONALLY, any protectorate expected to be 2 way, is an MDP, not a protectorate treaty. Except worse.

Also, the rumors of TPF being forced to disband or delete are not only not true, they are merely being used as a scare tactic at this point. I have not once, EVER seen anyone saying anything differently, except TPF and allies.

Edited April 28, 2009 by janax

[AirMe]

Unless OPP is different, normally protectorates are a 1 way street. The Protector is obligated the Protectee, but not vice versa.

TO ME PERSONALLY, any protectorate expected to be 2 way, is an MDP, not a protectorate treaty. Except worse.

Our protectorates are a 1 way street, but they all volunteered to step up and help us in some way.

[fant0m]

And apparently blind hatred is more infectious than swine flu. Your last line is just ridiculous.

If you would care to check the facts (you know what facts are right?) you would see that my last line is 100% correct.

PC are in an avg. of 3.52 wars per member not in peace mode. (It was even higher yesterday, over 4)

TPF are in an avg. of 2.86 wars per member not in peace mode.

Mhawk actually did show guts by leaving TPF to fight with Pacifica and there can be nothing but respect shown for that. The rest of TPF however, at least the ones who were all for abandoning one of their supposed friends and closest allies, can never speak of honour again.

[Shurukian]

Unless OPP is different, normally protectorates are a 1 way street. The Protector is obligated the Protectee, but not vice versa.

TO ME PERSONALLY, any protectorate expected to be 2 way, is an MDP, not a protectorate treaty. Except worse.

I would feel obligated to protect my protectors in any means. If I didn't want to protect them, I would have stayed a General Protectorate. But they have protected us from our infancy, and I owe it to them to return the favor. I could never sit back and watch my protector be destroyed while I sit in some happy place away from it all. That's just not right to me.

[Felix von Agnu]

Unless OPP is different, normally protectorates are a 1 way street. The Protector is obligated the Protectee, but not vice versa.

TO ME PERSONALLY, any protectorate expected to be 2 way, is an MDP, not a protectorate treaty. Except worse.

TPF can request OPP to help in our defense. The OPP council then votes to help out, and if a majority decision is reached, they will defend TPF.

[mhawk]

Oh yes, because a two month old alliance that has just started to get it's military structure in order is the biggest threat to your "friends" in ML.

I take the compliment as high praise.

Likewise a combined declaration of over 350 nations fighting less than 50 nations whom are already engaged with one of the best military alliances out there is somehow an even playing field. You guys are new, but you have some of the oldest players around and if you think I'm going to allow my friends and former home to be the play thing of your military tests, you're dead wrong. We might only be able to bleed on you, but that blood will be as painful as we can muster.

Edited April 28, 2009 by mhawk

[janax]

Volunteering or help being requested is NOT being "obligated" by anything other than your own decisions.

Either way, it's a choice, not an obligation

Oh, and to clarify, it seems to be TPF and allies that are spreading the disband rumor, to scare their own side into continuing the fight. If anyone thinks some of the alliances involved in this would allow that as a peace term, you have a very distorted view of Planet Bob.

Edited April 28, 2009 by janax

[Shurukian]

Volunteering or help being requested is NOT being "obligated" by anything other than your own decisions.

Either way, it's a choice, not an obligation

I view it as an obligation. When someone defends me, I defend them back. Period. Call it an unspoken obligation, but if more people had the same feeling, we wouldn't have seen mass cancellations like we did, and the treaty web would be a lot cleaner. I would never vote not to defend someone that had protected me, or given me help when I needed it. Even if OPP would have voted to not go in, TSI would have gone in on it's own. It's just how I operate.

Edit: The disband rumor? I must be missing something. I know mhawk would probably give up his guns before he disbanded TPF, and we all know how likely that is.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Shurukian

[Felix von Agnu]

If you would care to check the facts (you know what facts are right?) you would see that my last line is 100% correct.

PC are in an avg. of 3.52 wars per member not in peace mode. (It was even higher yesterday, over 4)

TPF are in an avg. of 2.86 wars per member not in peace mode.

Mhawk actually did show guts by leaving TPF to fight with Pacifica and there can be nothing but respect shown for that. The rest of TPF however, at least the ones who were all for abandoning one of their supposed friends and closest allies, can never speak of honour again.

I've noticed a lot of PC nations declaring mulitiple offensive wars. Seems to me you're complaining about your own lack of disipline.