Imperial Decree

[magicninja]

Nope

Question why did they retract after they had agreed to a ZI and then later refuse a simple one week war session. If you have valid reasons I can respect that. I'm just wondering.

[Tulafaras]

Of course Moo planned that we could end up at war with OV. That was set towards the start of the negotiations when things were stalled. There are certain things kept private due to the abundance of spies among the NPO forums, but we were alerted that there was a possibility we could go to war. Likewise our allies were informed.

So were we prepped for war? Yes, sir. Does that mean we were set on going to war? No. To be extremely vague not to point on to anything, within the last 6 months, we were 'prepped' for war and it was not put into action. Being prepped for war does not equate to going to war. War is not a first option, but the NPO War Machine is always ready to be put in gear.

maybe, and of course alliances have been prepped for war for a while.

Fact of the matter is though that for anyone who can read the attitude displayed by NPO and TORN during these so called "negotiations" was laughable at best and frankly insulting at worst. Your Leadership had all the options to make peace, they could have approached OV in a civil manner and most likely they would have achieved some kind of reparation simply to get the incident over and done with.

Instead they trumped up a fairly laughable charge and tried to play tough guy, when that did not work they stalled the negotiations.

And now comes the fun part, instead of doing the honorable thing and saying: "okay this means war" Moo fakes a disconnect and then sends his alliance on the attack.

Seriously how cowardly can you get?

You can tell me that he disconnected for real, and i'll even believe you, but what i won't believe is that you attacked without him giving the order, so facts of your DoW are:

1) Moo disced out of an ongoing negotiation.

2) While everyone else was waiting for him (because you know that is kind of the standard mode of operation, you disconnect then you reconnect and rejoin the channel) the order to attack was given.

[bzelger]

Question why did they retract after they had agreed to a ZI and then later refuse a simple one week war session. If you have valid reasons I can respect that. I'm just wondering.

The one week war was offered as a compromise by the negotiator. It was still unclear whether Moo would sign on to that compromise when the NPO attacked in the midst of negotiation.

[magicninja]

The one week war was offered as a compromise by the negotiator. It was still unclear whether Moo would sign on to that compromise when the NPO attacked in the midst of negotiation.

What I saw was Moo saying "Do you decline the 7 day war as well?" Then OV saying they wanted Mhawk's head for some reason.

Edited April 21, 2009 by magicninja

[King Srqt]

Question why did they retract after they had agreed to a ZI and then later refuse a simple one week war session. If you have valid reasons I can respect that. I'm just wondering.

Since these logs got leaked all over the place somehow I guess I might as well post them.

But this is what changed everyone's mind

[23:45] <away_srqt[RIA]> so how did you guys get teh SS of Ovs forums anyway

[23:52] <Moo-Cows> we didn't

[23:52] <Moo-Cows> someone gave t hem to our ally

[23:52] <Moo-Cows> who gave them to us

[23:54] <away_srqt[RIA]> so really your ally (I am assuming TPF) acceoted leaked Screen shots of a privat alliance forum?

[23:58] <away_srqt[RIA]> I am sure you can see how tihs is slightly concerning to me considering the implications it has for some of my closest allies

[00:00] <Moo-Cows> you know as well as I that every alliance accepts information

[00:00] <Moo-Cows> how else are spies caught thesse days?

[bzelger]

What I saw was Moo saying "Do you decline the 7 day war as well?" Then OV saying they wanted Mhawk's head for some reason.

Moo did ask about their stance on the offer, but he never said that he would accept it. As far as I saw it was never an official offer. And mhawk's head was wanted in reciprocity for an equivalent crime: accepting private information about OV.

[Aurion]

Where's that quote about the NAAC spying that Pacificans parroted for years in their sigs? The one about spying on NPO to see if NPO was spying on them?

QUOTE (Lord Extelleron)

We did not "spy" on you. That is the usual propoganda by the NPO. We planted a member in your organization to find out if anyone from the NPO was spying on us.

- Lord Extelleron/His Majesty proving "(he) didn't spy on us."

I believe this is it.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Aurion

[Rebel Virginia]

What I saw was Moo saying "Do you decline the 7 day war as well?" Then OV saying they wanted Mhawk's head for some reason.

I don't think it is wrong to ask for the heads of those who obtain information via spying. I mean, your side called for heads simply for unknowingly receiving information. On the other hand, you found that out through spying. Double standards must not be tolerated.

[Haflinger]

And now comes the fun part, instead of doing the honorable thing and saying: "okay this means war" Moo fakes a disconnect and then sends his alliance on the attack.

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Moo faked eight pings in order to make the NPO look bad?

My IRC logs are in Eastern time, so 01:00 is update.

Apr 20 22:14:11 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 20 22:15:27 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:25:17 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:30:46 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:34:20 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:41:28 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:52:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:59:00 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:28:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:34:14 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:37:38 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:38:59 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:41:47 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 21 00:42:32 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

4/20/2009 11:43:00 PM (server) first NPO war

4/20/2009 11:44:33 PM (server) bigwoody DoWs

Apr 21 00:45:44 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:53:15 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:57:55 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

[magicninja]

I don't think it is wrong to ask for the heads of those who obtain information via spying. I mean, your side called for heads simply for unknowingly receiving information. On the other hand, you found that out through spying. Double standards must not be tolerated.

Mhawk didn't spy. If you all were in #VE at 4 AM this morning you would know that. Pfft going to bed early. You miss all the good action.

[Morey 2k7]

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Moo faked eight pings in order to make the NPO look bad?

My IRC logs are in Eastern time, so 01:00 is update.

Apr 20 22:14:11 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 20 22:15:27 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:25:17 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:30:46 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:34:20 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:41:28 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:52:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:59:00 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:28:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:34:14 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:37:38 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:38:59 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:41:47 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 21 00:42:32 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

4/20/2009 11:43:00 PM (server) first NPO war

4/20/2009 11:44:33 PM (server) bigwoody DoWs

Apr 21 00:45:44 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:53:15 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:57:55 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Tula does go onto to say that even if Moo did actually D/C, that then the normal process would be to rejoin the chat after reconnecting. Not to go and declare war.

[magicninja]

Tula does go onto to say that even if Moo did actually D/C, that then the normal process would be to rejoin the chat after reconnecting. Not to go and declare war.

I'm guessing Pacifica moved without Moo to keep in the time frame after not hearing that peace was achieved. Goddamn horrible time for the net to go down.

[Tulafaras]

Wait, are you seriously claiming that Moo faked eight pings in order to make the NPO look bad?

My IRC logs are in Eastern time, so 01:00 is update.

Apr 20 22:14:11 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 20 22:15:27 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:25:17 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:30:46 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:34:20 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:41:28 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 20 22:52:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 20 22:59:00 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:28:08 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:34:14 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:37:38 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:38:59 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:41:47 * Moo-cows has quit (Client exited)

Apr 21 00:42:32 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

4/20/2009 11:43:00 PM (server) first NPO war

4/20/2009 11:44:33 PM (server) bigwoody DoWs

Apr 21 00:45:44 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

Apr 21 00:53:15 * Moo-cows (Moo's hostmask censored) has joined #nsa

Apr 21 00:57:55 * Moo-cows has quit (Ping timeout)

there are 2 possible scenarios:

1) either the order to attack at update had already been given before Moo started disconnecting.

2) the order was given while he was supposed to be offline

As i said, i won't believe that the other officers of the NPO simply decided to supersede him, that just isn't done, so either scenario shows that frankly those negotiations were not being done in good faith.

(edit to include the post above me [damn this thread is fast])

if your negotiatior disappears during negotiations what would you do? Wait until he comes back or simply assume something and attack? For any reasonable alliance the modus operandi would be to wait until he is back and the negotiations are done. Even if you loose a single day that would be the honorable choice.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Tulafaras

[Uhtred]

I believe this is it.

That's the one. Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?

[magicninja]

there are 2 possible scenarios:

1) either the order to attack at update had already been given before Moo started disconnecting.

2) the order was given while he was supposed to be offline

As i said, i won't believe that the other officers of the NPO simply decided to supersede him, that just isn't done, so either scenario shows that frankly those negotiations were not being done in good faith.

(edit to include the post above me [damn this thread is fast])

if your negotiatior disappears during negotiations what would you do? Wait until he comes back or simply assume something and attack? For any reasonable alliance the modus operandi would be to wait until he is back and the negotiations are done. Even if you loose a single day that would be the honorable choice.

I actually believe they were being done in good faith. Moo seemed in an awful hurry. Asking if they accepted the 7 day war before the OV member could even get out what they were trying to say. I think there was a time limit. If moo didn't call off the attack before a certain time the attack was a go.

It's that old military idea of acting with orders in hand unless you get new orders.

I think Bigwoody did wait but since NPO had gone off attacking on orders they had in hand he had to give the order to attack per the plan I suppose. Then waited for Moo to reconnect and see WTF happened before posting his DoW.

Plausible no?

Edited April 21, 2009 by magicninja

[Tulafaras]

you call that in good faith? Negotiating while the order is already given?

Our definition seems to differ....

[Geoffron X]

All I learned from this thread is that we shouldn't have bothered with these peace negotiations to begin with.

[magicninja]

you call that in good faith? Negotiating while the order is already given?

Our definition seems to differ....

Look we all know Pacifica is a stickler to detail when it comes to military action. Odds are this was the final night of negotiations per their plan. As the punishment was all the way down to a 7 day war I don't see how much farther down they would've gone since OV was so hard pressed to attack Mhawk for things he apparently never did.

Edited April 21, 2009 by magicninja

[The Poet]

But then the delaying the right amount of time for all your peace mode nations strategy wouldn't have worked out so well...

[Morey 2k7]

All I learned from this thread is that we shouldn't have bothered with these peace negotiations to begin with.

Maybe then we shouldn't bother with peace negotiations when you are on the losing side and wanting peace.

[magicninja]

Maybe then we shouldn't bother with peace negotiations when you are on the losing side and wanting peace.

Shining beacon of change indeed.

[SynthFG]

I actually believe they were being done in good faith. Moo seemed in an awful hurry. Asking if they accepted the 7 day war before the OV member could even get out what they were trying to say. I think there was a time limit. If moo didn't call off the attack before a certain time the attack was a go.

It's that old military idea of acting with orders in hand unless you get new orders.

I think Bigwoody did wait but since NPO had gone off attacking on orders they had in hand he had to give the order to attack per the plan I suppose. Then waited for Moo to reconnect and see WTF happened before posting his DoW.

Plausible no?

It's a scenario in nuclear war that is called Fail Deadly,

As in an order is given such that if so and so does / does not occur then attack.

It's widely considered to be an unsafe, unstable system that is prone to break down, for that reason fail deadly orders should only be given if a decapitation strike is suspected and it is thought that no chain of command may survive to issue war orders.

[King Srqt]

Look we all know Pacifica is a stickler to detail when it comes to military action. Odds are this was the final night of negotiations per their plan. As the punishment was all the way down to a 7 day war I don't see how much farther down they would've gone since OV was so hard pressed to attack Mhawk for things he apparently never did.

If only he had come back to the room, our next offer had nothing to do with mhawk, all we wanted to ask in exchange for Seth was the source. But we never got the chance since pacifica was so trigger happy.

Edited April 21, 2009 by KingSrqt

[pezstar]

Question why did they retract after they had agreed to a ZI and then later refuse a simple one week war session. If you have valid reasons I can respect that. I'm just wondering.

OV felt as though the other side had done the same thing that Seth did when they attempted to use spied screenshots against them. They decided that they would only give Seth up if either mhawk (who presented the screenshots) or their source were given up for ZI as well.

For the record, OV did not agree to terms. They stated they would think about them.

[Aurion]

That's the one. Sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?

That it very much does.

Tula - I suppose the IOs would make convenient fall guys if worst came to worst, but I'd think the smart money is betting on option 1.