Stumpy Jung Il Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Screenshots of foreign forums have been used by Continuum/Initiative governments in the CBs for several wars. Off the top off my head, GW3 (that one was faked to make it look worse, too) and Illuminati. There were also screenshots of Polar government forums accepted by almost all Coalition governments at that time. If these things were not wrong then nor is what Seth did. Thank you. I think this post sums it up nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Screenshots of foreign forums have been used by Continuum/Initiative governments in the CBs for several wars. Off the top off my head, GW3 (that one was faked to make it look worse, too) and Illuminati. There were also screenshots of Polar government forums accepted by almost all Coalition governments at that time. If these things were not wrong then nor is what Seth did. Then prosecute. No one is stopping you. You must have the evidence since you were party to it. Step and Let them have it. If you don't want to you're either scared or not bothered by it. Both very troubling if it's coming from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Sponge Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Then prosecute. No one is stopping you. You must have the evidence since you were party to it. Step and Let them have it. If you don't want to you're either scared or not bothered by it. Both very troubling if it's coming from you. One of the things you learn when you're in alliance leadership for any period of time is that your own personal will to do something is not always shared by your compatriots, and depending on the governmental system the alliance possesses that may well hamstring any controversial undertaking. Good job jumping right in with the 'do something about it' line normally reserved for NPO and company. You've got a future as a mouthpiece for the hegemony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Double standards people, double standards... Just pathetic. Grow up and stop messing with OV; or ZI yourselves first.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Then prosecute. No one is stopping you. You must have the evidence since you were party to it. Step and Let them have it. If you don't want to you're either scared or not bothered by it. Both very troubling if it's coming from you. Actually the point here is that you guys only seem to care and consider it this great crime when it isn't someone on your side doing it. We're not the ones trying to paint accepting this kind of information as a great and terrible thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 One of the things you learn when you're in alliance leadership for any period of time is that your own personal will to do something is not always shared by your compatriots, and depending on the governmental system the alliance possesses that may well hamstring any controversial undertaking.Good job jumping right in with the 'do something about it' line normally reserved for NPO and company. You've got a future as a mouthpiece for the hegemony. Well it seems to be the reasonable approach. Here's you a few posts back: "It's all a moot point because while NPO is certainly willing to do something about it when other people do it to them, no one is willing to do something about it when NPO does it. We can sit here and complain about it until we're blue in the face but until someone steps up and does something to stop all this nonsense nothing is going to change." What's the difference between what I said and you said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Actually the point here is that you guys only seem to care and consider it this great crime when it isn't someone on your side doing it. We're not the ones trying to paint accepting this kind of information as a great and terrible thing. So you don't mind spying on any level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I know, but it was right in his mind. Which is the point. Everyone has a different standard to grade crime and punishment. Either the offending alliance takes the punishment or fights it. I'm hoping for fights even if I would've accepted the single ZI for myself if I had done the deed. I probably would expel a member from my own alliance for being so foolhardy to put the whole alliance at risk for being curious. You have a right to say what punishment is fair to those that wrong you. I won't fuss. Just give everyone the same respect. An apology might be warranted. However given the way NPO and all approached giving their ultimatum, I would have left the conversation with their pathetic attempts at bullying and refusing to present evidence and instead extort a confession through intimidation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Wilson Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 One of the things you learn when you're in alliance leadership for any period of time is that your own personal will to do something is not always shared by your compatriots, and depending on the governmental system the alliance possesses that may well hamstring any controversial undertaking.Good job jumping right in with the 'do something about it' line normally reserved for NPO and company. You've got a future as a mouthpiece for the hegemony. You expect any better? He is after all one of TPF's, and by association, NPO's meat shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaghul Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) So you don't mind spying on any level? Being given information is not the same thing as acting as a spy. Why is that so difficult to understand? Edited April 20, 2009 by Azaghul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Then prosecute. No one is stopping you. You must have the evidence since you were party to it. Step and Let them have it. If you don't want to you're either scared or not bothered by it. Both very troubling if it's coming from you. Oh, this again. Someone shows a glaring double standard in your position and you retreat back to the tried-and-true retort, "Do something about it". Do you realize what you're saying? You're accepting the fact that you have a double standard and turning around and justifying it with "might makes right". Honestly I don't know how or why you keep this up but it's just plain sad. The fact that you keep up with this line of reasoning, if it can be called that, is because you're either scared not to or not bothered by it. Both very troubling if it's coming from you. Edited April 20, 2009 by Moridin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't believe that receiving information from a leak is wrong, and this belief is clearly shared by most governments since they do it frequently – surely they're not all doing something they believe is wrong? Therefore, it is not wrong in this case either, and the reason it is being claimed as such is because some people want a war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 An apology might be warranted. However given the way NPO and all approached giving their ultimatum, I would have left the conversation with their pathetic attempts at bullying and refusing to present evidence and instead extort a confession through intimidation. I didn't say I agreed with their interrogation tactics. I only said they had a right to submit to the offenders a punishment that they believe is fit. the same as MK would have the right to punish them as they see fit. You may not have noticed but Pacifica is a target for spies. I'm sure they have more than the average alliance ya know per capita. So if I were them I would want to make a firm but not too overbearing punishment to at least try to deter any further spying. We all know it won't work and VOX and every other spy organization will continue to target them but hey sometimes you need to make your mark and enforce it or else nobody would care if they accepted screenies of NPO's forums any more because all you will have to do is put up a public apology and stay away from gov for awhile. Seems a bit unfair to me to ask someone to play soft like that. Especially when it involves alliance security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Sponge Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 What's the difference between what I said and you said? What I said was in an analytical tone. Yours was in an aggressive tone meant to bait someone into attacking. When I say "this isn't going to change because no one is willing to do anything about it" it is quite a bit different from the "hurr why don't you do something about it" attitude that you take. Where I was presenting a problem and a possible solution, you were attempting to belittle your presumptive opponents. Basically the difference between what I said and what you said is that I said it in a classy, well spoken manner and you came off looking like an overaggressive jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kroknia Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I thought in GW3 we tried to do something about it... It didn't work so why put ourselves at a disadvantage for the rest of our time? I don't mind leaked screen shots. I don't think an alliance without treaties with another should be required to give them all possible information to catch a spy. The party that gets info simply isn't involved at all with the spied upon alliance. If the spied upon alliance wanted everyone to give info to them about who is spying on them, they would have made an effort to start a precedent of doing it or created a better relationship so that people would want to. It certainly isn't obligatory and we know that all the accusing alliances do it too. If you think looking at the screen shot was so terrible, maybe you should do something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electron Sponge Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I didn't say I agreed with their interrogation tactics. I only said they had a right to submit to the offenders a punishment that they believe is fit. the same as MK would have the right to punish them as they see fit. You may not have noticed but Pacifica is a target for spies. I'm sure they have more than the average alliance ya know per capita. So if I were them I would want to make a firm but not too overbearing punishment to at least try to deter any further spying. We all know it won't work and VOX and every other spy organization will continue to target them but hey sometimes you need to make your mark and enforce it or else nobody would care if they accepted screenies of NPO's forums any more because all you will have to do is put up a public apology and stay away from gov for awhile. Seems a bit unfair to me to ask someone to play soft like that. Especially when it involves alliance security. ZI'ing someone, declaring war on an alliance and other punitive acts don't stop spying. If it did, spying would have ceased after the Citrus War. NPO's policy in regards to spies has been an utter failure and has perhaps encouraged more spying than it has discouraged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't believe that receiving information from a leak is wrong, and this belief is clearly shared by most governments since they do it frequently – surely they're not all doing something they believe is wrong? Therefore, it is not wrong in this case either, and the reason it is being claimed as such is because some people want a war. He didn't receive it from a leak or disgruntled Pacifican. He took it straight from a known spy ring. I'll say it again if anyone can prove that NPO took screenies from someone knowing what they were getting then by all means give Pacifica your thoughts on who is responsible and what the punishment is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChairmanHal Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I hear things. Hell this war was supposed to start in late February. Well actually it was supposed to have started around the 14th of February, then sometime in March...maybe...then the end of March for sure, then perhaps a week or two after that. We all hear things, the question is when people are going to stop with the "what's the definition of naivete?" and "what's the definition of spying?" and get on with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 What I said was in an analytical tone. Yours was in an aggressive tone meant to bait someone into attacking. When I say "this isn't going to change because no one is willing to do anything about it" it is quite a bit different from the "hurr why don't you do something about it" attitude that you take. Where I was presenting a problem and a possible solution, you were attempting to belittle your presumptive opponents.Basically the difference between what I said and what you said is that I said it in a classy, well spoken manner and you came off looking like an overaggressive jerk. Then you misunderstand me Sponge. I'm saying if you got a real beef then do it. You should stand up and do what's right for yourself. Pacifica is obviously doing it. All of you have the same right. I understand how you got that impression. After all it is me. I'm not trying to "bait" anyone into attacking. If you feel wronged then fight. Pacifica feels wronged. They're fighting to keep their alliance secure. Though with you on the case they have a steep hill to climb. If you don't mind people passing info about your alliance around, fine. Do nothing. That is your right too. Don't look down upon those who won't stand for it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 He didn't receive it from a leak or disgruntled Pacifican. He took it straight from a known spy ring So what? If he'd taken it from a Pacifican, would it be okay then? I don't see that it makes any difference unless he asked Blackstone to get him a particular piece of secret information – which has not even been suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 If you think looking at the screen shot was so terrible, maybe you should do something about it. If my allies go to war over it I will back them up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 If my allies go to war over it I will back them up on it. I sure hope you will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 So what? If he'd taken it from a Pacifican, would it be okay then? I don't see that it makes any difference unless he asked Blackstone to get him a particular piece of secret information – which has not even been suggested. Since that one was used as defense for why some in tC have gotten info then yes I would say it makes a difference. Even then I think it was about spying or plotting or whatever so even that still fell under the defense of your own alliance that I brought up earlier. However, in this case the guy took it knowingly. He could have said no. FFS the guy could have said no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilien Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 (edited) Well actually it was supposed to have started around the 14th of February, then sometime in March...maybe...then the end of March for sure, then perhaps a week or two after that. We all hear things, the question is when people are going to stop with the "what's the definition of naivete?" and "what's the definition of spying?" and get on with it. Then do something about it. Edited April 20, 2009 by Vilien Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I sure hope you will Get in line why don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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