Dazed and Confused

[mpol777]

C'mon sponge. You're deep in the info game too. Spying has been a CB forever, but only if you get caught.

The general use of "caustic belly" in Bob politics is not to have it then move to war, but to move to war then find or invent the excuse. The only reason it is even present is because most folks don't have any hair on their coconuts and are afraid that without something they can wave around as an excuse for war they might be left to do the deed on their own. I've certainly helped find, embellish, invent and provoke "reasons" for war in the past to fulfill those needs for past allies. Pretty sure those are still referred to as GW2 and GW3.

[King Srqt]

Honestly 99% of the leaders in any alliance have and will have taken both.

this whole thing really reminds me of a quote that Zhadum IO of the NPO has carried in his sig for years.

We did not "spy" on you. That is the usual propoganda by the NPO. We planted a member in your organization to find out if anyone from the NPO was spying on us.

- Lord Extelleron/His Majesty proving "(he) didn't spy on us."

[Azaghul]

@azaghul The guy asked if he wanted screenies of NPO's forums and the guy said yes. He knew what he was getting. He may not have asked for it but he knew what he was getting. He actively chose to take what the guy was offering.

Being willing to accept something and actively seeking it isn't the same thing.

[D34th]

There are very few ways to a spy be caught and counter-spying is one of the most effective forms of do it.

For me what do you guys are saying is: "You can't conter-spy because it's immoral, you need find a most honorable way to get the spies and if you can't find it let them free"

While the spy of BC and the guy who accepted the SS spied for steal vital info(warchest informations) of NPO, all NPO did was get info to get the spy(at least is that we know and can prove).

I'm not saying that NPO never spied to get vital info of others alliances but nobody has proofs of that so all you can do is speculate.

[magicninja]

Honestly 99% of the leaders in any alliance have and will have taken both.

this whole thing really reminds me of a quote that Zhadum IO of the NPO has carried in his sig for years.

- Lord Extelleron/His Majesty proving "(he) didn't spy on us."

Fine, then everyone does it but it's only a problem if you get caught right?

I wouldn't take screenies of Vanguard's forums if they were offered up. I would take poroof of Stumpy spying on us.

"I may be a !@#$%^& but I'm not a !@#$@#$ !@#$%^&."-George Cloooney, From Dusk til Dawn

You're sick man.

Edited April 20, 2009 by magicninja

[magicninja]

Being willing to accept something and actively seeking it isn't the same thing.

Maybe to an extent. However, the guy actively stuck out his arm and accepted the package. He wasn't tricked into it or anything. That's the point.

[bkphysics]

Ok I didn't wanna split hairs but hey why not?

I think there is a fundamental difference in spying to defend your alliance and spying to gain sensitive information that could help in the destruction of an alliance. Both are underhanded and in my view wrong in principle. However, I can more tolerate taking information to defend yourself. It's not like NPO is seeking screenies of Vanguard's or MK's or Rok's or Gremlins private high security forums to help them win the next war. They are trying to plug leaks in their own alliance. I think there is a difference.

I'm sure those of you who wanna hate on the powers that be will want to look past the difference but hey that's why you're here.

Whose to say when an alliance is in the defense or being offensive when it comes to spying? For all we know, the information that TPF/NPO/TORN used came from their active spying operations inside of OV? Sure it could of been some leak inside of OV, but we cannot know the truth beyond someone's word until the source of the information is divulged.

Either way, if you want to get your panties in a bunch about spying, you best be ready to explain yourself when the information you are using to damn your target was procured via spying.

[magicninja]

Whose to say when an alliance is in the defense or being offensive when it comes to spying? For all we know, the information that TPF/NPO/TORN used came from their active spying operations inside of OV? Sure it could of been some leak inside of OV, but we cannot know the truth beyond someone's word until the source of the information is divulged.

Either way, if you want to get your panties in a bunch about spying, you best be ready to explain yourself when the information you are using to damn your target was procured via spying.

We don't know but the only info they used in this case was to defend their alliance. That much has been shown.

[King Srqt]

Fine, then everyone does it but it's only a problem if you get caught right?

I wouldn't take screenies of Vanguard's forums if they were offered up. I would take poroof of Stumpy spying on us.

I may be a !@#$%^& but I'm not a !@#$@#$ !@#$%^&. You're sick man.

It is a problem when you hold others to a different standard than you hold yourself. If you can spy than others can spy thats the way I see it.

I dont know what all those symbols mean so you will excuse me if I do not respond to them.

[Merrie Melodies]

Don't get me wrong here, I have a lot of fondness for NPO and many of their members, but to be quite honest, they lost any credibility on the spying front when "Under Cover Goon" was released.

I would find it hard to believe their M.O. would have changed much in the time that has lapsed.

I still find the amount of posturing over receiving intel from others outside your alliance hilarious. Good thing we don't have any reporters running around trying to get the "scoop" they would all be perma ZI for trying to do their job.

[magicninja]

It is a problem when you hold others to a different standard than you hold yourself. If you can spy than others can spy thats the way I see it.

I dont know what all those symbols mean so you will excuse me if I do not respond to them.

I know I quoted a movie. If you go back and have seen the flick maybe you can piece it together. If not it's no big deal.

I wouldn't chastise you or anyone for accepting evidence of spying from someone else. I would only look at you cross if you were sending out spies to try to find some sensitive intel on another alliance that was meant to aid you in some other way.

[Freelancer]

Good thing we don't have any reporters running around trying to get the "scoop" they would all be perma ZI for trying to do their job.

We Do and they are.

[Col John S Mosby]

If someone catches NPO red handed and has undeniable proof that they are actively seeking info and screenies on theri enemies and maybe allies then show it and take them to the toolshed for it.

Oh? Pacifica has never been proven to do anything wrong before? Never spied, never infiltrated, never fabricated CB etc. If so, what consequences did NPO suffer? Is evidence even a factor in these cases or is it might makes right?

Who do you suggest would be taking them to this toolshed? Let's not kid ourselves here.

[King Srqt]

I know I quoted a movie. If you go back and have seen the flick maybe you can piece it together. If not it's no big deal.

I wouldn't chastise you or anyone for accepting evidence of spying from someone else. I would only look at you cross if you were sending out spies to try to find some sensitive intel on another alliance that was meant to aid you in some other way.

OV did not send out spies.

I don't think Seth should get out of this scott free but I also feel considering the context of the situation and content of the screenshots that a resignation form government should be a fair punishment.

[SpiderJerusalem]

Honestly 99% of the leaders in any alliance have and will have taken both.

this whole thing really reminds me of a quote that Zhadum IO of the NPO has carried in his sig for years.

- Lord Extelleron/His Majesty proving "(he) didn't spy on us."

Oh lawd...

But you know as well as I do that what NPO did is perfectly ok

[Vilien]

Honestly, the only way Pacifica and friends could have gotten this information is by accepting information about another alliance that they didn't want out. Whether or not you think that's spying is your call. But having one side chastise the other for it is ridiculous, and if one side is thinking of applying ZI's as punishment then they'd better offer up their own government for the same.

[magicninja]

Oh? Pacifica has never been proven to do anything wrong before? Never spied, never infiltrated, never fabricated CB etc. If so, what consequences did NPO suffer? Is evidence even a factor in these cases or is it might makes right?

Who do you suggest would be taking them to this toolshed? Let's not kid ourselves here.

Well since the sides are evened up and quite possibly against Pacifica these days and with actual spying being mostly hated around here they could conceivably lose more allies if the charges were proven and severe. Then, I think a strong coalition could do it if they had their !@#$ together.

[Letum]

Then your own leaders are one with spies.

I must have missed the part where they went up to a well known group of spies, got all chummy and said "we'll take you in", then those spies mysteriously join the alliance - recruited by the very same people who are all friendly with them, and then they mysteriously get screen shots from these people that they have "no relation with", all the while being explicitly told - beforehand - that it's sensitive info from a third party and collaborating - beforehand - with the protection of their friends which have "accidentally" been recruited into the alliance by claiming they will lay their lives on the line for it, and then logs of them spending 3 days doing exactly that, whilst blaming a bad memory.

That has not happened, unless you want to join the ranks of "BC is a NPO front"

But please, continue with the tunnel vision. So far, we've come to number 7 of the "What people do when they are caught spying" checklist - I eagerly await getting to number 9*. Haven't seen it in any good quantity since early 06.

*If you are wondering, number 9 is the excuse that all this forum and IP evidence is OOC and can't be used ingame.

[magicninja]

OV did not send out spies.

I don't think Seth should get out of this scott free but I also feel considering the context of the situation and content of the screenshots that a resignation form government should be a fair punishment.

Spies even on this level used to be perma-zi'd. I believe NPO offered up a single ZI(with the no selling infra restriction, yes) and that was that. In all fairness each alliance can dictate punishment as they see fit. If a single ZI is what NPO wants maybe people could respect it? No? Well of course it wouldn't be asking too much if it was tailsk wanting to ZI AUT and destroy Soldier for a few comments on IRC which is by far a way less crime then spying. Hell it wouldn't be too much to ask if it was any other alliance save those allied to NPO would it?

[King Srqt]

Spies even on this level used to be perma-zi'd. I believe NPO offered up a single ZI(with the no selling infra restriction, yes) and that was that. In all fairness each alliance can dictate punishment as they see fit. If a single ZI is what NPO wants maybe people could respect it? No? Well of course it wouldn't be asking too much if it was tailsk wanting to ZI AUT and destroy Soldier for a few comments on IRC which is by far a way less crime then spying. Hell it wouldn't be too much to ask if it was any other alliance save those allied to NPO would it?

except you leave out the part where tails' (who is no longer a RoK tri) allies didnt support that and talked him down. Your attempt to paint a double standard fails and is pathetic. Perhaps you should get all the fact before slinging mud.

If OV doesnt think the punishment is fair than they will protect their member. If OV protects their member their allies will protect them.

Edited April 20, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Bob Janova]

Screenshots of foreign forums have been used by Continuum/Initiative governments in the CBs for several wars. Off the top off my head, GW3 (that one was faked to make it look worse, too) and Illuminati. There were also screenshots of Polar government forums accepted by almost all Coalition governments at that time. If these things were not wrong then nor is what Seth did.

[Col John S Mosby]

Well since the sides are evened up and quite possibly against Pacifica these days and with actual spying being mostly hated around here they could conceivably lose more allies if the charges were proven and severe. Then, I think a strong coalition could do it if they had their !@#$ together.

Spying is the most hated thing? Please. To me, the most harmful thing on Planet Bob is might makes right. I don't see anything changing about that; only who will be doing the dominating-by-force in the aftermath.

If there is going to be a war on might-makes-right, I'll gladly sacrifice my nation for that. I cannot understand being enthusiastic about fighting against spying or to see who gets to be the next top dog. Kid stuff.

I advise those who want freedom and sovereignty to stay out of wars like that.

[magicninja]

except you leave out the part where tails' (who is no longer a RoK tri) allies didnt support that and talked him down. Your attempt to paint a double standard fails and is pathetic. Perhaps you should get all the fact before slinging mud.

I know, but it was right in his mind. Which is the point. Everyone has a different standard to grade crime and punishment. Either the offending alliance takes the punishment or fights it. I'm hoping for fights even if I would've accepted the single ZI for myself if I had done the deed. I probably would expel a member from my own alliance for being so foolhardy to put the whole alliance at risk for being curious.

You have a right to say what punishment is fair to those that wrong you. I won't fuss. Just give everyone the same respect.

[Electron Sponge]

Screenshots of foreign forums have been used by Continuum/Initiative governments in the CBs for several wars. Off the top off my head, GW3 (that one was faked to make it look worse, too) and Illuminati. There were also screenshots of Polar government forums accepted by almost all Coalition governments at that time. If these things were not wrong then nor is what Seth did.

It's all a moot point because while NPO is certainly willing to do something about it when other people do it to them, no one is willing to do something about it when NPO does it. We can sit here and complain about it until we're blue in the face but until someone steps up and does something to stop all this nonsense nothing is going to change.

[Xavii]

I must have missed the part where they went up to a well known group of spies, got all chummy and said "we'll take you in", then those spies mysteriously join the alliance - recruited by the very same people who are all friendly with them, and then they mysteriously get screen shots from these people that they have "no relation with", all the while being explicitly told - beforehand - that it's sensitive info from a third party and collaborating - beforehand - with the protection of their friends which have "accidentally" been recruited into the alliance by claiming they will lay their lives on the line for it, and then logs of them spending 3 days doing exactly that, whilst blaming a bad memory.

That has not happened, unless you want to join the ranks of "BC is a NPO front"

But please, continue with the tunnel vision. So far, we've come to number 7 of the "What people do when they are caught spying" checklist - I eagerly await getting to number 9*. Haven't seen it in any good quantity since early 06.

*If you are wondering, number 9 is the excuse that all this forum and IP evidence is OOC and can't be used ingame.

Thank you for coming here and telling us the truth about all this. I won't even bother to dispute your so called truth here, since you are obviously biased and anything I say would just be lies and BS right?