Subtleknifewielder Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: As was already given in the #cnrp chat. EMPs do not permanently destroy circuitry over hundreds of miles, they merely disable it in large part and it can rather easily be brought back online, with the exception of the areas next to the bomb. This is my RP outlining doing it. Frankly I don't care whether your recognize it or not. OOC: Incorrect. A good novel to read on that would be John J. Nance's novel Medusa's Child. EMP basically petrifies electronics, rendering it useless, destroyed. EDIT: Corrected mispelled author name. Edited March 6, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: I did not say I RPed it there, I say I verified that the EMP would not permanently disable the electronics. Also your book is fiction, that is a key difference between IRL and fiction. These are the logs from our discussion: Triyun: Of industrial destruction, I think that those cities tend to be more like Manhattan, they don't have that much made there[6:59pm] Sargun: so I get 1000 added on [7:00pm] V_The_King: kk [7:00pm] Sargun: so I have 2000 [7:00pm] Triyun: hoever [7:00pm] Triyun: for the EMP [7:00pm] Triyun: Most of that stuff has some silicon chips damaged [7:00pm] Triyun: It'll be costly [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: Anything directly under the blast [7:00pm] Triyun: but they aren't totally offline [7:00pm] Triyun: right [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: would probably be fried [7:00pm] Triyun: obviously [7:00pm] Wompa[TSI] is now known as Tanis[TSI]. [7:00pm] Sargun: yeah [7:00pm] Sargun: heh [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: and maybe like [7:00pm] V_The_King: Hm, tech sharing is always something that bugged me, but people in general RP the advancing technology. [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: iunno [7:00pm] Tanis[TSI] was granted voice by ChanServ. [7:00pm] Triyun: but we are talking about thousands of square kilometers [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: 2 mile radius? [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: >__> [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: well yeah [7:00pm] Sargun: well V, I'm being reasonable [7:00pm] Triyun: IMO [7:00pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: most of it would be either short circuited [7:01pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: or something like that [7:01pm] MercyFallout[iFOK]: completely fried? No way. This is what I am RPing. Edit @ Sargun: This is my policy speech. It is assumed that in my totalitarian regime when my character says do something they do it. We are not rebuilding the factories destroyed in Shanghai, Hanoi, and Beijing yet. We are still cleaning up, however the area outside the 2 mile radius has been offline for weeks, its not unreasonable that they haven't been restarted. Edited March 6, 2009 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: I did not say I RPed it there, I say I verified that the EMP would not permanently disable the electronics. Also your book is fiction, that is a key difference between IRL and fiction.These are the logs from our discussion: This is what I am RPing. OOC: it may be fiction, but this author knows what he is writing about, if you care to actually read up a little on him. He actually researches his stuff...fiction like that does not alter basic laws of science. Edited March 6, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 OOC: And Vektor has a bachelor of science and wrote several papers on it and has a different view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 OOC: And Vektor has a bachelor of science and wrote several papers on it and has a different view. OOC: Vektor? Are you talking about the person with that forum name? If he has a different view, it's not one shared by the majority of scientists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 OOC: And Vektor has a bachelor of science and wrote several papers on it and has a different view. OOC: I would like to see these papers. My dad has a PHD in physics and works at Northup Grumman, he says EMP's destroy electronics. A Green Beret says that EMP's destroy electronics. Wikipedia says that EMP's destroys electronics. Every source I have looked though says that EMP's are deadly to electronics. I would like to see his credentials, his school, and if the papers are available online I would like to see them, because I want to know how he came to that conclusion when every source I go to says otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) ooc: opps doublepost. Edited March 6, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: For info on exactly what effects they have..please read this article. EDIT: Would you say that's a fairly accurate article based on your previous sources, Uberstein? Edited March 6, 2009 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: For info on exactly what effects they have..please read this article.EDIT: Would you say that's a fairly accurate article based on your previous sources, Uberstein? OOC: Seems good. And for the record, Lavo used a high altitude air burst nuke to create the EMP. That means that there is a large nuclear fallout, not including the fact that major port cities have been hit. Gamma radiation doesn't "go away", you can't rinse it away with a hose. Even lead wont' block it completely. Edited March 6, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavo Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 And for the record, Lavo used a high altitude air burst nuke to create the EMP. That means that there is a large nuclear fallout OOC: This is indeed correct. One of the five nukes launched at the UFE was detonated high up in the air, to maximize the EMP and radiation fallout (which also means there wasn't an actual crater [or that much] created on the ground). In addition, it was detonated in the south, where as Triyun has stated, much of his industry is (from/due to the RDST days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Edit @ Sargun: This is my policy speech. It is assumed that in my totalitarian regime when my character says do something they do it. We are not rebuilding the factories destroyed in Shanghai, Hanoi, and Beijing yet. We are still cleaning up, however the area outside the 2 mile radius has been offline for weeks, its not unreasonable that they haven't been restarted. OOC: I won't argue about the EMP point - that's Mercy's problem. However, I just want to tell you that saying something and a speech and actually doing it are two different things. If possible, just put "and the speech was indeed true, as rebuilding efforts were going on around the UFE" or something near the end of the speech, otherwise this happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavo Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 OOC: Mercy can't access the forums ATM, so he asked me to post this for him. And if you don't believe me, feel free to try and contact him on MSN/AIM/IRC. >_> Keehyuk: ♥ 바나나 ìš°ìœ ~ says:Until I can get home and actually look over this, Triyun. your nation is frozen for reviewing purposes. Keehyuk: ♥ 바나나 ìš°ìœ ~ says: Please do not continue to post in this thread until I have had the time to review. Keehyuk: ♥ 바나나 ìš°ìœ ~ says: I am currently at school and have plans with friends after school so I won't be home until around ten PM EST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 OOC: This is indeed correct. One of the five nukes launched at the UFE was detonated high up in the air, to maximize the EMP and radiation fallout (which also means there wasn't an actual crater [or that much] created on the ground). In addition, it was detonated in the south, where as Triyun has stated, much of his industry is (from/due to the RDST days). OOC: Actually fall out is mostly dirt that has radioactive materials in it. Airbursts produce less fall out than surface strikes. Also, here is the physics of why anything containing a semiconductor is blasted. 1. EMPs are high flux magnetic fields. 2. High flux magnetic fields induce a current proportional to the flux and the length of the wire. 3. Considering the wire is long, and the flux is high, the induced current is high. 4. Diodes have current equal to . 5. Vt is the thermal voltage, and is equal to 6. Now, with a large current, they heat up, then explode / catch fire / burn up. I have done it in the lab, and even 1-2 Amps is enough to make standard diodes go bye by. With the current you are talking about, about 100 amps plus, you will be lucky if the wire on your circuit boards doesn't melt from the heat caused by resistive heat dissipation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian the Mighty Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) ooc: I agree with what LVN said. I'm not nuclear weapons expert, but I've read airbursts create much less radiation than a weapon detonated on the ground. Edit: As for the rest of that stuff he said... yea, um... wut? Edited March 6, 2009 by Justinian the Mighty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) OOC: And Vektor has a bachelor of science and wrote several papers on it and has a different view. Hmm, my argument was with Mercy who thought my entire nation was put in the stoneage/blacked out from Lavo's EMP attack, which turned out to not be the case, due to the range of an EMP (after he looked it up himself..yeah whatever)..AFTER I spend countless hours arguing about it. In regards to the other stuff, if electronics are directly hit, sure, they're dead. But if they are of a modular design, which the Soviets installed in all their aircraft, computers (I think the US did the same), you could easily pull them out and replace them. That is, if you RP'd have EMP protection, since having modular design makes it easier to replace, and you could use gold plated vacuum tubes. Alot of Soviet computers used those. Edited March 6, 2009 by Malatose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasili Markov Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 How is the UFE going to contribute to the rebuilding of the world after the war it was directly responsible for? Hardly a nation on the world is unaffected by the negative side effects caused by the reckless use of nuclear weapons by the UFE and the world environment and agricultural sectors the world over are in ruins and unlikely to recover without help. Speaking just for my nation, before the war we had a vibrant luxury wine industry that is now virtually destroyed due to nuclear winter. Only 2% of our vines have been salvaged and are in a condition that can be considered suitable for commercial wine production. And we will not be able to replanting seeds for several seasons due to the changed environment. I am sure many other nations uninvolved with the war have suffered similar losses to their agricultural industries. A simple sorry will not be sufficient to repair the damage you have done to everyone and I for one would like to see real efforts being made by the UFE to restore the damage it caused to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyFallout Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 OOC: This thread is pending review still. Its 11:00 at night and I'm tired. So it'll have to wait until the morning. However, I will say this. I'm not a weapons genius. I'm not a physicist. So its highly probable that I am wrong. I have Uberstein's argument on the effects of a nuclear EMP already. I would like for Triyun/whoever to send to me via PM their argument on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 ooc: I hope your vehicles didn't have automatic transmissions, if they did, modular or not.. every single automatic transmission propelled vehicle is going to have to be over-hauled. See "The Day After" MGM 1980 to see how this kind of works. Manual transmissions are fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Terra Di Agea Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 ooc: I hope your vehicles didn't have automatic transmissions, if they did, modular or not.. every single automatic transmission propelled vehicle is going to have to be over-hauled. See "The Day After" MGM 1980 to see how this kind of works. Manual transmissions are fine. OOC: On the same note, I hope you don't use external power lines, wireless communication, wired communication, non-emp proofed electronics, modern clocks that do not require winding, electric lights, radar, or anything with a transistor. Those will all die pretty fast. Also, with Lavo's nukes, they were what, 700 kilotons? When he went and said that they were done to do the most damage, which would mean he was probably setting them off around 400km above ground, making the range of the EMP around 700 miles (a 1.4 megaton does 1300, my number there is a guess, and I may very well be wrong). With where Lavo launched them taken into account, all of the UFE, save for the Mongolia Steppe would be wiped out of all electronics that transmit a signal, regardless of what you do to protect it. Have fun, I'll stop posting here now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 OOC: Because I don't remember Triyun RPing EMP-proofing (I could be wrong of course), we'll be seeing a complete blackout in the civilian sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk11 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 OOC: This thread makes me laugh. My PhD this, my bachelor's that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 OOC: This thread makes me laugh. My PhD this, my bachelor's that. OOC: Ahem, it's my DAD'S PhD, not mine. I am perfectly serious though, he has a PhD. But why use anecdotal evidence when you can use real evidence? Walls of Text: http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/...rt/1984/ERD.htm Good Sources: http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb4.htm http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/effects21.shtml http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#ebomb Though the last one is more about outer space. <__< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) OOC: I believe Vektor has given his argument. He states about 2 weeks of rebuilding from when I started on this should get me back online. Which considering the capital and material support from Japan and Viniland seems fair enough Edited March 8, 2009 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) OOC: I believe Vektor has given his argument. He states about 2 weeks of rebuilding from when I started on this should get me back online. Which considering the capital and material support from Japan and Viniland seems fair enough OOC: That is what Mercy granted me, anyway. :/ Two and a half weeks. Edited March 8, 2009 by Malatose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyFallout Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 OOC: I believe Vektor has given his argument. He states about 2 weeks of rebuilding from when I started on this should get me back online. Which considering the capital and material support from Japan and Viniland seems fair enough OOC: That is what Mercy granted me, anyway. :/ Two and a half weeks. OOC: I granted VektorZero that much time as, as I remember, he was not hit by any nuclear weapons in airburst or groundburst format. (If I am mistaken, then that will be fixed.) You were hit by five. From what I have been given to understand, a nuclear EMP is much different than from a regular EMP. I'm not saying that it completely killed your cities. I already made that clear. However, the damage from that nuclear onslaught should take much longer than two weeks. Given, at the very least, that four of your major cities have been hit pretty darn hard. From what Uberstein has given me to read (interesting stuff by the way), your nation should take a good deal longer to recover. If anyone recovers quickly from this nuclear war, it would be Mudd (seeing as how his major industrial centers were untouched and no airbursts occured). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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