Justinian the Mighty Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 But then we have to change the rule. Are we going to break the rules? What do we play by, realism or stats? I vote realism with a dash of madness. No but really someone will probably come up with a modifier here, that we can hopefully all agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 But we play with ingame stats here. This is the standard around here, we play with our stats. It's what the general agreement was, so we have to use it. Don't like it? Put it up to vote for the entire community and get the rule changed. There is no real rule existing in this area. I think I've forged new territory.. that said, sure, people may say what they will on this. I'll abide by what is developed long as it isn't some weird scale with variables to affect who benefits. Equations are pretty indiscriminate. Forging new territory, is also not god-moding. I'm actually offended I've been accused of it when I tread so lightly on how I do things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Terra Di Agea Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Still, a large coutnry will not have 50 spy's. Realism does not compute in that respect.Its like soidler rule; when it coems down to it stat-wise, the actual spy population counts (well, the spy operation chances). But for RP, it only limits RP's when we go by the in-game. If it comes down to a community vote, I vote for Maelstrom's side of the argument. A country would have more, true, but in reality, spies are far more concomitant than then are in the movies. Go check it out, the majority of spies were government workers convinced to steal information from their employers. Then on top of it, they were often self destructive alcoholics who would get caught after three or four dead drops. Granted, there are exceptions to that, but those are very few, and the guys who were really good would number really darn low, the rest would weed themselves out pretty fast. It's notoriously hard to make a spy blend in. Spies from the US in the USSR were caught by seeing how big of bites they took, and how they held their cigarettes. Culture and body language takes years to learn living in the country constantly, it isn't something that you can pick up in a quick course, and it isn't something that you can learn in a class full of people. Hence the difference between a spy and an agent. A spy blends in perfectly, stays hidden and doesn't draw attention to their self, whereas an agent is sort of hidden, and when their cover is blown, they shoot their way out and run away. Good spies are nigh impossible to find, a real nation would be lucky to have fifty that were truly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I believe there should be only one rule concerning spies: If you're talking about humans, RP their movements of getting into the country, not pull them out suddenly like this case. As for electronic, that's tech stuff, so I wouldn't talk on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahsir Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Well if there is a claim that not all the "spies" are really "spies" then the 90% success rate doesnt work for those non-spies. Infact it they would probably get caught at massive rates, and the handful that wern't are probably so inept at what a trained spy can do would probably choke on the roll of microfilm they tried to swallow after taking upskirt camera shots all day. Honestly this is just starting to look like "we hate sumer. There for we will metagame a reason to find her" Seriously, let it go. I don't see anyone IC sending spy squads into any of the other DKT citizen filled countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 No, this is simply, 'You are not invulnerable, hurry up and realise it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasili Markov Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 ooc: I almost never lie in the real world. I willt ell you this much. He wasn't telling the truth. I wrote that whole post for Nebu II and Zeek just edited it. I submitted the logs of the entire conversation we had in IRC plotting against Camberlain to HK47 so he could make his final decision on the issue. I think his decision is fair and equitable. The post was presented as the Truth without any evidence otherwise to let the world react. I guess we now have to tell people when we're lying to them in IC so as to prevent "accusations of metagaming".. which will of course result in some folks not reacting the same as if they had thought it was in fact truth, therefore a kind of tainted meta-gaming also. I feel so sorry for Ezequiel. His diplomatic coup was perfectly executed. We can't even make a false claim any more without people saying. "YOU LIE" in ooc.. instead of reacting in RP. That's the crappy area the rp on these boards are rapidly heading for. I agree Ezequiel's post would of been perfectly valid if it is viewed as him making a false claim and saying it is a fact. But people reacted as if he had concrete evidence when he never actually did present any evidence other than his testimony. I also feel that the amount of OOC comments has gotten out of hand with speculation and questioning of every IC action becoming increasingly commonplace. Out of character comments have no place in a RP and should be put in this thread and not in the actual RP because they tend to derail threads. And I do not want to spend more time reading OOC comments than actual IC content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Well if there is a claim that not all the "spies" are really "spies" then the 90% success rate doesnt work for those non-spies. Infact it they would probably get caught at massive rates, and the handful that wern't are probably so inept at what a trained spy can do would probably choke on the roll of microfilm they tried to swallow after taking upskirt camera shots all day.Honestly this is just starting to look like "we hate sumer. There for we will metagame a reason to find her" Seriously, let it go. I don't see anyone IC sending spy squads into any of the other DKT citizen filled countries. And not a single spy has come after Uberstein even though everyone things he nuked Scandinavia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) I agree Ezequiel's post would of been perfectly valid if it is viewed as him making a false claim and saying it is a fact. But people reacted as if he had concrete evidence when he never actually did present any evidence other than his testimony. I also feel that the amount of OOC comments has gotten out of hand with speculation and questioning of every IC action becoming increasingly commonplace. Out of character comments have no place in a RP and should be put in this thread and not in the actual RP because they tend to derail threads. And I do not want to spend more time reading OOC comments than actual IC content. ITs even worse that you have to tell the world you are lying. It would be better if people thought about it, and then made a decision (like in RL) if you were lying or not based on their view of you / your record etc instead of having to assume its true (and therefore a godmod) or even worse, having to put a ooc "its a lie" tag on it. And not a single spy has come after Uberstein even though everyone things he nuked Scandinavia! Not worth our effort. Edited January 30, 2009 by LeVentNoir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Well if there is a claim that not all the "spies" are really "spies" then the 90% success rate doesnt work for those non-spies. Infact it they would probably get caught at massive rates, and the handful that wern't are probably so inept at what a trained spy can do would probably choke on the roll of microfilm they tried to swallow after taking upskirt camera shots all day.Honestly this is just starting to look like "we hate sumer. There for we will metagame a reason to find her" Seriously, let it go. I don't see anyone IC sending spy squads into any of the other DKT citizen filled countries. You should watch who you speak for and reconsider my motivations. You do not know my intent. Only I do and the few I disclose it to. For the record, I co-operated with Sumeragi in my last intrusion into DKT's affairs in a recent intelligence thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 A country would have more, true, but in reality, spies are far more concomitant than then are in the movies. Go check it out, the majority of spies were government workers convinced to steal information from their employers. Then on top of it, they were often self destructive alcoholics who would get caught after three or four dead drops.Granted, there are exceptions to that, but those are very few, and the guys who were really good would number really darn low, the rest would weed themselves out pretty fast. It's notoriously hard to make a spy blend in. Spies from the US in the USSR were caught by seeing how big of bites they took, and how they held their cigarettes. Culture and body language takes years to learn living in the country constantly, it isn't something that you can pick up in a quick course, and it isn't something that you can learn in a class full of people. Hence the difference between a spy and an agent. A spy blends in perfectly, stays hidden and doesn't draw attention to their self, whereas an agent is sort of hidden, and when their cover is blown, they shoot their way out and run away. Good spies are nigh impossible to find, a real nation would be lucky to have fifty that were truly good. This is why we have in game %'s to determine success rates. To determine how well trained.. how proficient a particular set of spies is. Mine clearly outclass Camberlain's statistically. They have been being trained for the duration I have had them IG.. which is at least half the time my nation has actually existed IG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahsir Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 You should watch who you speak for and reconsider my motivations. You do not know my intent. Only I do and the few I disclose it to. For the record, I co-operated with Sumeragi in my last intrusion into DKT's affairs in a recent intelligence thread. The first part was directed at the issue some where complaing about that "not all were spies" was brought up somewhere. The second part was directed at sources that seem to be targeting camberline exlusively for no real IC reason. I never said anyone's name or intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 The first part was directed at the issue some where complaing about that "not all were spies" was brought up somewhere. The second part was directed at sources that seem to be targeting camberline exlusively for no real IC reason. I never said anyone's name or intent. Okay.. just making sure. MV has very real reasons to dislike Camberlain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirreille Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 In regards to the spies, I don't think we have ever had a hard and fast rule. Most of the time people seem to go by the % odds they have with a particular nation, but I am not completely comfortable with that. For one thing in modern times spying is much more about information gathering and processing then it is about James Bond style antics. As someone already pointed out, a really good spy is really,really hard to come by. For the record, I only consider my spies to be truly effective within my SOI; anything outside of that area would be limited to agent types, and whatever information we could buy/eavesdrop. In other words, not that much. Saying you have good odds against most every nation on the planet seems quite ludicrous to me. A Palitine agent trying to insinuate himself into Ile de Noir would be laughably easy to spot, since the cultural differences alone would be huge, just as an example. I'm really not sure what the point is in this relentless pursuit of Sumeragi's people is all about, it seems to be coming close to a witch hunt, since she doesn't even seem to be doing anything and all the actions are being justified by past events. When does it end and you all let her have a nation again? I'm just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 When does it end and you all let her have a nation again? I'm just curious. When all my leaders are killed/locked up and my people are kowtowing to the Emperor of UFE. Unfortuantely, I'm about the most tenacious person around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) In regards to the spies, I don't think we have ever had a hard and fast rule. Most of the time people seem to go by the % odds they have with a particular nation, but I am not completely comfortable with that. For one thing in modern times spying is much more about information gathering and processing then it is about James Bond style antics. As someone already pointed out, a really good spy is really,really hard to come by. For the record, I only consider my spies to be truly effective within my SOI; anything outside of that area would be limited to agent types, and whatever information we could buy/eavesdrop. In other words, not that much. Saying you have good odds against most every nation on the planet seems quite ludicrous to me. A Palitine agent trying to insinuate himself into Ile de Noir would be laughably easy to spot, since the cultural differences alone would be huge, just as an example. I'm really not sure what the point is in this relentless pursuit of Sumeragi's people is all about, it seems to be coming close to a witch hunt, since she doesn't even seem to be doing anything and all the actions are being justified by past events. When does it end and you all let her have a nation again? I'm just curious. When I have enough evidence to prove Camberlain's treachery.. it's already happened. And I completely agree with the rest of everything you have posted and am operating on the basis of those assumptions. At least, that's when it ends for MV. Edited January 30, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firestorm Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 When they've properly humbled and humiliated her for all the times she has out-smarted them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahsir Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 I was really hoping for something shorter than the second law of thermodynamics destroying the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirreille Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 When they've properly humbled and humiliated her for all the times she has out-smarted them. That shouldn't take too long.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 That shouldn't take too long.... Not really, because they're up for several surprises. As I said, I'm a tenacious person. I get things finished on my terms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Excuse me?Usually it helps to know what godmodding is before throwing the term around like a baby with their dirty diaper. There is not a single godmod in that statement in the slightest. There is not even a single strech in the slightest. Does nobody understand that you cannot saywhat somebody else's response is? I thought it was fairly obvious by telling somebody what their OWN investigation would turn up would be godmodding. If I have to explain something as simple as that, there's something wrong. You cannot dictate what someone else's investigations or spy attempts find out unless both parties agree beforehand (or if it's actually physically impossible to get something). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Not worth our effort. Sooo..why is Sumeragi worth your effort? I did an attack that rained radioactive cobalt across all of Scandinavia, she has unconnected radicals attack some politicians. I think it's just because you guys are taking OOC into IC and trying to remove her from CNRP just because you don't like her OOC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Sooo..why is Sumeragi worth your effort?I did an attack that rained radioactive cobalt across all of Scandinavia, she has unconnected radicals attack some politicians. I think it's just because you guys are taking OOC into IC and trying to remove her from CNRP just because you don't like her OOC. The issue we have with Sumeragi IC, is that she keeps fighting and causing issues after we step in and say enough. Sumeragi started as my protectorate, then undertook military action unilaterally inside RUSSIA when my relations with them were less than good. She was known for undertaking hostile action against us, and needed to be put an end too. Believe me, we have not forgotten about you either. Also FYI I did offer Sumeragi the chance to have a non-military state around my city of Wuhan, where her people could live in peace, and I could live in security a few days ago. She said no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) The issue we have with Sumeragi IC, is that she keeps fighting and causing issues after we step in and say enough. Sumeragi started as my protectorate, then undertook military action unilaterally inside RUSSIA when my relations with them were less than good. She was known for undertaking hostile action against us, and needed to be put an end too. Believe me, we have not forgotten about you either. Also FYI I did offer Sumeragi the chance to have a non-military state around my city of Wuhan, where her people could live in peace, and I could live in security a few days ago. She said no. Why would anyone accept such a deal if they had her kind of RP? Her entire government was militarist, a non-military state would be a crippling blow against them. Besides, knowing the NPO's tendancy to backstab (NpO comes to mind), chances are you would simply attack her after she was de-militarised and within your reach unlike now. I would say it's a smart move to not accept that offer. Also, I've taken great care to hide Uberstein, but I've made little hints in some of my posts. Have fun. Edited January 30, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Yes, we get it, you don't like NPO. Apparently you forget this isn't alliance politics. I suggest you get over trolling the NPO is a forum that alliances play no part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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