New environment effect

[Master-Debater]

Im fine with losing my income.

But losing the population is total BS.

This update screws over anyone with resources that make you lose enviroment.

WTG...Again.....another update that people seem dead set against.......again

Edit:

After seeing the effects on my nation....im glad the happyness isnt as huge a loss as it used to be. I lost about 13k citizens and about 500k in income, after taxes, so its not as bad as it could have been....which is good.

Im still not a huge fan of the fact that this hurts those nations that either start with bad resources or are trying to get trades but one of them is a "bad" one.

Also. If this isnt tweaked a bit then pretty soon youll see alliances telling there members to re-roll their nations until they get a decent set that doesnt kill there population count.

And ill say again. Losing the happyness is a better effect than population. A terrible enviroment can still have people, ther just sick and unhappy.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Master-Debater

[Cuatela]

Yeah, I really don't like this update. I pretty much put me in bill-lock.

[Junkalunka]

These updates, it seems, will make it so only the skilled and committed players will be able to manage their nation in such a manner as to grow efficiently, instead of those players who merely join big or rich alliances and get swamped with aid. In other words it takes gameplay back to the nation management level.

Fairly reasonable, isnt it?

[Lord Frost]

These updates, it seems, will make it so only the skilled and committed players will be able to manage their nation in such a manner as to grow efficiently, instead of those players who merely join big or rich alliances and get swamped with aid. In other words it takes gameplay back to the nation management level.

Fairly reasonable, isnt it?

if by reasonable you mean "Reasonable deterrant for new players to join the game" then yes, your absolutely right

going back to nation management is one thing, but making it rediculously hard to even gain population and income is another matter entirely

Edited May 20, 2008 by Lord Frost

[Junkalunka]

if by reasonable you mean "Reasonable deterrant for new players to join the game" then yes, your absolutely right

No, I think it may attract players who seek a real challenge in growing their nation, because it will require some skill and study rather than just aid from some big alliance.

To new players that join this will seem normal, they will not have a viewpoint of pre-update CN. It offers some spectacular opportunites for new players who join with a fresh mind. It does mean that the "masses" who are not committed will simply not grow as large, which definitely shifts the advantage to those who choose to bother.

EDIT I still havent looked at all the numbers and such yet... I think most of us have not, so give this a chance and a few days and work things out.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Junkalunka

[Aratar]

My environment is "decently clean" at 4.09, despite of that I lost 2,000 out of 42,000 working citizens and half a million of daily income. This is very much for my small nation! :/ Affluent population bonus resource becomes useless, since penalty for coal takes away more citizens than the bonus gives. :/

This update is seriously bad.

[Lord Frost]

....real challenge in growing their nation....

ok let me be a little clearer on this.

In order to see ANY profit from collecting taxes and paying bills ive had to:

1. Decom my entire airforce

2. decom as many tanks as the game would let me

3. lose over 1k NS

Do you remember how hard it was to build a nation when you first joined? I do. It was a friggin pain, Especially when I got into war. And do you remember what war was like for new players dont you? literal months of work easily demolished in a matter of hours, days even. With these new changes, its even easier to go into bill lock then before. Growing will take an immense longer amount of time now. New players will get pretty sick of not bieng able to pay bills (consequently not bieng able to do ANYTHING) pretty darn fast.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Lord Frost

[Junkalunka]

Do you remember how hard it was to build a nation when you first joined? I do. It was a friggin pain, Especially when I got into war. And do you remember what war was like for new players dont you? literal months of work easily demolished in a matter of hours, days even.

It really was not hard to grow at all with some "cookie cutter" aid and advice as admin termed it, I remember I grew fairly rapidly as an FCC member. It was too easy to grow rapidly in my opinion, lacking skill, all you needed was aid and a guide and you were set.

Also, I must say now I am rather familiar with losing months of work in war.

With these new changes, its even easier to go into bill lock then before. Growing will take an immense longer amount of time now. New players will get pretty sick of not bieng able to pay bills (consequently not bieng able to do ANYTHING) pretty darn fast.

Growing in comparison to the old system will be slower, however relative growth compared to other players will be the same.

Now I DO think admin should have given some advance warning, or preferably instead opened a new server with an overhauled game system like a few other games do. Still the changes do add an element of brains over brawn to the game now.

[Lord Monkey]

This update really sucks. People who trade for coal, oil, and other non environment friendly resources are screwed. I lost 4k citizens and about 600k income from this.

[prather6]

This is a terrible up date aimed directly at the mid level nations. I suspect we will see fewer donations as well as an inbound frustration creating a mass exodus of players. This update destroyed the population levels right from the start. At least it could have been grandfathered in; to which all nations started at a minimal environmental level for a few days to allow for a reorganization of goals for each nation. Instead of devastating many nations into bill lock through substantial drops in population levels and income due to reorganization of trades.

[Londo Mollari]

I just realized that rubber is comparatively a much better resource now, actually. People used to make 3BR circles with coal for fast growth... since coal is poisonous now that role will shift to rubber with its -3% infra cost and -10% land cost. So my personal situation has actually improved, since a 3BR with rubber is eminently viable now, because of the reduced infra and land costs, where it was not before. My aluminum and rubber will now fit naturally into one of those.

Still, a lot of nations that I have spent days and days of careful work putting into trade circles are now in trouble... and certainly most players with oil, coal, uranium, furs, and silver are now in a worse situation than before.

[Alan Shore]

These updates, it seems, will make it so only the skilled and committed players will be able to manage their nation in such a manner as to grow efficiently, instead of those players who merely join big or rich alliances and get swamped with aid. In other words it takes gameplay back to the nation management level.

Fairly reasonable, isnt it?

Not even remotely so. In order for this game to continue to grow and evolve, we need new people. It needs to be something easy to pick up, easy to figure out, easy to integrate into. As it is, this ill conceived change has presented a massive barrier to that end. Now, anyone under about 6000 infrastructure needs at least advanced knowledge of the game mechanics and how they interact or their nations cannot grow at all. If they do not understand the hidden values of government positions, do not understand the poorly advertised environmental impact of resources, do not understand all the variables that impact environment, they cannot play the game any longer.

A number of advanced, experienced players now are making less in a day than their bills come to because the entire balance of the game was tilted onto it's head with absolutely no warning. Nations that were at the top of their game, making the most of their nations, are now in dire straights because the game no longer plays the way it used to. This is little different than changing the rules for a machine gun in a Quake match to deal damage to the player half way through the battle with no warning. Sure, perhaps if they have some money saved up and weren't just living within their means, as many players do, they can recover, but what about those that didn't have any money saved up? The ones who were playing the game day to day? They either are going to need to get enough aid in the next few days to replace the citizens they lost so they can buy border walls or they are going to lost their nations due to bill lock.

The thing of it is, due to the poorly designed nature of this improvement, it isn't enough just to swap out your latest economic improvement for border walls, some of the mid range nations will have to demolish a half dozen improvements or more just to get back an improvement slot they lost due to environment now damaging citizen count. In short, they were playing the game the best it could be played before but now are required to saw off their own arm, cripple their economy, just so they can pay their bills, let alone buy any new infrastructure or advance their nations.

Beyond that, the original suggestion made no sense. Having nuclear weapons in a nation does not damage the environment of a nation in real life. Nuclear weapons are contained warheads stored in subs or gigantic concrete cylinders that effectively isolate them from the environment of the nation they are in. In the real world, which as near I can tell, the individual who proposed with was trying to appeal to, the tiny amount of uranium involved wouldn't even cause the people working next to it to get a cold, let alone significantly dent the population of the nation.

Beyond all this, as explored by the fellow with excellent taste, Mr. Londo Mollari, this seriously screws anyone without a resource set that damages the environment. Unless their trading partner has a massive nation with 5 border walls and the like, accepting a trade for things like uranium and coal can be damaging to your nation. Not only does it damage nations that are trading for those resources, but you have made it extremely difficult for the nations with those resources to trade with anyone.

The bottom line, this update has done significant damage to the game, it has hurt a number of people simply because they played the game well before the update, it has made it virtually impossible for new nations to get ahead, it has destroyed the value of a number or resources, has made the Manhattan Project completely worthless (as any nation small enough to need one would be financially ruined the nukes), and in general has made CN a worse game. I am not saying this to troll or to bait or to goad, but the fact of the matter is, as a player concerned about the welfare, the playability, and the good of this game and community, I respectfully ask admin to either completely remove this update or at the very least dramatically reduce the impact of it so that it does not make the game unplayable for anyone under 6K infra.

[sayton]

Can someone please PM me ingame or on forums.. how much the loss is with 20 nukes? with this new update lol :-D

Please? I would like to know how much money i lose. I use 4 border walls now. My question being, how much happiness to i gain if i decommission ALL 20 of my nukes etc.. How much more would i make in like per person or happiness gains etc..

I want to know if its finally time to decom all my nukes lol

[JoshuaR]

Not even remotely so. In order for this game to continue to grow and evolve, we need new people. It needs to be something easy to pick up, easy to figure out, easy to integrate into. As it is, this ill conceived change has presented a massive barrier to that end. Now, anyone under about 6000 infrastructure needs at least advanced knowledge of the game mechanics and how they interact or their nations cannot grow at all. If they do not understand the hidden values of government positions, do not understand the poorly advertised environmental impact of resources, do not understand all the variables that impact environment, they cannot play the game any longer.

The thing of it is, due to the poorly designed nature of this improvement, it isn't enough just to swap out your latest economic improvement for border walls, some of the mid range nations will have to demolish a half dozen improvements or more just to get back an improvement slot they lost due to environment now damaging citizen count. In short, they were playing the game the best it could be played before but now are required to saw off their own arm, cripple their economy, just so they can pay their bills, let alone buy any new infrastructure or advance their nations.

1. I would submit that nations can still grow well with cookie-cutter guides. The guides just have to incorporate the changes :/. Nevertheless, I do enjoy a bit more than simply logging in, collecting, paying bills, buying infra, and warring. Now we get to nation-build, too. This shouldn't cost our community any players.

2. I agree. The update should have followed at least a day's warning.

[Master-Debater]

It really was not hard to grow at all with some "cookie cutter" aid and advice as admin termed it, I remember I grew fairly rapidly as an FCC member. It was too easy to grow rapidly in my opinion, lacking skill, all you needed was aid and a guide and you were set.

Also, I must say now I am rather familiar with losing months of work in war.

Growing in comparison to the old system will be slower, however relative growth compared to other players will be the same.

Now I DO think admin should have given some advance warning, or preferably instead opened a new server with an overhauled game system like a few other games do. Still the changes do add an element of brains over brawn to the game now.

Actually the relative growth to other members will be way off.

Smaller members will nowmake even less than they did before. They had a hard time to start with and this hurts more.

There is also the fact that the top 5% just got pretty well locked in if they can get decent trades because they now are the only ones making a decent amount of money.

Unless ths is followed with drastic changes to the resources as well as the destruction of the idioti 5% rule then this change really screws a lot of people.

[klaudiO]

so in the end this update didnt work as they expected

[uaciaut]

Wow, 21 pages.

Anyway i'll post again after i went through them all.

And on the change, tbh i like it. I mean environment was pretty much worthless before, now it has a real value.

My main complaint on the subject is that the resources really need tweaking now that this has been implemented, and a few other factors that influence environment should be added (like tech/infra, land/infra a second time; like at if land>infra/2 you get +1 enviro; i think that land/infra should have a more direct influence on the environment really).

Thing is this is gonna hit the 5k-8k nations who import uranium hold nukes and import any other env affecting resources A LOT.

I'll give my nation as an example: I currently have FJ/AP with all pop boosters and uranium. I really looked for a military and income setup with this set (military from max pop). Thing is, given my resources AP became a decent trade setup for me (after it was updated), because despite the fact that i had very little mobility in choosing my other trades (like other income boosters or infra upkeep reduction or infra purchasing ones) i at least had a big income to make up for it and cover the huge bills (and at 8k infra without Iron and Lumber, bills are huge really).

The fact that my environment's up at 7 because i have to import coal and uranium really affects my income and makes AP a worse choice despite the fact that it had become a good one after the update.

Easiest thing to fix this though is for AP to add 1 env point

Anyway, i'd like to see a few more factors that influence env positively based on land/infra, tech/infra, etc and i'd REALLY like to see a resource system that's tweaked more, since uranium coal and oil are really bad resources right now. Again, the change itself i like

[uaciaut]

One more thing; currently the only wonder that affect environment is only available for 13k+ infra nations, is it possible to reduce this requirement to like 6-7k? Due to env adding to inflation so heavily now, i think it would be a good idea too

[Junkalunka]

Zhadum I completely agree with your points regarding nukes and environmental damage and the fact that there was no warning. As I noted it's not fair to change the game so dramatically out of the blue, and this could have been implemented in a gentler manner.

Still, the idea that only elite players can become very large nations in a reasonable timeframe appeals to me, just as in RL most supervisors never become CEOs of major corporations. Perhaps it just needs more tinkering.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Junkalunka

[Master-Debater]

-Snip-

To back some of Zhas post

I lost 7 improvements in this

am sitting just below 6k infa and took a huge hit in my daily income (was about 20% of my income lost)

Lost about 10k citizens as well.

This change royally screws over anyone that isnt a huge nation that already was pulling in 6+ mill a day after taxes.

The damage is to great for a sudden change.

And as Zha pointed out. New players to games dont want to have to spend hours trying to learn it. They want to dive right in and start building citys and blowing people up.

This severly damages the ability of new players in the game to go anywhere without massive aid from alliances.

Some alliances will be fine at this but others will struggle. Not to mention the fact that this almost compleatly does away with the chances of new players staying independent for any amount of time. Tech raiding was a knife in the back, this is a bullet to the face of new members and indies.

[oinkoink12]

I hope admin will change "land" aswell

Change it into Every 1000 miles of land lowers your environment with 0.2

[prather6]

Only locks in the elite players that already existed. It hampers the up and coming ones. A great elitist move I do say, the only ones in support are the ones already on top. Everyone here started from the bottom one time or the other and learning the game is part of the game. With a up date like this many will move on since their chance has already been dictated.

[Hunterman1043]

I support oinkoink.

[Kryievla]

I hope admin will change "land" aswell

Change it into Every 1000 miles of land lowers your environment with 0.2

That would be nice!

[sayton]

Can someone please PM me ingame or on forums.. how much the loss is with 20 nukes? with this new update lol :-D

Please? I would like to know how much money i lose. I use 4 border walls now. My question being, how much happiness to i gain if i decommission ALL 20 of my nukes etc.. How much more would i make in like per person or happiness gains etc..

I want to know if its finally time to decom all my nukes lol