New environment effect

[greenansatsu]

Monarchy was already too strong and would have become ridiculously powerful after today's update. Look at the game demographics, almost 33% of the game is currently in Monarchy. As (DAC)Syzygy has pointed out the main purpose behind today's update is to cut back on some of the cookie cutter nation building and give people real choices to make in the game.

But in all actuality haven't you just replaced Capitalism with Monarchy, and moved Border walls from being one of the last improvements to one of the earlier ones?

There is a question I do have, someone else questioned buying soldiers. If I buy more soldiers my environment goes down as does my population. meaning that I could potentially overbuy soldiers, and with the major influx environment seems to be having on citizen levels this could have a huge change.

Another question though i doubt you'll answer but are all the changes regarding environment negative? I mean I believe I have the best environment I can have at the moment 2.09. 1 environment + the 1.09 GR yet I still lost 10k citizens? I have no more control over my environment at this point, why still the harsh effect. In my opinion while I think GR should hurt environment I think its effect should be separated from normal environment because of this change. A single nation cannot control GR, and it seems unfair to punish the whole for the acts a few rogues. I still say let GR effect world happiness but separate it from the new environment formula.

[diskord]

BEST. UPDATE. EVER.

And you all thought I was silly for hoarding the land... Muahahahaha.

Although I did end up losing like... 100 people.

I would offer more on this change, but I am too busy cackling with glee.

I would wager a pretty penny I was the single least effected person by this update, my infra is ridiculously low for the amount of land I have...

So again, most excellent update, I just thought I would provide some "positive" comments since everyone is bemoaning their bits, I for one thing it's GREAT. But then again, I am known for "ruinin the game" so you take that however you want.

*diskord high fives (DAC) Syzygy

Edited May 19, 2008 by diskord

[bart416]

You could just a logarithmic increase of tax collection if you want to limit growth...

[hizzy]

I don't mind the changes at all... as of now my nations is still more or less on par with yesterday so whatever.

By the way, Admin, now you know how the Orders feel when all the "BAAAAAAAW" threads keep coming up in the OWF.

edit: don't mind the sig hahaha

Edited May 19, 2008 by hizzy

[Thuru]

Maybe an idea to tweak this a little by adding a new (expensive) wonder what gives 2 or 3 envoriment bonus.

I think tweak it all with (new) wonders is better than tweak it with improvements.

[admin]

I don't mind the changes at all... as of now my nations is still more or less on par with yesterday so whatever.

By the way, Admin, now you know how the Orders feel when all the "BAAAAAAAW" threads keep coming up in the OWF.

edit: don't mind the sig hahaha

Apparently according to conspiracy theories I'm an uber secret member of the Orders so technically I should already know what it feels like.... right? I would describe the feeling as holding a sharp knife in my hand and quickly doing several strong facepalms. amirite?

[DarkMistress]

whats your problem? That instead of 'everything' you have to make a decision which improvements to focus on?

Get Borderwalls and your eco will be at almost the same level like before - that you lost pop is WANTED by the admin [as he already confirmed] and EVERYONE has lost it.

Stay at your current setup and you will have military boni (Guerilla Camps, Barracks, Satellites, Missile Defenses) but economic penalties.

Hey, that even sounds logical, the environment of nations is usually not the best during war, and you are at war.

Your nation is *far far far* away from being "crippled".

Wrong - when I'm already sitting on -9 improvements how exactly do you expect me to fix this? I've lost over a third of my income. Good on you that you think that you're changes are great for YOU and a small group at the top. Yeah, let me drop 9 improvements then another 5 to get 5 borderwalls to have a shot in hell at improving my economy. All so I can balance this out? No. I'm not an idiot and I know how this game works so don't talk down to me like you think I am.

I'm angry. I'm entitled to be. If you can't handle the fact that you've made a suggestion that admin has implemented that has infuriated a large portion of people, then don't respond.

[diskord]

Apparently according to conspiracy theories I'm an uber secret member of the Orders so technically I should already know what it feels like.... right? I would describe the feeling as holding a sharp knife in my hand and quickly doing several strong facepalms. amirite?

[sarcasm]

YOUR RUININ THE GAME!

I MEAN DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU CHANGED TECH NS! THERE WAS A MASS EXODUS FROM THE GAME, IT WAS THE WORST CHANGE EVER AND CYBERNATIONS IS DEAD. YOU ARE REPEATING YOUR MISTAKES! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

[/sarcasm]

Edited May 19, 2008 by diskord

[klaudiO]

lets hope that not happend

[President Obama]

Nice job Syzygy Seriously though, have you gotten any hate mail yet? Seriously people, Syzygy is trying to improve the game and has done a ton of good for this game. So don't say that he is 'ruining the game'.

I reserve judgement on this update until all the kinks are figured out.

Edited May 19, 2008 by President Obama

[Syzygy]

Since you seem to be "in-the-know," why is this a problem for admin? After all, they are just digital numbers, why does it matter how large they are? Isn't the point of this game to grow and be "powerful?"

The point is that currently the amount of income and cash hoarded at big nations outgrow the game mechanics itself. There are many nations sitting on billions of cash, doing nothing at all because more infra would hurt them (totally unlucrative) and they can only buy 1 wonder every 30days, some of them even have almost all wonders.

Now you enter a vicious cycle: if you add more wonders/improvements for them to bring up income, they can grow a bit more, but only to have the SAME scenario in some months while they are hoarding EVEN MORE cash then. You see these effects when looking at the war scenario: Nukes are in no way threatening any more, because compared to the size of nations they hardly make significant damage. Sooner or later you can hit big nations by war for MONTHS and they wont be down. The system is freezing and cementing more and more.

To get out of this, there are 3 ways, and the admin will probably go them all step by step.

1. Slow down the growth for EVERYONE, to make destruction have more impact (strengthen the effects of war), but give people OPTIONS to fight these changes. This has been done with the current update.

2. Increase destruction potential on a sliding scale by giving (for example) tech a damage bonus on nukes or even all hightech weaponry. So highlevel nations will deal more damage to each other than lowlevel nations. This basically enables the 'newer' and smaller players to catch up a bit faster to the right now almost untouchable topranks. To be honest, a new player must play around a YEAR pretty good to come evenin declaration range of the top10. And it is discouraging for new players to start a game where they can most likely NEVER play in the upper tier. Damage on a sliding scale makes sure the ranks are more fluid, making it more interesting for new and skilled players. Such changes might come in the future.

3. Adding of new ways to burn ENORMEOUS sums of cash without increasing inflation too much. These could be tech-improvements or research projects which enable access to special operations (spying) or weapon systems (war), or simply increase the efficiency of certain things (impact of land, impact of special resources). Such stuff will be insanely cost intensive, but provide boni you cannot get otherwise, so people will WANT to burn that cash.

I hope that helps a bit to understand where the current system leads if nothing is done: to stagnation and an ever increasing circle of inflation wihtout a way out. The update of today is one step into a new direction.

[King Srqt]

[sarcasm]

YOUR RUININ THE GAME!

I MEAN DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU CHANGED TECH NS! THERE WAS A MASS EXODUS FROM THE GAME, IT WAS THE WORST CHANGE EVER AND CYBERNATIONS IS DEAD. YOU ARE REPEATING YOUR MISTAKES! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

[/sarcasm]

Except that did not really effect anything this does. This is actually effecting nation economies which is in turn screwing up carefuly laid plans which in turn makes the game less enjoyable for people.

[greenansatsu]

Maybe an idea to tweak this a little by adding a new (expensive) wonder what gives 2 or 3 envoriment bonus.

I think tweak it all with (new) wonders is better than tweak it with improvements.

Perhaps a mix of both? A improvement with a low environment bonus say +.5 with a limit of 3, for smaller and medium nations with no negative change. Then a wonder as you suggest with a higher environment bonus for the bigger nations.

[diskord]

2. Increase destruction potential on a sliding scale by giving (for example) tech a damage bonus on nukes or even all hightech weaponry. So highlevel nations will deal more damage to each other than lowlevel nations. This basically enables the 'newer' and smaller players to catch up a bit faster to the right now almost untouchable topranks. To be honest, a new player must play around a YEAR pretty good to come evenin declaration range of the top10. And it is discouraging for new players to start a game where they can most likely NEVER play in the upper tier. Damage on a sliding scale makes sure the ranks are more fluid, making it more interesting for new and skilled players. Such changes might come in the future.

I've been banging that drum for a year+ at least. Maybe I should dig through the suggestion box and bump some of my old suggestions that are a good 12-15 months old

Sliding scale damages in war would be the single greatest change/equalizer in this game. No longer could huge alliances march off to war with billions in cash reserves and keep the young nations permanently below them, it would allow for the smaller nations/alliances to actually cause noticeable and real damages to nations much larger than themselves.

[LJ Scott]

I'm glad more people are turning over to this. It was ridiculous just a few agreeing with it earlier

Still I'd even say the income effect good be slightly more

[klaudiO]

i stil dont understand why citizen are needed to down =(

[Syzygy]

Wrong - when I'm already sitting on -9 improvements how exactly do you expect me to fix this? I've lost over a third of my income. Good on you that you think that you're changes are great for YOU and a small group at the top. Yeah, let me drop 9 improvements then another 5 to get 5 borderwalls to have a shot in hell at improving my economy. All so I can balance this out? No. I'm not an idiot and I know how this game works so don't talk down to me like you think I am.

I'm angry. I'm entitled to be. If you can't handle the fact that you've made a suggestion that admin has implemented that has infuriated a large portion of people, then don't respond.

I can perfectly stand your anger. All I say is that you have probably prepared good for the war you are fighting, so you do not have a problem to pay your bills, do you? And this update has changed *nothing* on the bills.

After you are out of this war and paid your bills, you raze:

- 5 barracks (you dont need them in peacetime,

- 3 guerilla camps (you should not collect with them anyway)

- 5 Satellites

- 5 MDs

- 5 Laborcamps

This alone frees 23 improvement slots. Get 5 Borderwalls (or as many as are appropriate for your nation) and collect tax.

Where again has your nation been "crippled"? The only thing that has changed is the fact that you cannot have war- AND peace-improvements at the same time now, at least not at your current infralevel. To have this, you need to BUY MORE INFRA - and that is EXACTLY WHAT THE ADMIN WANTS. To make you burn cash. To make everyone burn cash, to make destructions more expensive, to slow down overall growth to prevent the game outgrowing its own mechanics.

It should not be so hard to understand, to your nation has done NO more harm than to anyone else (including me). [yes, my income gone down probably a lot more than yours].

[diskord]

Except that did not really effect anything this does. This is actually effecting nation economies which is in turn screwing up carefuly laid plans which in turn makes the game less enjoyable for people.

No, that was the same argument many used against the tech changes, heck I would say the tech NS was even worse because people had spent MONTHS buying tech, and had it all flushed down the drain in a matter or a few clicks. This change, while big, most of it can be alleviated with reshuffling some trades and a few improvement swaps.

If your nation is currently running at some huge negative population now, a few changes (sell down, swap to borderwalls, get more citizens and buy a majority of your improvements back) and everything is mostly the same. You may have lost a week or 2's worth of growth, but not much more than that. The tech change took out months of work for some people... and looking back can we all agree now that it was a positive change that improved the game?

Likewise, I expect everyone to be wailing and gnashing teeth for a few days/week over this, give in, make the changes to their nation, and keep on playing. In a few months we will look back and say "Cybernations gameplay IMPROVED over this update" and that should be the goal of any update. It isn't to improve your nation, it's to improve the overall gameplay. This change does that, so regardless of how it affects your nation, if we can agree that it improves gameplay (and I have yet to see anyone argue that it doesn't, because it doesn't) then regardless of what you personally think of the change with respects to your nation, you have to agree with the change because it is making a better overall game... and a better game = more fun = more players.

So while I understand people wanting to vent, and the frustration over having plans "changed" on you... I applaud admin for improving the game, because for the playerbase as a whole, that is his main responsibility, not to individual nations that got "screwed over."

[klaudiO]

I can perfectly stand your anger. All I say is that you have probably prepared good for the war you are fighting, so you do not have a problem to pay your bills, do you? And this update has changed *nothing* on the bills.

After you are out of this war and paid your bills, you raze:

- 5 barracks (you dont need them in peacetime,

- 3 guerilla camps (you should not collect with them anyway)

- 5 Satellites

- 5 MDs

- 5 Laborcamps

This alone frees 23 improvement slots. Get 5 Borderwalls (or as many as are appropriate for your nation) and collect tax.

Where again has your nation been "crippled"? The only thing that has changed is the fact that you cannot have war- AND peace-improvements at the same time now, at least not at your current infralevel. To have this, you need to BUY MORE INFRA - and that is EXACTLY WHAT THE ADMIN WANTS. To make you burn cash. To make everyone burn cash, to make destructions more expensive, to slow down overall growth to prevent the game outgrowing its own mechanics.

It should not be so hard to understand, to your nation has done NO more harm than to anyone else (including me). [yes, my income gone down probably a lot more than yours].

u_u dam how " easy" are for you guys have that the 5 laborcams 5 mds 5 etc...

one who must wait months to buy just a new one dam ... i agree whit the update but the pop down i didnt like it at all

[Vol Navy]

Seems to me the top of your alliance ( The Grämlins) has heavy benifit from this because of how many of you can get the environmental wonder.

After tinkering with govt type and border walls my net loss is currently going to be 9k citizens and probably a couple million a day in income taxes.

For my nation 4 border walls are the answer. My population increases by 500 with one and then falls slightly up to 4 then falls by nearly 2000 if I get the 5th because 4 maxes out my environment.

Still it's another change in the game that is an overall negative to my nation. This is probably the one that ends my monthly donation.

*edited for clarification

Edited May 19, 2008 by Vol Navy

[diskord]

Seems to me your alliance has heavy benifit from this because of how many of you can get the environmental wonder.

After tinkering with govt type and border walls my net loss is currently going to be 9k citizens and probably a couple million a day in income taxes.

For my nation 4 border walls are the answer. My population increases by 500 with one and then falls slightly up to 4 then falls by nearly 2000 if I get the 4th because 4 maxes out my environment.

Still it's another change in the game that is an overall negative to my nation. This is probably the one that ends my monthly donation.

I never have understood the threat of "you will lose my donation if you don't/do this:".

It's a donation, not a payment. If admin was really concerned about the financial viability of CN he would probably charge for it. You are complaining about changes made to a FREE web game, that you enjoy enough to give money to. Now you will join one of 30,000+ other players that don't pay, somehow I don't think thats going to make or break admin's world... heck, I haven't donated since January, but since you are pulling yours over this change, I will throw admin a donation for the next 6 months to offset the loss of your donation, so now we are at a net of $0 lost for admin and we can get on with playing a game that has been improved by this change.

[o ya baby]

Probably the worst update I've experienced in my time here. Punish people this hard for playing the game right is silly.

[Istus]

The point is that currently the amount of income and cash hoarded at big nations outgrow the game mechanics itself. There are many nations sitting on billions of cash, doing nothing at all because more infra would hurt them (totally unlucrative) and they can only buy 1 wonder every 30days, some of them even have almost all wonders.

Now you enter a vicious cycle: if you add more wonders/improvements for them to bring up income, they can grow a bit more, but only to have the SAME scenario in some months while they are hoarding EVEN MORE cash then. You see these effects when looking at the war scenario: Nukes are in no way threatening any more, because compared to the size of nations they hardly make significant damage. Sooner or later you can hit big nations by war for MONTHS and they wont be down. The system is freezing and cementing more and more.

To get out of this, there are 3 ways, and the admin will probably go them all step by step.

1. Slow down the growth for EVERYONE, to make destruction have more impact (strengthen the effects of war), but give people OPTIONS to fight these changes. This has been done with the current update.

2. Increase destruction potential on a sliding scale by giving (for example) tech a damage bonus on nukes or even all hightech weaponry. So highlevel nations will deal more damage to each other than lowlevel nations. This basically enables the 'newer' and smaller players to catch up a bit faster to the right now almost untouchable topranks. To be honest, a new player must play around a YEAR pretty good to come evenin declaration range of the top10. And it is discouraging for new players to start a game where they can most likely NEVER play in the upper tier. Damage on a sliding scale makes sure the ranks are more fluid, making it more interesting for new and skilled players. Such changes might come in the future.

3. Adding of new ways to burn ENORMEOUS sums of cash without increasing inflation too much. These could be tech-improvements or research projects which enable access to special operations (spying) or weapon systems (war), or simply increase the efficiency of certain things (impact of land, impact of special resources). Such stuff will be insanely cost intensive, but provide boni you cannot get otherwise, so people will WANT to burn that cash.

I hope that helps a bit to understand where the current system leads if nothing is done: to stagnation and an ever increasing circle of inflation wihtout a way out. The update of today is one step into a new direction.

Thank you for your insights.

I do however have a few counter points to offer if, again, only as devil's advocate.

1. If you slow everyone down, the small nations will still not catch the large nations. Even if they are based at a percentage to slow down the growth of large nations, the small nations will encounter those same growth inhibitors as they gain on the large nations. Now, the gap is smaller but the growth rates are only a fraction of what they were.

2. While I agree that some weaponry changes can ensure an even playing field among all ranks, I think again that without pausing the growth of upper tier nations all together, small nations still cannot reach into the upper ranks. I've been playing for well over two years now. I've been in the top 2% of nations, been destroyed by several wars, became nuke capable and then not and am now fighting to become nuke capable again for the betterment of my alliance while sitting at 6.9%. I myself see this effect of not being able to play an 'upper tier' game but I do not think this change will help that rift.

3. Inflation is a part of any real economy. Look at a small, start up business compared to a large corporation. While purchasing office supplies can strain the budget of an entrepreneur, corporations treat it as chump change. I agree that allowing benefits for only those with the most money is one way of burning cash, but it only serves to increase the rift between large and small nations.

In short, I do not think any of these will solve the problem at hand. There is a much larger picture here that needs to be seen if you or admin wish changes like these to benefit the whole of CN. EDIT: At this time, I do not have the answer though I will mull it over and potentially offer any ideas at that time.

Thank you again for your correspondence.

-Dr.

Edited May 19, 2008 by Dr Hrmmm

[DarkMistress]

I can perfectly stand your anger. All I say is that you have probably prepared good for the war you are fighting, so you do not have a problem to pay your bills, do you? And this update has changed *nothing* on the bills.

After you are out of this war and paid your bills, you raze:

- 5 barracks (you dont need them in peacetime,

- 3 guerilla camps (you should not collect with them anyway)

- 5 Satellites

- 5 MDs

- 5 Laborcamps

This alone frees 23 improvement slots. Get 5 Borderwalls (or as many as are appropriate for your nation) and collect tax.

Where again has your nation been "crippled"? The only thing that has changed is the fact that you cannot have war- AND peace-improvements at the same time now, at least not at your current infralevel. To have this, you need to BUY MORE INFRA - and that is EXACTLY WHAT THE ADMIN WANTS. To make you burn cash. To make everyone burn cash, to make destructions more expensive, to slow down overall growth to prevent the game outgrowing its own mechanics.

It should not be so hard to understand, to your nation has done NO more harm than to anyone else (including me). [yes, my income gone down probably a lot more than yours].

At what point did I imply that I didn't understand this change? I understand it very well and know very well what it has done to MY nation. Your nation is much larger and don't even try to tell me how much you've suffered from this change. I know how much cash on hand I have. I know how much money it will take to buy up my infra to a level where these changes aren't crippling. I also know that this game isn't JUST ABOUT NUMBERS. You have made a war simulator game which requires you to be ready at some point for war to be a nation building game. You've effectively said 'F U' to the being ready aspect for nations who want to be. And your suggested changes of which improvements to destroy are ones that, as a player of over a year, ARE OBVIOUS. However, they would also mean that I couldn't be ready for a war again until I've rebuilt an enormous amount and grown past my pre-war stage to get into any shape whatsoever to be useful.

These changes ARE NOT necessary. Yes, they slow down growth. But guess who they don't hurt - nations that don't go to war and LOSE infra.

I'm done griping. Clearly complaints will fall on deaf ears.

[Syzygy]

u_u dam how " easy" are for you guys have that the 5 laborcams 5 mds 5 etc...

shall I raze them just to make you happy? That I maintain them is more boredom since nations of my size have dozens of unused improvement slots. It is in no way benefitial at all because I pay upkeep for improvements I absolutely do not need during peacetime.

On the other hand that I CAN build them is a reward for the probably 1 BILLION more cash I have spent for infra than DM. Which is what the admin wants, nations burning their cash instead of hoarding it by doing nothing and sitting around the levels of 4999, 5999, 7999 and so on. You would be surprised how many nations actually COULD get up to 13k infra to get he National Environment Office, but they refuse to do so because getting that much infra is not really worth it from the efficiency view AND is quite dangerous regarding bill lock. Now, after the update they have a REASON to do so, or they decide ACTIVELY against it. Its up to them and everyone has to deal with the consequences.