Preplanning Discussion

[Gloval]

The issue I see with allowing a peace mode, is that space is at a premium. In CN, there is unlimited space, everyone could make their capital Moscow if they wanted. But here, we have a limited map, which means that allowing a peace mode would lock down chunks of the map with no way to change it.

[Isaac MatthewII]

Peace mode would not mean you can't go to war with them and take their land. Basically put:

Peace mode: all wars are preplanned.
War mode: fair game attack or be attacked whenever you want.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII

[Kankou]

Jump starting this thread.

I invite the anti-preplanning people to bring forth a suggestion to reform preplanning. I would especially appreciate the wisdom of the GM team which had been the one to first install preplanning, to look at the reasons why they made the system and what they hoped for it to achieve.

[Centurius]

As the person who first suggested preplanning to HK and later one watched its implementation I think I can speak with significant knowledge on the matter.

Simply said, preplanning was not made to shield players. It was not made to get fixed results, heck it wasn't even made to get fixed sides. Preplanning was made in the wake of a few chaotic wars(Korea and later Cochin) where the OOC ended up in so many places it was simply too much. Its goal was to take most of the OOC whining and put it in a controlled environment. Simply said preplanning was never protection, it was an obligation to talk.

[Kankou]

Then why were there such a thing as war waivers? Why was it that in the first example of preplanning that comes to mind, you were among the people who was basically setting up the system of limiting the participants to the Germanic War? I'm not quite getting the system as you portray it with how you actually participated in it.

[Triyun]

So long as people try to impose normative rules onto preplanning, preplanning can never work. The principle reform that could be achieved cannot be done by the whole community but has to be individual. That is you accept that other people have their own subjective viewpoint and will act as they choose to act. You should bring up specific concerns you may have with their actions but you should not start trying to avoid war or get emo about whether or not the war is justified. This is an argument you can't possibly win. I would also say that the idea of bringing in 3rd parties to planning is an antithetical to preplanning and actually counter productive. When Cochin and Vektor wouldn't talk to each other and I had to act as a middle man, there was no communications, today it seems that we have people being invited or inviting themselves into preplanning discussions and trying to dominate the conversation and acting as an intermediary between the two parties. This destroys the intended thing in preplanning which is communication directly between the two players. That needs to stop, if you want to get involved put some skin in the game IC. Rather than attempt new rules, I think that everyone has to wake up and recognize wars part of CN, you play you can get into a war. Get over that, and see if you can come up with ideas on how you can protect yourself and try and come to an arrangement that you AND the other party likes.


@ Kankou: The reason the german war was limited in participation was because thats that both Vektor and I wanted. I didn't want to have others vulture him after the damage I inflicted. However, that was no deterrent from someone declaring war on Germany separately, of course I'd expect Cent would jump whomever did that.

[Kevin Kingswell]

Kill pre-planning or don't I no longer care either way, in the end I think the best solution would be to force people to do neither. If someone wants to carry out pre-planning then they can and if someone does not then they don't have to. This way no one is forced to do or not to do one thing or the other it all comes down to personal choice of the players.

[Kankou]

Yes, but then players are forced to be in wars even when they're not at fault. How is that balanced?

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348598883' post='3034005']
Yes, but then players are forced to be in wars even when they're not at fault. How is that balanced?
[/quote]

You misunderstand Kankou regardless of pre planning people are forced to be in wars all I am saying is that it is up to each personal player whether or not they pre plan.

[Lynneth]

[quote name='Kevin Kingswell' timestamp='1348599200' post='3034006']
You misunderstand Kankou regardless of pre planning people are forced to be in wars all I am saying is that it is up to each personal player whether or not they pre plan.
[/quote]
Which in 99% of cases will result in no preplanning at all despite one side wanting to preplan.
Good solution. Really good.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1348601487' post='3034010']
Which in 99% of cases will result in no preplanning at all despite one side wanting to preplan.
Good solution. Really good.
[/quote]
Sums up my thoughts on your proposal, Kevin.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348598883' post='3034005']
Yes, but then players are forced to be in wars even when they're [b]not at fault.[/b] How is that balanced?
[/quote]

This is highly subjective because the reasons stated IC may or not be fabricated. If it is the former, it is an IC issue. If it is the latter, the same thing. It's part of the diplomacy of the game.

[Kankou]

That is mere sophism, given that by that indication, all people have to do is RP some stupid act of terror and frame it upon someone without needing a single spy roll. Isn't that exactly what happened in the past, and part of why preplanning was established despite the revisionism that is being attempted?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348602552' post='3034017']
That is mere sophism, given that by that indication, all people have to do is RP some stupid act of terror and frame it upon someone without needing a single spy roll. Isn't that exactly what happened in the past, and part of why preplanning was established despite the revisionism that is being attempted?
[/quote]

If someone sets off a bomb in their own nation and decides to sell it as another nation attacking, it's all IC propaganda. People can make fake evidence; that has never been an issue. Spy rolls are used by people, if they ask for and receive the evidence, to determine if it is fake.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Voodoo Nova

[Kankou]

It had been an issue, and part of why preplanning had been established is to prevent such a degenerate form of RPing which is contrary to standards that one would need to uphold. It was part of the reason why preplanning had been established, to prevent such substandard RPs from taking place, by forcing the aggressive party to work for the war rather than just twist the basic fabric of RPing itself.

[Isaac MatthewII]

9 times out of 10, they are fabricated.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Lynneth' timestamp='1348601487' post='3034010']
Which in 99% of cases will result in no preplanning at all despite one side wanting to preplan.
Good solution. Really good.
[/quote]


[quote name='Evangeline Anovilis' timestamp='1348601694' post='3034012']
Sums up my thoughts on your proposal, Kevin.
[/quote]

I give the same answer to you both. Tough luck. Clearly you both seem to think it is okay to force one player to pre plan even if they don't want to if the other one does. To me that has the same problem as my suggestion. Not matter how much anyone sits and discusses about pre planning no one solution can be found. Thus why we should leave it to personal player choice as using or not using pre planning has all of there own advantages and disadvantages.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348598883' post='3034005']
Yes, but then players are forced to be in wars even when they're not at fault. How is that balanced?
[/quote]

CN RP is not balanced by anything other than player will. Also fault is subjective. You may think your behavior does not warrant an attack, but thats not solely your call. Once you acknowledge your opinion is not fact, you'll be much better off. If someone is being an !@#$%^& to enough people they should be destroyed ICly. If the rest of CN RP can't summon the political will to do so they should have to reap the consequences.

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348603190' post='3034026']
It had been an issue, and part of why preplanning had been established is to prevent such a degenerate form of RPing which is contrary to standards that one would need to uphold. It was part of the reason why preplanning had been established, to prevent such substandard RPs from taking place, by forcing the aggressive party to work for the war rather than just twist the basic fabric of RPing itself.
[/quote]

Can you actually cite one person who was involved in establishing preplanning who says what you just said. Because being involved in it, I certainly do not remember that conversation. So I'm not sure how you can say part of the reason why it was established was X when there really isn't anyone involved in establishing it whose EVER cited that as a reason. Preplanning had nothing to do with judging the validity of CBs, it had solely to do with two people needing to talk to each other. Thats it. And please really, you've asserted a fact that this is one of the reasons why it was established. Please actually give us a quote from Cent, Shammy, HK, or myself saying that.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348613029' post='3034072']
CN RP is not balanced by anything other than player will. Also fault is subjective. You may think your behavior does not warrant an attack, but thats not solely your call. Once you acknowledge your opinion is not fact, you'll be much better off. If someone is being an !@#$%^& to enough people they should be destroyed ICly. If the rest of CN RP can't summon the political will to do so they should have to reap the consequences.
[/quote]
Just that being an annoyance OOCly is a reason to roll us ICly for some here, which should absolutely not warrant an attack. I honestly give a damn about preplanning, it should be reformed into something sensible, but the arguments against the IC/OOC divide are the greatest BS I ever heard. If people are !@#$%^&s to people OOCly, this may piss people off, I can understand if one doesn't want to deal with an !@#$%^& any longer, but it has no place in role-play. Not to the point that it is the sole reason we roll people here. Or the reverse. And spare us the talk that if we'd accept our fate we'd be better off. If we accept what? I know that my opinions are mine, that every person that reads my opinion will not just accept them as facts, but will read and think and then decide themselves whether or not they share or discard it. I think it is something else though what you want us to accept here and THAT I won't accept. My basic dignity forbids it.

[Triyun]

Eva, you're flat out wrong. Look if you have people being eurocentric racists like KC's pope that you supported warning about the barbaric mongol hordes, or you have PD who puts Tianxia on its rogue states list, and keeping running off his mouth. You have Kankou claiming to be 'inspired by Jia' to go ethnically cleanse her island when Chemical weapons. You have Mara pissing on half the world and strutting. You have Isaac trying to play Ronald Reagan's second coming in Carolina. These are one thing and one thing only: Targets. If you don't like the reasoning and see these things as unfair, thats not really at all your call is. Everything can be summed up in common sense: you don't want to get hit, don't be a !@#$%*.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348615555' post='3034080']
Eva, you're flat out wrong. Look if you have people being eurocentric racists like KC's pope that you supported warning about the barbaric mongol hordes, or you have PD who puts Tianxia on its rogue states list, and keeping running off his mouth. You have Kankou claiming to be 'inspired by Jia' to go ethnically cleanse her island when Chemical weapons. You have Mara pissing on half the world and strutting. You have Isaac trying to play Ronald Reagan's second coming in Carolina. These are one thing and one thing only: Targets. If you don't like the reasoning and see these things as unfair, thats not really at all your call is. Everything can be summed up in common sense: you don't want to get hit, don't be a !@#$%*.
[/quote]
Oh, I see. I guess we should just overlook things like me never openly supporting the pope, but the pope supporting me, which is why KC got attacked after me, not before me. (Also, just looked it up, Celestine VIs views on your Horde were known only to a closed conclave, not to you, at best (Was written in an OOC section)) Or that the Kankous government (which was to be trialed) and the ethnic cleansing faction were two different entities ICly. Not to mention that just after Germany got driven out of Asia by Tianxia, all is fine when they invade Grand Papua, with the intention of full annexation? Mind you, at that time they were not exterminating chinese or any other ethnic group in their country, they weren't even violently exterminating political groups there. And Texas' diplomatic classifications were classified. In short, while a good part here has some IC basis, most of it is OOC, uses knowledge that you should not be in possession of. It reminds me of when Vektor tried to spy my Ministries in Croatia, to get proof that a company in Grand Papua had ordered a ship in Grand Papua.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348615555' post='3034080']
Everything can be summed up in common sense: you don't want to get hit, don't be a !@#$%*.
[/quote]
Indeed. What however you don't say, but what is obvious by now to me. I don't want to get hit, I should not be an annoyance OOCly. Because frankly, if we are, someone will just make a fake CB and declare on us. Which is just sickening. But I repeat myself here.

[Triyun]

Last I checked the Roman Catholic Church does not make decisions in conclave that are solely the citizens of the Vatican. Most of those Cardinals actually fall into Athenian Jurisdiction. And Athens and Tianxia spy on everyone and tell the other about it. So tough !@#$. Also we did kill both of you. You were just the easiest to kill first.

As for Germany, name one time a Tianxia unit attacked it before the extremists. Name one. You cannot because it didn't happen. What did happen was basing support. Here the strategic calculus was simple. Both were enemies but Germany was far away, Papua was not. The idea is pretty simplistic here, a two year old good grasp this strategy. If Germany lost it would weaken itself and Papua, if Germany won Germany would be unable to hold Papua against the Horde and both sides would've exhausted tremendous resources. Papua on the other hand if it won would likely have a strong position for defending itself. I chose the most advantageous strategies For the Horde.

Texas put out a public statement about the Canal, and thats when Texas got hit.

Don't try and lecture me about facts to justify your perpetual victimhood, now get off my god damn lawn.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348615555' post='3034080']You have Isaac trying to play Ronald Reagan's second coming in Carolina[/quote]
Is that really a threat?

[PresidentDavid]

[quote]Texas put out a public statement about the Canal, and thats when Texas got hit. [/quote]

Really? You told me that you attacked me because I was pro-capitalist/conservative or "oppressive" and a threat to Mexico... Funny how reasoning for things changes overtime.
I still think you just got OOCly ***** when Ben and his son had a conversation about the idiocy of Tianxian foreign policy...

But at least your lie is pretty good - I'll give you that.

[Triyun]

As much as Saddam was in 2003 or Ho Chi Min in 1963 you going to have a GM come on and say I shouldn't be able to RP how I want, just flat out say that. Otherwise again get off my lawn god damn hippies.