Preplanning Discussion

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1348618537' post='3034086']
Don't try and lecture me about facts to justify your perpetual victimhood, now get off my god damn lawn.
[/quote]
Your [b]opinion[/b]. Maybe you should accept that while you may RP a god-emperor, a ruler with the mandate of heaven or whatever else you can think of, you yourself are a mere human, not infallible, entitled to your opinion, just like everybody else.

I think by now we discussed it often enough. Deny it if you want, but well...

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111796&view=findpost&p=2999459
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111287&view=findpost&p=2978176
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113193&view=findpost&p=3032768

Just examples, to recall the last few times the topic came up. But I guess I'm poking superpowers with a stick again, right?

[Kankou]

Get off our lawn then.

As for the example: Po Ta To was brought up as a example of what should not happen in a preplanning system. Heck, it was brought up as something that should not happen in any system. The fact is a portion of the anti-preplanning plan is advocating the return of such a substandard style of RPing, leading to people supporting preplanning.

Frankly I don't give a damn about preplanning in itself, but as long as it does prevent abuses where people can just be abusive IC based on OOC feelings and thus move people to act IC (and forming a casus belli, which is pretty much half of what your examples amount to) or just cook up a reason for war without any substantial effort, I will support it. As long as we have people discussing about attacking people for being an OOC annoyance or trying to run out of CNRP, I will support any measures to prevent such blatant abuse of the standards of decent RPing.

That is my ultimate position: A CNRP where one doesn't have to necessarily feel under threat for sitting on land someone else wants because someone can basically use OOC and substandard IC means to make that person a "threat" and thus get a casus belli, or having to deal with hypocrisy of having every remote action be considered a threat by the greatest sophism I've seen in any place short of the 2012 RNC.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348621183' post='3034102']
That is my ultimate position: A CNRP where one doesn't have to necessarily feel under threat for sitting on land someone else wants because someone can basically use OOC and substandard IC means to make that person a "threat" and thus get a casus belli, or having to deal with hypocrisy of having every remote action be considered a threat by the greatest sophism I've seen in any place short of the 2012 RNC.
[/quote]
A CNRP, where one does not have to feel under threat, just because their OOC ideals differ from that of others in the community, where people do not have to fear OOC disputes becoming IC wars, where IC reactions are as much based on IC as possible. If people honestly want my land for RP, they can talk to me to figure something out. If they want to just mess with me, because they think I'm an eurocentric, backstabbing, reactionary @§$%& OOCly, then I kindly ask them to leave me alone ICly and sort it out where it belongs. In the OOC.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348621183' post='3034102']
That is my ultimate position: A CNRP where one doesn't have to necessarily feel under threat for sitting on land someone else wants because someone can basically use OOC and substandard IC means to make that person a "threat" and thus get a casus belli, or having to deal with hypocrisy of having every remote action be considered a threat by the greatest sophism I've seen in any place short of the 2012 RNC.
[/quote]

So at the very end of the day, the reason for war cannot be 'the desire for conquest'. If that is what I'm hearing correctly then your ultimate goal Kankou would be the separation of CNRP into 'Peace' and 'War'?

I also think that you guys are forgetting, technically all these 'OOC' wars are happening in an IC fashion. People can admit that they're doing it for OOC reasons all they want, but what is important to realize that your characters and nations in the IC world are being effected. Po Ta To did happen in CNRP canon. I think there is an argument that everything in CNRP has happened if it is written down and people even bring up wiped events in canon history. The fact of the matter is that you are never going to completely remove OOC from the game, it is impossible. People aren't going to get along with everyone either. However, a portion of you have completely stopped trying to get along.

But unless CNRP is physically separated and either the map is dissolved or two maps are made, wars should not be discounted due to perceived OOC motivation, because they are happening as the text is written down. I guess I just find it funny how personal you guys take everything.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Kankou]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1348623911' post='3034113']
So at the very end of the day, the reason for war cannot be 'the desire for conquest'. If that is what I'm hearing correctly then your ultimate goal Kankou would be the separation of CNRP into 'Peace' and 'War'?[/quote]
No, it's separate of OOC and IC (and the purging of hypocritical sophism when talking about that thin line), and the necessity of effort when starting wars.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348624125' post='3034115']
No, it's separate of OOC and IC (and the purging of hypocritical sophism when talking about that thin line), and the necessity of effort when starting wars.
[/quote]

And how would you separate OOC and IC prior to the beginning of a conflict and purge hypocritical sophism?

[Kankou]

I believe I have said that already in this thread.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348624706' post='3034121']
I believe I have said that already in this thread.
[/quote]

Could you repost it then, I'd be very appreciative.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1348624498' post='3034120']
And how would you separate OOC and IC prior to the beginning of a conflict and purge hypocritical sophism?
[/quote]
How about people start to keep more OOC actually OOC and don't drag it into the realms of IC? If we'd just judge nations according to what they actually do, and what we ICly actually know of them, we'd be stuck with far less trouble here.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Evangeline Anovilis' timestamp='1348624886' post='3034124']
How about people start to keep more OOC actually OOC and don't drag it into the realms of IC? If we'd just judge nations according to what they actually do, and what we ICly actually know of them, we'd be stuck with far less trouble here.
[/quote]

Can you link me to a post where there is an actual OOC declaration of war? Or a post with an OOC judge of a nation?

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1348625013' post='3034125']
Can you link me to a post where there is an actual OOC declaration of war? Or a post with an OOC judge of a nation?
[/quote]From my perspective I don't think the problem is so simple to point out, hence why it is so frustrating to all concerned parties. Just my two cents.

[Kankou]

The entire wars against Isaac during his time as the Carolinas. Only Justits's attempt has any logical or IC basis to it.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348625340' post='3034130']
The entire wars against Isaac during his time as the Carolinas. Only Justits's attempt has any logical or IC basis to it.
[/quote]

Did the other combatants against Issac say in their posts, this is an OOC declaration of war or did they do it ICly?

[quote]
From my perspective I don't think the problem is so simple to point out, hence why it is so frustrating to all concerned parties. Just my two cents.
[/quote]

It's a matter of perception, Subtle, it depends how personal you take the game.

[Subtleknifewielder]

I don't have much of a stake in it either way, but I still dislike OOC motivations for IC actions, even though I know I have been guilty of such myself.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Sarah Tintagyl' timestamp='1348625467' post='3034132']Did the other combatants against Issac say in their posts, this is an OOC declaration of war or did they do it ICly?[/quote]
I would believe all the threats and badmouthing of Isaac, plus public planning of wars which have been carried out because Isaac was an OOC annoyance, are enough given that you have almost always been around.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1348625572' post='3034133']
I don't have much of a stake in it either way, but I still dislike OOC motivations for IC actions, even though I know I have been guilty of such myself.
[/quote]

But you can't judge someone's motivations, you can only judge your own and if someone does do something that is obviously motivated for something OOC then it has become the job of the community to challenge that. The issue I'm seeing is that these debates are not involving present problems, but desire to revisit wars where people have perceived they've been wronged. I wish I could apologize for every wrong that has ever been committed in the history of CNRP, but quite honestly, it becomes a point where, how personal do you really want to make this game? To me, I think that takes the enjoyment out of it and that most of these OOC problems we're having aren't with Pre-planning, but with people disliking each other.

I think its a shame that the greater community has to be privy to these arguments that have nothing to do with policy at all.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348625743' post='3034134']
I would believe all the threats and badmouthing of Isaac, plus public planning of wars which have been carried out because Isaac was an OOC annoyance, are enough given that you have almost always been around.
[/quote]

Then it would be your job as a community member to see those wars stopped and get a poll together to invalidate such a war because you perceive them to be unfair. Then you can let the community decide.

[Kankou]

That can be part of the reforms.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1348626484' post='3034142']
That can be part of the reforms.
[/quote]

I wish the democratic process luck.