Announcement from Pandora's Box

[Tick1]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334606913' post='2954403']
The stories don't contradict each other. If I'm doing tech deals with someone and they get attacked, [b]in order to deal with the attacks I would send them war aid to fight off their attackers so they can continue with the tech deals after.[/b]
[/quote]


[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334607507' post='2954407']
I've consistently done tech deals while around 1k infra, while at war with alliances ranging from ODN, GOONS, Non Grata and others. Never fell short on a tech deal. I believe people should be able to continue tech dealing if they are at war and it is possible to not fall short.
[/quote]

Then why would the Mongols nation have needed to send aid to fight a war if it isn't hindering his tech deals at all?

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334607611' post='2954408']
Then why would the Mongols nation have needed to send aid to fight a war if it isn't hindering his tech deals at all?
[/quote]
If the nation is caught off guard, there goes the money they had for using to buy tech. Another tech deal or war aid could both serve the same purpose of getting the nation back on their feet, so they can fight back and continue buying tech to complete the deals they lost the money for.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334606719' post='2954402']
I have not seen any proof that the Mongols nation had done any tech deals with the nation.
[/quote]

Mongols was tech dealing with the nation. He then got raided by GOONS (while also tech dealing with FOK+NG), during which the tech deal with the Mongols nation expired, so the Mongol sent 3 million to restart the deal, without realizing the nation was at war. The seller in question then messaged the mongol guy back informing him of the war, and asking for aid. The mongol then sent the nation 3mill+2k soldiers, with the reason "War Aid" in exchange for 100tech. GOONS asked for 18million reps*. Mongols refused. War ensued.

GOONS can confirm this, AFAIK no GOON has disputed this.


* = I believe they thought it was multiple instances of aid, but it was the same guy (3mill canceled aid + the second deal of 3mill+2k soldiers).

[Tick1]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334607761' post='2954411']
If the nation is caught off guard, there goes the money they had for using to buy tech. Another tech deal or war aid could both serve the same purpose of getting the nation back on their feet, so they can fight back and continue buying tech to complete the deals they lost the money for.
[/quote]

So you are telling me an alliance such as GOONS that is losing to micro alliances such as Kaskus and Mongols could have caught this small nation off guard? I'll also repeat myself, at 2k nation strength. Not infrastructure, but nation strength. The fact that these are tech raids and not actual wars which generally means only ground attacks should not catch anyone off-guard.

Not to mention the fact that if you know how to do tech deals and aren't affiliated with an alliance you generally prepare to be raided.

[quote]1) Join an AA which is outside our valid targets. If they do this, the AA they joined needs to come to us to mention this. The war will be allowed to expire and everyone goes their separate ways. No reps, of course. Peace can be achieved sooner if the alliance accepting the target asks nicely.

2) Secure a protectorate. Again, things go smoother if the protector at least comes to IRC to let us know. Wars will be allowed to expire, or in many cases if things are businesslike and polite, peace immediately.

3) The Mercy Board, to earn future raid immunity without having to join an AA or get a protectorate.

4) If an outside body (A government member from a valid alliance) informs GOONS about protection that cannot be sited in any publicly available information, GOONS will act on this new information and peace out with the requested group. Assuming that the outside body is acting in good faith. No reparations will be provided if no public documents can be found.[/quote]

If you go to GOONS forums you'll even find out that they inform you on how to end a raid. So instead of sending aid to the nation why not send them a link to the GOONS forums? Seems like a more logical solution that gets your tech dealer out of harms way permanently rather than temporarily.

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1334608068' post='2954413']
Mongols was tech dealing with the nation. He then got raided by GOONS (while also tech dealing with FOK+NG), during which the tech deal with the Mongols nation expired, so the Mongol sent 3 million to restart the deal, without realizing the nation was at war. The seller in question then messaged the mongol guy back informing him of the war, and asking for aid. The mongol then sent the nation 3mill+2k soldiers, with the reason "War Aid" in exchange for 100tech. GOONS asked for 18million reps*. Mongols refused. War ensued.

GOONS can confirm this, AFAIK no GOON has disputed this.


* = I believe they thought it was multiple instances of aid, but it was the same guy (3mill canceled aid + the second deal of 3mill+2k soldiers).
[/quote]

How do you talk again if you are currently a prisoner of war? Really.......

Edited April 16, 2012 by Tick1

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1334596601' post='2954313']
Sure, do that all you want, but their stubbornness is costing them a lot more than it's costing us.
[/quote]

That clearly cannot be true in any sense. Wartime expences are always higher for the larger and better equipped force, and good resistance fighters can get by on a shoestring, costing far more to counter than they spend. Believe me, I know, I have been on both sides of the equation repeatedly. And I know Kaskus are [i]at least[/i] competent at resistance tactics. My credibility just wont stretch far enough to believe you arent spending several times what they are, daily. And that's just dongs. We havent even considered self respect or reputation.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334608255' post='2954416']
How do you talk again if you are currently a prisoner of war? Really.......
[/quote]

The same way you do it sitting on the sidelines...

[quote]So you are telling me an alliance such as GOONS that is losing to micro alliances such as Kaskus and Mongols could have caught this small nation off guard? I'll also repeat myself, at 2k nation strength. Not infrastructure, but nation strength. The fact that these are tech raids and not actual wars which generally means only ground attacks should not catch anyone off-guard.
[/quote]

3v1 wars are much more damaging at the 2k nation strength level. And the raided nation was declared on by 3 coordinating GOONS.

And being 2k, the raiders could only have been about 4k each, how can you defend 18mill reps at that stage? 6mill/nation is much more than a 4k nation would ever lose even being ZI+ZT'd.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Tick1]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1334609236' post='2954423']
The same way you do it sitting on the sidelines...

Please stop trying, even GOONS won't support your ludicrous claims.
[/quote]

My bad all the slots got taken by VE and NG.....

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1334609236' post='2954423']
3v1 wars are much more damaging at the 2k nation strength level. And the raided nation was declared on by 3 coordinating GOONS.

And being 2k, the raiders could only have been about 4k each, how can you defend 18mill reps at that stage? 6mill/nation is much more than a 4k nation would ever lose even being ZI+ZT'd.
[/quote]

Now I know why you are a prisoner of war. Clearly you don't know how to play a defensive war. Considering you only need have half of the money required to finish a tech deal and wars last only seven days. Not to mention the numerous methods in which he could have gotten out of those wars before the actual expiration date of them.

Are you that bad that you lost 18 million in reps from ground attacks alone?
Not to mention a 4k nation cannot attack a 2k nation

Edited April 16, 2012 by Tick1

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334609344' post='2954426']
My bad all the slots got taken by VE and NG.....[/quote]

Theres still slots and you could have entered before they declared.

[quote]Now I know why you are a prisoner of war. Clearly you don't know how to play a defensive war. Considering you only need have half of the money required to finish a tech deal and wars last only seven days. Not to mention the numerous methods in which he could have gotten out of those wars before the actual expiration date of them.[/quote]

...you can't be serious. The person tech dealing with hit by 3 raiders. They wanted 18 million in reps to the raiders for the [b]damages they incurred by a 2k nation[/b] and his use of 3million given to him (most of which was probably stolen by GAs).

That is why Mongols refused the 18 million. It's much too high of a number for this particular instance.

[quote]
Are you that bad that you lost 18 million in reps from ground attacks alone?
Not to mention a 4k nation cannot attack a 2k nation
[/quote]

Yes, so they would be less than 4k, which reinforces my point.

[Tick1]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1334612445' post='2954454']
Theres still slots and you could have entered before they declared.



...you can't be serious. The person tech dealing with hit by 3 raiders. They wanted 18 million in reps to the raiders for the [b]damages they incurred by a 2k nation[/b] and his use of 3million given to him (most of which was probably stolen by GAs).

That is why Mongols refused the 18 million. It's much too high of a number for this particular instance.



Yes, so they would be less than 4k, which reinforces my point.
[/quote]

You are missing my point, there is no reason for the Mongols nation to send aid in the first place.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334612846' post='2954457']
You are missing my point, there is no reason for the Mongols nation to send aid in the first place.
[/quote]
Helping a business associate who just got robbed so he's likely to fall short on his deals without anymore money flow is plenty of reason. Mongols are being attacked for helping out an associate who needed the money to keep his tech deals uninterrupted, nothing they did was wrong in anyway. GOONS were attacking people, Mongols were just doing what anyone who is good to those they know would do and Kaskus were defending their allies as any alliance worth signing a MDoAP with would do. That GOONS claim themselves the victims deserving of reps and calling in all of PB to help them extract it is ridiculous. GOONS have been at fault from beginning to the end of this, that GOONS play the victim after those who don't help inflate their egos on their mercy board after they're the aggressors to start the mess is nothing new.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Methrage

[Swatch0]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334612846' post='2954457']
You are missing my point, there is no reason for the Mongols nation to send aid in the first place.
[/quote]

They were showing Good faith, whats so bad about that? Not like you GOON(s) even know what that is

[Tick1]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334613624' post='2954460']
Helping a business associate who just got robbed so he's likely to fall short on his deals without anymore money flow is plenty of reason. Mongols are being attacked for helping out an associate who needed the money to keep his tech deals uninterrupted, nothing they did was wrong in anyway. GOONS were attacking people, Mongols were just doing what anyone who is good to those they know would do and Kaskus were defending their allies as any alliance worth signing a MDoAP with would do. That GOONS claim themselves the victims deserving of reps and calling in all of PB to help them extract it is ridiculous. GOONS have been at fault from beginning to the end of this, that GOONS play the victim after those who don't help inflate their egos on their mercy board after they're the aggressors to start the mess is nothing new.
[/quote]

Why give a man a fish when you can feed him for a lifetime?

Also side note I don't know why you are bringing Kaskus into this argument, seeing as I have no issue with them declaring war on someone at war with their ally.
I also don't know the point in debating actions taken after the Mongols aid when clearly the only thing I'm debating is that the Mongols nation shouldn't have aided the tech dealer with money and instead taught him how to avoid situations in the future. Seems kind of dumb to continue tech dealing with someone that continues to get raided and does nothing about it.

The only thing I want to hear you say is that there was a better alternative to helping his tech dealer than sending him aid to continue fighting the GOONS nations.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Tick1

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334615268' post='2954476']
Why give a man a fish when you can feed him for a lifetime?[/quote] Why raid and war when you can make better growth as a neutral?

[quote]The only thing I want to hear you say is that there was a better alternative to helping his tech dealer than sending him aid to continue fighting the GOONS nations.[/quote]
People aren't free to defend themselves and their interests?

Yeah, and she was literally asking for it with that dress she was wearing, too. Right, guys?

[quote]Seems kind of dumb to continue tech dealing with someone that continues to get raided and does nothing about it.[/quote]

Wasn't this nation also tech dealing with both Fok and NG?

[quote]
Also side note I don't know why you are bringing Kaskus into this argument, seeing as I have no issue with them declaring war on someone at war with their ally.
I also don't know the point in debating actions taken after the Mongols aid when clearly the only thing I'm debating is that the Mongols nation shouldn't have aided the tech dealer with money and instead taught him how to avoid situations in the future.
[/quote]

That is patently ridiculous. Why shouldn't the Mongols have aided their tech dealer? I've gotta hear this.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Tick1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334616421' post='2954485']
Why raid and war when you can make better growth as a neutral?
[/quote]

At small nation strengths raiding can be beneficial.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334616421' post='2954485']
People aren't free to defend themselves and their interests?
[/quote]

Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334616421' post='2954485']
Yeah, and she was literally asking for it with that dress she was wearing, too. Right, guys?
[/quote]

I don't know what this has to do with the debate at hand seeing as I'm not debating about moral ethics of raiding.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334616421' post='2954485']
Wasn't this nation also tech dealing with both Fok and NG?
[/quote]

Yes and you notice how the nation that got raided is no longer listed under 'none'

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334616421' post='2954485']
That is patently ridiculous. Why shouldn't the Mongols have aided their tech dealer? I've gotta hear this.
[/quote]

Did you just miss the sentence or couple of statements above? There are better methods the Mongols nation could have used to achieve his same goal.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Tick1

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334537526' post='2953979']
There's three words on the Viridian seal--loyalty, honor, victory--and this war hasn't got anything to do with any of them.
[/quote]

I understand that from where you're standing you don't see honor in this war, and there clearly has [i]yet[/i] to be a victory, but [i]how the hell[/i] can you claim Viridia has no loyalty for listening to GOONS request for assistance?

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1334538076' post='2953982']
MK has over 40 nations in Kaskus' range, and was already involved in the war: Where. are. they?
[/quote]

I don't think anyone needs to explain the tactics of this conflict to the armchair war generals here on the OWF, sorry. We've involved ourselves exactly as GOONS has requested us to thus far, and if they wish for anything else they know we'll be there however they request it.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334617032' post='2954491']
At small nation strengths raiding can be beneficial.[/quote]

Before becoming of legal age, stealing and murdering people around them is beneficial.

[quote]
Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains[/quote]

If you understand that, than you understand the need of others to unite against being made subservient by those who think themselves masters of other men.


[quote]I don't know what this has to do with the debate at hand seeing as I'm not debating about moral ethics of raiding.[/quote] That's good, but this debate is skating the very edge of it.

[quote]
Yes and you notice how the nation that got raided is no longer listed under 'none'[/quote]
And what does that have to do with anything?

[quote]Did you just miss the sentence or couple of statements above? There are better methods the Mongols nation could have used to achieve his same goal.
[/quote]

Such as? If you mean incorporating this victim nation into some other scheme of protection such as an alliance, then I have to argue that there should be no reason to have to do that. Though the world may be rife with petty thieves and murderous barbarians, a nation shouldn't have to join the giant alliance driven political machine if they don't wish to. Related, they should be free to accept aid from benefactors, and those said benefactors should be free of repercussions, for the aiding of the defense from theft and wonton murder by parties who have no legitimacy conducting war against this free nation to begin with should be applauded. [i]And if groups like GOONS and their cabal of collective rapists so feel the need to expend their energy in entrenching a "policy" of alliance guaranteed highway robbery, than others should be equally free to create a scenario of mutually assured destruction as a deterrent![/i]

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Tick1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334618016' post='2954502']
Before becoming of legal age, stealing and murdering people around them is beneficial.
[/quote]

Personally if it's beneficial do it.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334618016' post='2954502']
If you understand that, than you understand the need of others to unite against being made subservient by those who think themselves masters of other men.
[/quote]
No, I personally don't understand the need to unite against people who believe themselves to be masters of other men. Doing so would not benefit me.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334618016' post='2954502']
That's good, but this debate is skating the very edge of it.
[/quote]

It really isn't

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334618016' post='2954502']
And what does that have to do with anything?
[/quote]

It means the nation has learned and wont be getting raided anymore. Meaning had the Mongols nation instead just offered him asylum from GOONS this whole war could have been avoided.

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334618016' post='2954502']
Such as? If you mean incorporating this victim nation into some other scheme of protection such as an alliance, then I have to argue that there should be no reason to have to do that. Though the world may be rife with petty thieves and murderous barbarians, a nation shouldn't have to join the giant alliance driven political machine if they don't wish to. Related, they should be free to accept aid from benefactors, and those said benefactors should be free of repercussions, for the aiding of the defense from theft and wonton murder by parties who have no legitimacy conducting war against this free nation to begin with should be applauded. [i]And if groups like GOONS and their cabal of collective rapists so feel the need to expend their energy in entrenching a "policy" of alliance guaranteed highway robbery, than others should be equally free to create a scenario of mutually assured destruction as a deterrent![/i]
[/quote]

If you cannot defend yourself from the world what better way to do so then to join an alliance?

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334618596' post='2954506']
Personally if it's beneficial do it.[/quote]
How selfish.

[quote]No, I personally don't understand the need to unite against people who believe themselves to be masters of other men. Doing so would not benefit me.[/quote]
Oh, so you must be uniting with your comrades because it is YOU who think themselves masters of other men? It all makes sense now.

[quote]It means the nation has learned and wont be getting raided anymore. Meaning had the Mongols nation instead just offered him asylum from GOONS this whole war could have been avoided.[/quote] "Learned"? 'Tis a sad state of affairs when individually is so despised that it prompts attacks by those who must huddle in fear within the ranks of others. And, perhaps this war didn't need to be avoided.

[quote]If you cannot defend yourself from the world what better way to do so then to join an alliance?[/quote] Yes, welcome to the machine. If by "world" you mean groups of murderous thieves, then sometimes I think it is the "world" that needs a good punch to the eye.

Anyway, you can see my stance on it clearly enough. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for the peanut gallery) this topic is about PB's announcement rather than whats wrong with the world today. While those two seem very much related in my mind, I'll spare the "world" anymore of my stumping.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Tick1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334619409' post='2954512']
How selfish.

Oh, so you must be uniting with your comrades because it is YOU who think themselves masters of other men? It all makes sense now.
[/quote]


Should a lion believe itself to be evil when it eats a Gazelle?

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334619605' post='2954516']
Should a lion believe itself to be evil when it eats a Gazelle?
[/quote]

A lion has no sense of self or empathy for those who are not lions, the marked difference between man and animal. Which are you?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[death from above 82]

edit: deleted text- probably best left unsaid

Edited April 17, 2012 by death from above 82

[Tick1]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1334619737' post='2954517']
A lion has no sense of self or empathy for those that are not lions, the marked difference between man and animal. Which are you?
[/quote]

Now who is the master, do you really believe we are that different from the other animals on this planet. Just because you label yourself as 'higher being' doesn't make you anything different than an animal. Stop trying to be something your not and embrace the world for what it is.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Tick1' timestamp='1334619941' post='2954519']
Now who is the master, do you really believe we are that different from the other animals on this planet. Just because you label yourself as 'higher being' doesn't make you anything different than an animal. Stop trying to be something your not and embrace the world for what it is.[/quote]

The human animal is a creature who has many drives, of which you have aggression which impels others to take from those weaker, and you have empathy, which builds societies. Aggression is universal, found within the basest of any animal, the ability to build constructively is a higher order of thought. Both are needed in balance, as you are champion of one, I must be the champion for the other.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[Sephiroth]

I don't think Tick1 is posting seriously, but just seeing how long he can get responses while arguing over nothing.

Hey Tick1, do you know why a female spider sometimes eats the male spider after mating with them?











The answer to this has as much to do with this war along with the motivations as much as all the points you bring up, nothing at all!

[Tick1]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1334620791' post='2954525']
I don't think Tick1 is posting seriously, but just seeing how long he can get responses while arguing over nothing.

Hey Tick1, do you know why a female spider sometimes eats the male spider after mating with them?

The answer to this has as much to do with this war along with the motivations as much as all the points you bring up, nothing at all!
[/quote]

Oh, my bad I didn't notice you brought up something of value in your... how many posts in the 10-14 threads? That's what I thought, you've made no great strive to understand anyone's point of view and merely obnoxiously stated your opinions. If you honestly believe my posts hold no merit stop reading them, honestly stop replying to me.