Kaiser Martens Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Guys, I have come to realize that (At least in my opinion) one of the reasons why CNRP has been static, and why people have been apathetic or otherwise outright hostile in OOC is the rules. The rules are currently a hinderance more than an actual help. They greatly favor those who are in the defense, and the top-end of the technologies used are so highly speculative that OOC arguments are inevitable. The rules we're currently using can be best seen as a metaphorical ww1-trench warfare - it's no wonder that nothing good happens! This in turn makes people frustrated and angry IC as well as OOC. I'm an old dude here so I decided to throw in my lot. Note that not everything here are my ideas. It's just what I think is best to make CNRP more dynamic and less OOCfail. We are all gonna have to make some sacrifices, but the point is that it should be worth it as it should make this game be worth playing once again. 1: First I'll be looking at the map. People like fighting over certain areas a lot, or complain that the good zones may be crowded. A potential solution would be to expand the current map to include a new continent, or to include various landmasses. These new landmasses would be no-man's land in the sense that people could go there and RP any kind of ethnicity and culture, even ones that don't exist. Then we don't need to have so much competition for areas like Germany, as you can just go be a Kraut elsewhere. I don't like this a lot but if it improves CNRP so be it. From my experience, this was done once with the Atlantis Continent and surprisingly it actually generated great RP, believe it or not. People could even design their own landmass and have it be an island, or slapping it next to someone if they have their consent. 2: Then there's the problems of "Things" that are created without any ties to ingame stats. Whenever somebody sees !@#$ coming, they'll build massive walls and bunkers and insane static defences EVERYWHERE just because they can and don't see any other choice, I know because I've done this myself, unfortunately, this favors DEFENSIVE play and not offensive play, and should be heavily restricted. It contributes to things becoming "stuck". Most defensive structures should have a limit of some kind, such as being tied to wonders (The AA wonder is typical for this) or some other stat. Besides it's unrealistic to have such massive fortifications. This same item can be applied to other things. We have to be reasonable! Static defences are still a !@#$%* tactic, but allowing them in unlimited numbers for free makes things bad for all of us. 3: Let's not be dicks. Let's not forget this. Sometimes we look like whiny effing kids. And now, the core of the issue, the most important thing. Yes, you guessed it: Technology! 4: Opening the can of worms... People write their superduper future technology items all the time, but none of us is an engineer, we just can't make it work, and this only leads to silly OOC fights. Writing a war becomes tantamount to writing a paper on how your future technology is better than the other guy's technology. This favors defensive war, as the complexity of attacking becomes overwhelming. Therefore, I hate it. I propose a twofold solution, one to avoid OOC trouble, and one to give more creative options, both working together. The first part of the solution is the creation of a new tech scale. I say that if we're to stop being technobabblers, the absolute cap of our technology should be whatever our current year is, so we'd have to adjust this every year. This applies to [b]MILITARY[/b] technology only, so that Lynneth can keep doing his space shenanigans if he feels like it. The beginning of our tech scale should be 1945 - The start of the cold war. The scale should be adjusted so that most people have technology from the 80s or 90s, which, unsurprisingly, is what happens in real life militarily speaking. What this does is it forces us not to do techno!@#$%^&* by tying each and every one of our machines to things that actually existed and are easy to verify, and lack ambiguety. I cannot into mathematik so i can't post a graph or chart myself, but as long as most people's stuff is like 80-90s level, it will work. Small nations should have stuff from 40-70s, and the massive nations should have stuff from 2000-current year. The second part of the rule is that at the same time, since most people don't necessarily want to RP such items, the actual thing being used can be named anything. That is to say, if you want to have a steampunk army you can so long as your crazy tanks are tied down to a RL tank of your tech period when stats are concerned. This also allows some people to even use futuristic equipment if they feel like it, just with verifiable stats instead. You can still have your fancy plane but it can do only what something that was actually built and used could. Hell you wouldn't necessarily have to have humans, although that's not my style. Another thing that we may want to throw in is how to deal with spies. I propose that we use them as elite units, and make them capable of using functional prototypes of the era. Like every 50 or 100 spies you're entitled to one prototype. Maybe every 25 if it's a land unit, since in land the numbers of things involved are always far higher. These new rules discourage defensive play, and encourage dynamic play. These rules make you able to wage a war without many hours of research and technotextwalls. These rules discourage OOC trouble because everything is easy to verify. These rules enable you to have much more flexibility when creating your nation. These rules may not be perfect but at least they are FUN, unlike the current ruleset. So stop the ooc mexican standoff and come make some compromise for the sake of not being bored and angry at each other all the time. Don't be selfish. And that's all I have to say about that. /forest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm ok with this scale, sole caveat I believe that anyone should be able to RP stuff commonly fielded by terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah such as AK-47s, IEDs, RPGs, some of the more primitive rockets. Stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Martens Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yes, I agree if the rest do. They still get to portray it as being (Looking like) other things so long as the stats are pinned to those commonplace things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Instead of a log based scale, I think level-style scaling would be easier for all to understand and use. Perhaps we can change this a bit to fit what Martens has in mind: 0~49.99: World War 1 (~1936) 50~249.99: World War 2 (1936~1945) 250~499.99: Korean War (1945~1955) 500~999.99: Vietnam War (1955~1970) 1000~1499.99: Revolutionary Era (1970~1980) 1500~2999.99: Gulf War (1980~1995) 3000~4999.99: Modern (1995~Current) 5000~: Future (Current~15 years from current) Yes, I know I made it, but it's still a good format, I believe. I would like to add that it is my opinion we need to lower the cap tech from 10,000 to something like 5,000. Edited March 28, 2012 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Martens Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'll let the people who understand numbers sort it out Also we'd need to measure the tech of our players so as to be able to make a suitable chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'll do the statistics after tomorrow, if no one else does it before I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 People can tech stomp others no matter what time frame. I'm surprised some of you are forgetting how it was before Lynneth's tech scale was put into place. Same thing as it is now, tech stomps.. ooc baawfest.. cheating... power tripping from GMs.. lying.. and all sorts of folderol. Changing the tech scale doesn't really accomplish anything. You need to change the attitudes of the core membership to make it a better experience for everyone. Which won't ever happen. So do enjoy this little experiment while it lasts, it's only going to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1332915840' post='2944183'] People can tech stomp others no matter what time frame. I'm surprised some of you are forgetting how it was before Lynneth's tech scale was put into place. Same thing as it is now, tech stomps.. ooc baawfest.. cheating... power tripping from GMs.. lying.. and all sorts of folderol. Changing the tech scale doesn't really accomplish anything. You need to change the attitudes of the core membership to make it a better experience for everyone. Which won't ever happen. So do enjoy this little experiment while it lasts, it's only going to fail. [/quote] Still can't hurt to try, eh? Who knows, we might all be pleasantly surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Now you see why I'm using my stuff. Regardless of how you change the techscale, I most certainly always will be able to use Berthiers. [quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1332915840' post='2944183'] People can tech stomp others no matter what time frame. I'm surprised some of you are forgetting how it was before Lynneth's tech scale was put into place. Same thing as it is now, tech stomps.. ooc baawfest.. cheating... power tripping from GMs.. lying.. and all sorts of folderol. Changing the tech scale doesn't really accomplish anything. You need to change the attitudes of the core membership to make it a better experience for everyone. Which won't ever happen. So do enjoy this little experiment while it lasts, it's only going to fail. [/quote] Yes, though there always should be the possibility of going Afghanistan. One doesn't need a crapload of tech to beat a modern power in the defense. Edited March 28, 2012 by Evangeline Anovilis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 As for number 1, why don't we just get rid of the world map and use a fake world. That would make for some good RP. Instead of using the history and biases of our world, we create our own history. If this suggestion happens, I may rejoin CNRP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggressivenutmeg Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='Bacharth' timestamp='1332924073' post='2944240'] As for number 1, why don't we just get rid of the world map and use a fake world. That would make for some good RP. Instead of using the history and biases of our world, we create our own history. If this suggestion happens, I may rejoin CNRP. [/quote] I was about to suggest the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacharth Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 The only downside I see (if people view it as a downside) is that everyone story will be wiped out, unless they want to modify it to their new standards. I think, with a new mapmaker, this transition can be done well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Well, as my old characters are mostly 'dead' and I didn't do anything extensive with France yet (Damn writers block), I'm fine with about any changes now. Without the current map, we also need not roll others for BSing Dutch in the middle of Asia. Though, how are mountains, rivers and such handled? I'm not a friend of the first nation saying there is a river in the middle of the country, the next one to roll there RPs a desert, the third makes a Tibetian highland out of it. Else I just RP I'm living on 3000 m altitude and my borders are 90° vertical cliffs. Another little idea I got: If we get a new techscale and a new map. Can we also reset all those stupid relations with all your goddamn conflicts? Edited March 28, 2012 by Evangeline Anovilis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Assuming that we do use a new map..... Why not have someone who no longer plays CNRP to make one for us? It might save us the trouble of the Photoshop problem by allowing us to use free programs such as GIMP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I like most of the idea in this thread provided tech scales only affect military tech and civilian tech remains up in the air as is proposed in the OP. That said I object to completely replacing the map, not only causes it unneccesary work for the future map maker but it also hurts people that have a story to their current land. Just adding a new land mass is good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I like the tech idea. I like the map idea of adding a new continent. The rest I'm too bugged out at the moment to think over and comprehend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Executive Minister Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'd like to know exactly what happened in CNRP that has created all these sudden 'problems' with the tech scale. Again, you people weren't happy with tech efficiency, you weren't happy with Third/Modern/Future scale and now you're not happy with the log scale? Just two seconds ago I read Eva suggesting we cap technology at World War II levels?! What is going on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Triyun made the topic you just wrote a reply to. Seems like he opened a can of worms. That being said, I'm against any scale going beyond ten years from now or having a cap at 10,00 tech. Edited March 28, 2012 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1332945829' post='2944334'] Just two seconds ago I read Eva suggesting we cap technology at World War II levels?! [/quote] Someone wanted to change the techscale, I stated my opinion what to scale it to, if we rescale it. And maybe people go with it and my Ju-40 will get modern again. The Berthiers are antiquitated anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergerberger II Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='Bacharth' timestamp='1332924073' post='2944240'] As for number 1, why don't we just get rid of the world map and use a fake world. That would make for some good RP. Instead of using the history and biases of our world, we create our own history. If this suggestion happens, I may rejoin CNRP. [/quote] If you want to revitalize CNRP, this is probably the best way to do it, in my opinion. But it presents all kinds of new challenges and problems, because a map of the world has to account for geographical features (hills, mountains, rivers, oceans, lakes, forests, rainforests, everything), as well as resources (oil, trees, coal, gold, silver, arsenic, uranium, food, fresh water, millions more), and it all has to be developed down to a very small level. You have to map out everything that exists in the world and could possibly influence decisions made at a state level, which is a lot of things. It will require a massive amount of time, energy, research, and planning, not to mention the large amount of time it will undoubtedly take for this community to actually accept a map. From there, you get the questions of history. What is the history? Do we have a continuous history? Does history start in the modern era? What happens when a nation falls, do we keep its history? Making a new world is no small task. I would definitely be all for playing in a made up world, but there will be all kinds of problems creating the world. I agree with the idea of a refinement of the tech scale, although I disagree with Kankou's proposal and lean more towards Triyun's in the other thread with the uppermost level a bit lower (someone proposed 7.5k tech, I rather like that number). The main reason being that no one in the world uses world war I technology, or even world war II technology. I mean, we have stateless terrorists using pretty advanced stuff. I think the tech scale should probably run 1960 to the modern day, or something of the sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarfef Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Short answer: no. Why is there another thread about CN and technology - I posted my answer over there ("No") and my ideas stand similar over here as well. Wide-ranging technology, while it exists in real life is degrading to players and treats them like junk. Even the rebels in Iraq use cell-phone based IEDs that would never be possible back in WWII. We live in a different age then WWII and some tech is more easily accessible then others. Techno-babble occurred before as well, it was just those of us attempting to argue that such-and-such a technology existed during the 1960s that is in use today but never took off because it was ahead of it's time. I was born in Generation Y, I don't relate to 1945 - it's old and most of the people that were fighting back then are dead or on their way out. If you want to stop the technobabble (and I do admit to loving techno babble as much as you military nerds love your military militarybabble and history buffs love their historybabble) then make the system fair for all. Keep the logarithmic system or better yet, make sure that everyone can RP at the same level and throw out the technology stat altogether. --------------- EDIT: I will however note, that I am in favor of the map part. Just expand the horizontal nature of the map or even add a second planet to the solar system (heck with Mars and the laws of physics, create a duplicate earth on the shadow side of the sun with differing geography. However, while the land should be made to be interesting for players, it should at the same time make sure that fairness is in play. Hence, it's a bad idea to grant the capacity to create one's own island and drop it in there - because otherwise you'll end up with lands built as their own defense structures. I even have a world map from the N&S games I talked about in the other thread available for the world of Nevarian in the perfect format for doing this and would happily allow them to be used: [center][IMG]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f368/pascal19/Neverian.png[/IMG][/center] [center][IMG]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f368/pascal19/NeverianBorders.png[/IMG][/center] I specifically designed these worlds to be interesting and strategically 'fun' so there should be plenty to do with them if you want to use them. Edited March 28, 2012 by Zarfef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1332955275' post='2944379'] good stuff I agree with [/quote] This man has the right idea. I would be in full support of this idea, tech and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1332955275' post='2944379'] The main reason being that no one in the world uses world war I technology, or even world war II technology. [/quote] I used the Berthier rifle, Napoleonic era uniforms, ships of the line, [url="http://i.imgur.com/mMRtl.jpg"]Ju-40[/url]'s on seaplane tenders, WWII artillery in the past and apart from the rifle (which got replaced by a nice new automatic battle rifle with sword bayonet) and the Napoleonic uniforms (got replaced by French WWII uniforms), I still use them. I wouldn't say nobody uses them. Reminds me, I think I'll build railway guns... Edited March 28, 2012 by Evangeline Anovilis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I think he meant in the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalissimo Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Don’t like Kankou’s new technology scale! CNRP’s current technology scale is nearly the only thing about our current rule set that isn’t completely broken. Don’t like the map idea! It’s way too much retcon for my taste. Retroactive continuity is usually bad. If we really need open space for new players why not disallow continent spanning empires? Arbitrary national size limits guarantees white space. No protectorates either, nobody likes protectorates. In the short term. . . why not just reopen Antarctica and the Arctic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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