Community Input on Improving CNRP, GMs and such.

[Mogar]

I want to point out, I have lost about 80% of my ns during this war, and had I had a CNRP nation at the time, I wouldn't have complained about the loss of land/soldiers/etc, if I gave a $%&@ about my stats I'd be in GPA(no offense lyn) you play CN for the IC politics and we play CNRP for entirely different IC politics, the two shouldn't be related.

[Kankou]

Going back to the regular topic:

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324514491' post='2883652']
Forcing budgets
Changing military
More preplanned wars
Less GM intervention[/quote]

1. Budget: I don't know, I mean we could use that GDP equation I thought of an year ago and use it as a base to get at an approximate budget, but I'm not sure if people would like more equations.

2. Military: I say we make a separate thread for this.

3. More like once a unplanned war starts, the attacker try to cooperate with the attacked. Frankly, about half of the time it's just a pure attempt at gangbanging.

4. Less GM intervention: People just need to stop running to the GMs every time things don't go their way. What are PMs for?

[Zoot Zoot]

I fully back Pravus on this one. On ALL his points.

[Mogar]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324514491' post='2883652']
As an aside, Triyun's CN alliance history has no bearing here. It does not have anything to do with how to improve CNRP. We can stop that discussion now and focus on the topic of improving CNRP. Some ideas I have noticed are:

Forcing budgets
Changing military
More preplanned wars
Less GM intervention

How do we, as a community of RPers, want to expand upon these ideas, so it doesn't increase the amount of rules/regs of CNRP and increase the burden of the GM system?
[/quote]
I'm not sure forcing a budget is the ideal solution, but nations spending what amounts to tens of trillions of dollars on war and the related materials a year is unrealistic, limitations on war perhaps would be a possible solution, no declaring wars every other week, using the US as an example from reality, we've fought what amounts to 3 wars in the past 20 years, and those were a large portion of our current national debt.

agreeing with Kankou on the military one

As one of the "whiners" due to a gangbang war, yes it would be nice if the attackers were willing to be more cooperative on allowing the defender to not simply be wiped from the map, it sucks to have all of your work erased simply because someone else is bored.

GMs shouldn't be the endall, the players should be, I like tbm's idea for the more hands off GMs.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324533498' post='2883876']
Going back to the regular topic:



1. Budget: I don't know, I mean we could use that GDP equation I thought of an year ago and use it as a base to get at an approximate budget, but I'm not sure if people would like more equations.

2. Military: I say we make a separate thread for this.

3. More like once a unplanned war starts, the attacker try to cooperate with the attacked. Frankly, about half of the time it's just a pure attempt at gangbanging.

4. Less GM intervention: People just need to stop running to the GMs every time things don't go their way. What are PMs for?
[/quote]

[b]Budget:[/b] Lynneth created a GDP equation a while back for adding a bit of depth to RPing. GDP, however, is not a budget. It is the total worth of domestic product/services of a country. Creating a budget should be for flair mostly, but within CNRP people do have stronger focuses in different sectors than others. Some choose to do mostly military, others police force and education. I don't like seeing more rules come about, but encouraging people to attempt to add depth through a budget appropriate for their nation size (lets leave it to common sense). The thing to remember is just because there is a budget doesn't mean there is an economy. A budget can purchase whatever a nations heart desires, but because of the complexity of roleplaying an economy, the affect of the budget choices are up to the nation.

[b]Military:[/b] I've found the simpler the better. What we have IG, we have in CNRP and what is not in CNRP is governed by common sense or "is equal to x". I've never seen a problem with this course. The few that have abused this system have not ruined it for the rest of us. The biggest issue with military is probably people understanding the technology being used and tactics/strategies for war. A technology thread already exists to help people understand the technology, lets let people begin using the resources around them before we change something that doesn't need fixing.

[b]Preplanned Wars:[/b] Unplanned wars usually are discussed. There are times when they aren't (South American Wars back in 2009) and it becomes a pain in the butt, and there are times when they are discussed through (Cochin-Coalition War) when the wars turn out better than expected. Most wars are planned some how, and even most unplanned wars aren't "gangbangs". Discussion goes a long way, and people have been encouraging that recently.

[b]GM Intervention:[/b] I believe the community at large has a strong belief in this. With encouragement from others in the community and the GM's, we could make this the normal procedure.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Voodoo Nova

[Kankou]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324535067' post='2883906']
[b]Budget:[/b] Lynneth created a GDP equation a while back for adding a bit of depth to RPing. GDP, however, is not a budget. It is the total worth of domestic product/services of a country. Creating a budget should be for flair mostly, but within CNRP people do have stronger focuses in different sectors than others. Some choose to do mostly military, others police force and education. I don't like seeing more rules come about, but encouraging people to attempt to add depth through a budget appropriate for their nation size (lets leave it to common sense). The thing to remember is just because there is a budget doesn't mean there is an economy. A budget can purchase whatever a nations heart desires, but because of the complexity of roleplaying an economy, the affect of the budget choices are up to the nation.[/quote]
I meant that we could use the basic idea of GDP equations to make an approximate budget equation. After seeing some of the people do their budgets, I don't think there is any common sense on national budgets.

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324535067' post='2883906'][b]Military:[/b] I've found the simpler the better. What we have IG, we have in CNRP and what is not in CNRP is governed by common sense or "is equal to x". I've never seen a problem with this course. The few that have abused this system have not ruined it for the rest of us. The biggest issue with military is probably people understanding the technology being used and tactics/strategies for war. A technology thread already exists to help people understand the technology, lets let people begin using the resources around them before we change something that doesn't need fixing[/quote]
A few more rules concerning missile numbers and navy tonnage wouldn't hurt.

[Triyun]

Well if people would be willing to do it. Doing something like my naval tonnage ideas instead of multipliers might be cool. The basic idea was. For each slot we choose one type of iconic vessel. For example the carrier slot would be the nimitz. You could then get that number of tonnage for that slot. So you could choose instead of building a super carrier for example to build two smaller carriers. Or you could have a huge swarm of SSKs. This way you get away from stuff like the ridiculous notion of maintaining in my case 12 fully AEGIS style modern battleships, instead we'd take 12 Iowas displacements and instead I'd acquire a large number of frigates and destroyers.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Triyun

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' timestamp='1324532615' post='2883868']
Mael, stop. Seriously, stop. You know the reason you can't have your lizard people? Because the MODS said that this world is based off of earth, circa 2006. Now, I was alive 5 years ago and though I was in college, I was pretty sure there weren't lizard people walking around the world. So that's why you can't have your stupid lizard people. There is no form of life like that on this planet, based off of Planet Earth.
[/quote]

If this is the case, then congratulations.. all nations are dead from fallout. We had this argument three pages back. Revisiting it won't help. There's not a human alive that could have survived the number of nuclear conflicts the earth has been through since then. So what race are we on now? Maybe all our citizens should be roaches and insects.. the ones that are said to inherit the earth post nuclear holocaust?

The mods may be changing their mind and I'm making the case for it as I have the right to do so. I think basing this rp on earth has been a lousy idea, because no one could keep to an even vaguely realistic simulation. It wasn't politically practical for them. Maybe base the terrain and the continents on earth.. but the rest.. needs to have some creative liberty as those liberties have already been taken in excess and upon a whim by those with the social and appointed clout to do so. As I said, no citizen living in any nation alive on Bob/Earth.. could be an original Homo Sapien if the simulation was even to be vaguely realistic. If the rest of you wish to indulge your fantasies and stretch the fabric of reality, I see no reason not to indulge mine.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324540660' post='2883961']
If this is the case, then congratulations.. all nations are dead from fallout. We had this argument three pages back. Revisiting it won't help.
[/quote]
Only in your imaginary world. Not enough fallout has ever been throw to kill the world, but only to heighten the possibilities of cancer. Stop being sore and get on with business.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324540828' post='2883962']
Only in your imaginary world. Not enough fallout has ever been throw to kill the world, but only to heighten the possibilities of cancer. Stop being sore and get on with business.
[/quote]

Not that any of this entire line of discussion isn't tangential to the actual conversation as started with Pravus, but....

Aren't you the same person who several pages back suggested we had the technology to clean up things like.. oh.. Chernobyl.. or Fukushima.. have you gotten them cleaned up yet? I'm waiting on you to restore world confidence in nuclear power. I'm not sore, I just making light of bad ideas at the inconvenience of those that might suggest them. When you have Chernobyl cleaned up and habitable again, come back and talk to us here.. you'll then have a leg to stand on in the discussion. I don't like having to point out people who've hobbled themselves.

Even if what you say were accurate, and it's not... how many RPs do you see of people dieing in droves of cancer and the radiation de-populating the earth/bob in CNRP?

Fighting for ones ideas and thoughts is not being "sore".

The ones who seem to be sore are the ones who don't seem to like me fighting for my perspective. Given I can be quite the stubborn porcupine, I can see why.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324541168' post='2883964']
Aren't you the same person who several pages back suggested we had the technology to clean up things like.. oh.. Chernobyl.. or Fukushima.. have you gotten them cleaned up yet? I'm waiting on you to restore world confidence in nuclear power. I'm not sore, I just making light of bad ideas at the inconvenience of those that might suggest them. When you have Chernobyl cleaned up and habitable again, come back and talk to us here.. you'll then have a leg to stand on in the discussion. I don't like having to point out people who've hobbled themselves.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.kaeri.re.kr:8080/board/menu1/view.ht?keyCode=16&start=0&sk=&sf=0&search_category=&article_seq=2823&article_upSeq=282"]We're already almost there[/URL]. Do I always have to sink your outdated thoughts, which you probably wouldn't even recognize in the end?

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324541168' post='2883964']Even if what you say were accurate, and it's not... how many RPs do you see of people dieing in droves of cancer and the radiation de-populating the earth/bob in CNRP?[/quote]
Not sure why we have to force people to RP out such mundane details. Do you always RP out the death of people to diseases, etc? I get your stance, but seriously, in the bigger picture of things it isn't that big in the first place.


[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324541168' post='2883964']Fighting for ones ideas and thoughts is not being "sore".

The ones who seem to be sore are the ones who don't seem to like me fighting for my perspective. Given I can be quite the porcupine, I can see why.
[/quote]
Your perspectives concerning facts are almost always wrong, and you rarely recognize that. That's why I'm saying you're sore. If you're arguing something based on good enough evidence and such, I wouldn't be this hardline in the first place.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou

[Triyun]

I eagerly await activation of assassination protocols

[Sal Paradise]

"More rules and less GM intervention" is what I got from the last few pages.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324542074' post='2883968']
[URL="http://www.kaeri.re.kr:8080/board/menu1/view.ht?keyCode=16&start=0&sk=&sf=0&search_category=&article_seq=2823&article_upSeq=282"]We're already almost there[/URL]. Do I always have to sink your outdated thoughts, which you probably wouldn't even recognize in the end?
[/quote]

Why should I accept what this as truth? It's a single site link backed by no corroborating data. A general consense of sites and sources point it (chernobyl) to be to be radioactive for 24,000 more years. While there are some areas that will be habitable long before then, areas such as the forests and the reactor itself will remain lethal. Scientists have this bad habit of frequently claiming great things and then only being able to effect about 1/2 of them. Mind you that half of what is done is often miraculous. I'm highly dubious about the sources claim. If you want a list of my sites and sources, google Chernobyl, I don't have time to write a second hand research study for you.

[quote]
Not sure why we have to force people to RP out such mundane details. Do you always RP out the death of people to diseases, etc? I get your stance, but seriously, in the bigger picture of things it isn't that big in the first place.
[/quote]

Why do we pick and chose what one must and must not rp out? The death of large percentages of the population have a significant impact on military and economic capability. Your attempted marginalization of the destructive effects of nuclear weapons is wrong, and sends the wrong message to everyone reading it. The potential for human interest rp is enormous, but ignored. People'd rather rp firing their nukes and looking glorious than to rp a child's grandmother dieing in a hospital from the effects of their weapons. Thus, our characters.. are inhuman already. They're inhuman because we do not wish to take into account the negative impact of our actions. In effect, we are not bound by the rules of causality and are immune to consequence.

[quote]
Your perspectives concerning facts are almost always wrong, and you rarely recognize that. That's why I'm saying you're sore. If you're arguing something based on good enough evidence and such, I wouldn't be this hardline in the first place.
[/quote]

I beg to differ. But I'm not going to get into an "I'm wrong, you're wrong" type argument that is not based on facts. That would be childish. Your claim is irrelevant and an ad hominem. I look at it from another angle. The fact you believe it wrong is merely your [i]opinion[/i] unless you back it with fact. If you want your evidence, go search for it, it is out there. I'm not your secretary. It is not my job to educate you about nuclear physics.

Double standards everywhere..

I want it to be real.. but I want to ignore fallout,
I want it to be earth.. but I don't want to acknowledge I have rendered it uninhabitable with my own actions.
I want it to only be humans.. but some people can play some vaguely human things without mockery and others cannot..
I want it to be fair and to write a story.. but I want to roll my enemies without resistance or remorse..
I want a fair system to base the rp on that takes into account the statistical strength of nations.. but I will do everything in my power to ensure those that war and fight in the game cannot stand up to me because I avoid combat and am sheltered from it without giving them any compensation for the fact they do fight and war for their peers in the actual game.

Where does it end? More importantly, why am I bothering expecting any real change?

Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324542074' post='2883968']



[b]Not sure why we have to force people to RP out such mundane details.[/b] Do you always RP out the death of people to diseases, etc? I get your stance, but seriously, in the bigger picture of things it isn't that big in the first place.

[/quote]

Why you insisting we need budgets?

[quote]Well if people would be willing to do it. Doing something like my naval tonnage ideas instead of multipliers might be cool. The basic idea was. For each slot we choose one type of iconic vessel. For example the carrier slot would be the nimitz. You could then get that number of tonnage for that slot. So you could choose instead of building a super carrier for example to build two smaller carriers. Or you could have a huge swarm of SSKs. This way you get away from stuff like the ridiculous notion of maintaining in my case 12 fully AEGIS style modern battleships, instead we'd take 12 Iowas displacements and instead I'd acquire a large number of frigates and destroyers.[/quote]

OH GOD YES...

The only suggestion I have for this is people present their proposed naval builds to community at large for people to inspect by requiring a very detailed naval section of their factbook.

This might rile some people up but no ships that were designed on some paint program the rper downloaded for free and made some SWAGs about tonnage and equipment.

The ships must be in current service or a proposed design with specs from a reputable publication (mad magazine need not apply).

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324543014' post='2883974']
Why should I accept what this as truth? It's a single site link backed by no corroborating data. A general consense of sites and sources point it (chernobyl) to be to be radioactive for 24,000 more years. While there are some areas that will be habitable long before then, areas such as the forests and the reactor itself will remain lethal. Scientists have this bad habit of frequently claiming great things and then only being able to effect about 1/2 of them. Mind you that half of what is done is often miraculous. I'm highly dubious about the sources claim.[/quote]
Yes, you may be dubious of what the Korea Atomic Energy Research Institute, one of the most advanced nuclear research institution in the world, has developed for almost a decade, has set off to commercialize, and which was the basis for the Japanese government hiring Korean firms to clean up the region around the Fukushima nuclear plant. I'm pretty sure your knowledge must be better than what the following papers has been around /sarcasm

http://210.101.116.28/W_kiss61/10910678_pv.pdf
http://article.nuclear.or.kr/jknsfile/v36/JK0360304.pdf
http://www.cheric.org/PDF/JIEC/IE13/IE13-3-0406.pdf


[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324543014' post='2883974']Why do we pick and chose what one must and must not rp out? The death of large percentages of the population have a significant impact on military and economic capability. Your attempted marginalization of the destructive effects of nuclear weapons is wrong, and sends the wrong message to everyone reading it. The potential for human interest rp is enormous, but ignored. People'd rather rp firing their nukes and looking glorious than to rp a child's grandmother dieing in a hospital from the effects of their weapons. Thus, our characters.. are inhuman already.[/quote]
I would wish others would write as your ideal (which I agree also), but then..... you know what people would rather write. Nothing more than I can say.


[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324543014' post='2883974']I beg to differ. But I'm not going to get into an "I'm wrong, you're wrong" type argument that is not based on facts. That would be childish. Your claim is irrelevant and an ad hominem. I look at it from another angle. The fact you believe it wrong is merely your [i]opinion[/i] unless you back it with fact.
[/quote]
You mean all the demolishing of your claims by half of the forum weren't evidence enough? I suppose it is hopeless then.



[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1324543688' post='2883976']
Why you insisting we need budgets? [/quote]
[b][i]Approximate[/i][/b] budgets, like "since we have about $300 billion to use, we better not go spending a trillion on shielding every single building in the country that has the population of 300 million, or go build anti-ship guns 100 meters along the shoreline". I'm not asking for detailed stuff.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324543774' post='2883977']
Yes, you may be dubious of what the Korea Atomic Energy Research Institute, one of the most advanced nuclear research institution in the world, has developed for almost a decade, has set off to commercialize, and which was the basis for the Japanese government hiring Korean firms to clean up the region around the Fukushima nuclear plant. I'm pretty sure your knowledge must be better than what the following papers has been around /sarcasm

http://210.101.116.28/W_kiss61/10910678_pv.pdf
http://article.nuclear.or.kr/jknsfile/v36/JK0360304.pdf
http://www.cheric.org/PDF/JIEC/IE13/IE13-3-0406.pdf
[/quote]

Two papers by the same people selling the same process in two periods of time. So.. why haven't the Russians taken an interest? The third one, the middle one, I can't read. I'm not going to learn Korean to debate you. Can you indicate a third party source that has validated their findings? Some things are practical in a lab, but not in widespread practice. No better source on that than Edison.

[quote]
I would wish others would write as your ideal (which I agree also), but then..... you know what people would rather write. Nothing more than I can say.[/quote]

Well, glad you agree with me on something. The reason I know what they would rather write is because of what they have written.

[quote]
You mean all the demolishing of your claims by half of the forum weren't evidence enough? I suppose it is hopeless then.
[/quote]

If your claim is that the "masses" which are not half the forums.. not even a majority.. not even a fraction.. supporting you is evidence I am wrong, you are the one who are hopeless. Firstly, the masses can be and are often wrong especially on matters of perspective.. see the UFO hysteria. Secondly, popularity does not make right. Not only do you use ad hominem, but your logic is seriously flawed.

[quote]
[b][i]Approximate[/i][/b] budgets, like "since we have about $300 billion to use, we better not go spending a trillion on shielding every single building in the country that has the population of 300 million, or go build anti-ship guns 100 meters along the shoreline". I'm not asking for detailed stuff.
[/quote]

To late, most countries have already done this. We'd have to extract the budget abuses out of them and I hardly see that happening by popular support.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Tanis777]

[quote name='Pravus Ingruo' timestamp='1324532615' post='2883868']
-snip-
[/quote]

This is where I totally agree with Pravus Ingruo on all his point. Unfortunately for you Mael, I am apathetic towards your creations in CNRP. I'm actually fine with "slight" alterations to the reality if certain RPers like Mael are more inclined toward fantasy writing. But the whining over the last pages is enough and the "tit-for-tat" OOC character attacks must stop. Honestly, it proves the point of Pravus Ingruo on the community's lack of maturity. Like in all arguments, including on the internet, emotions will get in your head. If you get into the heat of the discussion, just step away and take a deep breath, drink water, think of something else and then come back, so you are not to be made a fool. The last couple pages, many of you look like fools.

[b]Military[/b]I believe PI has a point about technology that to solve it is a serious increase of maturity or going back to what we know is already developed and lowering the tech scale. I've found that while the technobabble is a form of bullying, although I can decipher it for the most part. I respect the fact they can write this stuff, it's cool since I'm in the sciences and engineering, but most here are casual players and don't need this. Problems with military doesn't really need another thread, it's really about technology mostly. Voodoo's thread on technology is a good step, but we'll probably needing more input from the community.

[b]Logistics rebuttal response[/b]As for responses to my logistics (mainly you Triyun), that post wasn't in regards to you specifically. I know your proximity to Cochin isn't a huge deal to logistics; however, if you were like attacking Germany, it would be another issue. Although you mention the Sovereign Initiative to NATO, I will agree they use the same tech and logistic manners for the most part; however, moving any amount of troops over two divisions by an advanced nation takes at best a month currently, even amongst NATO nations. The exceptions are divisions currently deployed really close to the area of conflict. The geographical differences between the different SI members still hold true if war is unnoticed and no RP I've found to see the cooperation between members to ferry troops and supplies over. But I don't want to dive into this further except with the revised war timelines do not permit for realistic troop deployments over long distances outside of home geographical locations. In the end, people need to do their research and approach with common sense.

[b]GM Intervention[/b]We do need to treat GM as mediators of last resort. Disputes must begin between the individuals in conflict must be given progress in "good faith" before it reaches a GM. Cases ruled by GMs, should be treated as stand alone cases and not precedents unless it pops up regularly. When this happens, a GM must address this as a possible rule change. We can agree that all rule changing toward CNRP should be given to the community, like I said, enough repetition of the same problems are problems that need to be addressed by the community.

I am going to define "good faith" as adequate communication between both sides to resolve their disputes enough to possibly understand each others position, but still come to a disagreement on further. To prove this, it may be provided through IRC logs, proof of PM communications, and/or a thread. The lack of the following, will prevent the GM from intervening in the dispute, although the actions of the thread(s) in dispute will be suspended pending resolution of conflict. That's my basis to prevent automatic dispute to GMs, although it could be fleshed out more. At least in my mind, this deals with and gives a process for less GM intervention.

[b]Budgets[/b] It really just reverts to common sense, to be honest, we would be digressing on the use of GDP for budgets, since honestly, it's not a good indicator for budgeting. Net worth =/= budget. Taxes/printing money = budget. Although the adequate equation based off IG stats would be a headache of epic proportions. Like Kankou said, budgets really have little logic from our standpoint, so it's hard to set a defined line in the sand here.

IG stuff and stats should not become part of OOC bickering, so what if people "protect" their stats or be in war? This should not have an influence on RP. This is part of the different reasons of why we come here and write and play on Bob. However, the word of caution to those I say to that are "cushing" on stats for warmongering/landgrabbing purposes should be crushed from time to time in used improperly as we've seen in the South American War. Most of you in the "cushing" position for the most part don't do this, so kudos to you.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324544730' post='2883980']
Two papers by the same people selling the same process in two periods of time. So.. why haven't the Russians taken an interest? The third one, the middle one, I can't read. I'm not going to learn Korean to debate you. Can you indicate a third party source that has validated their findings? Some things are practical in a lab, but not in widespread practice. No better source on that than Edison.[/quote]
First..... All papers are in English. Don't know why you mean Korean

Second, all I can say at this point is that the pilot plant has been a success (scaled down industrial size), and getting international patents such as in Europe would be enough proof. Also, the technology has been transferred to the industries

Pilot Plant: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1383586611002334
Video of Pilot Plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFJENFurjGY
European Patent: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2344829



[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324544730' post='2883980']To late, most countries have already done this. We'd have to extract the budget abuses out of them and I hardly see that happening by popular support.[/quote]
I'm willing to try.



@Tanis777: I actually meant how people do not have common sense when it comes to budget size, not that the budget isn't common sense to people. But you do have a point there.

[Tanis777]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324546315' post='2883982']
@Tanis777: I actually meant how people do not have common sense when it comes to budget size, not that the budget isn't common sense to people. But you do have a point there.
[/quote]

I'm starting to ramble in the early hours here, so I wasn't trying to elaborate much on budgets in my current near-sleep state. But yeah, I have to say, there is no real concrete formula that could solve the budget thing due to the many variables involved and each nation approaches them differently. Like I said, common sense and more fleshed out RP on some of the biggest projects being developed by RPers need to be done. People stick to what they know, can't beat them up for not wanting to learn about budgets.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1324545120' post='2883981']
This is where I totally agree with Pravus Ingruo on all his point. Unfortunately for you Mael, I am apathetic towards your creations in CNRP. I'm actually fine with "slight" alterations to the reality if certain RPers like Mael are more inclined toward fantasy writing. But the whining over the last pages is enough and the "tit-for-tat" OOC character attacks must stop. Honestly, it proves the point of Pravus Ingruo on the community's lack of maturity. Like in all arguments, including on the internet, emotions will get in your head. If you get into the heat of the discussion, just step away and take a deep breath, drink water, think of something else and then come back, so you are not to be made a fool. The last couple pages, many of you look like fools.
[/quote]

Totally agreed, I'm mostly in response mode to defend my ideas. That is all. There's few posts where I've not quoted someone else. I could already tell you CNRP's community is mostly immature purely based on the magnitude of hypocrisy and double-standards within it. In that regard, I and Pravus are in total agreement. Am I immature for some of my responses? Probably to some degree.. I'm just weary of the same old garbage slung in my direction and the same lousy and faulty arguments. My frustration may have just made me a little bit on the hot-headed side.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1324546700' post='2883984']
I'm starting to ramble in the early hours here, so I wasn't trying to elaborate much on budgets in my current near-sleep state. But yeah, I have to say, there is no real concrete formula that could solve the budget thing due to the many variables involved and each nation approaches them differently. Like I said, common sense and more fleshed out RP on some of the biggest projects being developed by RPers need to be done. People stick to what they know, can't beat them up for not wanting to learn about budgets.
[/quote]
Can't say much more than what you've said.

I've dug up my old GDP formula:
Avg. Gross Income Per Individual Per Day x Citizen Number x 36.5 x RP Population Multiplier (Max x 1,000) x [1 + (Tech/10,000)] x [1 + (Infra/20,000)]

I think we can change this to be something like...
Avg. Gross Income Per Individual Per Day x Citizen Number x 10 x RP Population Multiplier (Max x 1,000) x [1 + (Tech/10,000)] x [1 + (Infra/20,000)]

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324546315' post='2883982']
First..... All papers are in English. Don't know why you mean Korean

Second, all I can say at this point is that the pilot plant has been a success (scaled down industrial size), and getting international patents such as in Europe would be enough proof. Also, the technology has been transferred to the industries

Pilot Plant: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1383586611002334
Video of Pilot Plant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFJENFurjGY
European Patent: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2344829
[/quote]

The one I thought would be in Korean came out in English after Adobe finished installing the Korean Language set for whatever reason it needed it.. odd. But it too is by the same persons. Based on your information I am willing to acknowledge it is plausible (yes, I actually looked through the cited sources some), but until it is seen to solve an actual crisis area's contamination problems I will remain skeptical. The technology looks incredibly expensive and I do not believe most nations that have been under duress in CNRP history would have had the resources to employ these techniques. As I had stated previously, the problem isn't only technology, but infrastructure and deploy-ability after a nuclear war and the more complex the equipment and process the less likely it would be viable in a post-nuclear war society where resources would be extremely strained.

I mean, in a nuclear war, you're looking at EMP, multiple unpredictable impact sites (in terms of deploying technology you could not pre-deploy to a staging area before a nuke hit), the impact to industry of the nuclear war in producing the capitol equipment necessary to complete this process.

In short, while the situation might be a little less worse, due to the frequency and magnitude of CNRP's nuclear wars.. humanity would still be in grave condition.

[quote]
I'm willing to try.
[/quote]

Can't argue with trying.

[quote]@Tanis777: I actually meant how people do not have common sense when it comes to budget size, not that the budget isn't common sense to people. But you do have a point there.
[/quote]

I think people do not realize the cost of added value in production contexts especially when it comes to processes like EMP hardening. The end cost of the product goes up significantly.

Oh god.. please not GDP calculations again.. I like numbers.. but.. no.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324547057' post='2883987']
Can't say much more than what you've said.

I've dug up my old GDP formula:
Avg. Gross Income Per Individual Per Day x Citizen Number x 36.5 x RP Population Multiplier (Max x 1,000) x [1 + (Tech/10,000)] x [1 + (Infra/20,000)]

I think we can change this to be something like...
Avg. Gross Income Per Individual Per Day x Citizen Number x 10 x RP Population Multiplier (Max x 1,000) x [1 + (Tech/10,000)] x [1 + (Infra/20,000)]
[/quote]

Feel free to apply it to yourself first. I won't be bothering though and that is even if you all somehow find enough people to agree to this.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324547127' post='2883988']
The technology looks incredibly expensive and I do not believe most nations that have been under duress in CNRP history would have had the resources to employ these techniques. As I had stated previously, the problem isn't only technology, but infrastructure and deploy-ability after a nuclear war and the more complex the equipment and process the less likely it would be viable in a post-nuclear war society where resources would be extremely strained.

In short, while the situation might be a little less worse, due to the frequency and magnitude of CNRP's nuclear wars.. humanity would still be in grave condition.[/quote]
I guess I should start working on a mobile version for export


Updating on budgeting formula: Since most people likely wouldn't be RPing paying for social security/health care and other such mundane stuff, I've slashed the budget in half and also made the formula simpler, while giving the countries with smaller infra and technology a boost.

$60,000 x Infra x RP Population Multiplier (Max x 1,000)



Plus, this is a general formula, to see what your total budget on the military/infrastructure would be. I would say anything going above this would be beyond common sense.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou