Community Input on Improving CNRP, GMs and such.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324440927' post='2883044']
Add in a 3 month term then.
[/quote]

GM's are in place as representatives of the moderation team tasked over this section of the board. They are there until moderation says otherwise or they resign the position. That will not change either.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324497035' post='2883418']
GM's are in place as representatives of the moderation team tasked over this section of the board. They are there until moderation says otherwise or they resign the position. That will not change either.
[/quote]
Then go convince people like Tidy Bowl Man and Maelstrom Vortex. I don't know what further things we would need to do besides what I suggested which wouldn't be a radical departure from the current system.

[Triyun]

Can we all agree that Mael feels like he's the victim of vastly unfortunate circumstance and he's never going to stop playing that victim card till he gets what he wants and then move onto consideration of vastly more substantive topics.

To Tanis's point about logistics. I think there may be a bit of that in this war, but like Shammy for example only has 100k troops. The largest force on any one front is mine, which is around 600k +. That is directly adjacent to my land, and most of my forces are always stationed in the West because nobody lives there, versus the East which is among the most densely populated places on the globe, much like the reason the Western US has a hugely disproportionate amount of military bases compared to population versus the Eastern US. You've got vast areas of open land to build and train.

Edit: Also Kankou, the fact here is, is that this isn't a democracy. All comments here pertaining to the whole of CN RP (versus say one person butt hurt over not having dragons ) are relevant and taken seriously. But I do not think that the moderators have to seek a 'mandate' so to speak.

IMO the biggest thing that can be done for most wars, is the requirement to try and plan them out before the war starts, and then come to the GMs to authorize an unplanned war should one person be intransigent.

GMs are always going to be necessary so long as people have disputes. If people are serious about reducing disputes they should make more pre-planned wars, and when they get outplayed they should be willing to give something up.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Triyun

[Kankou]

Reposting what I wrote:

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324437985' post='2883000']
1. GMs as mainly moderators. There should be a reserve team to temporarily take up the main GMs' jobs should there be possible conflicts of interest.

2. Uphold due process of procedure. There needs to be at least a formal discussion on the subject (by PM, not IRC) by all active GMs at the minimum for any reform to pass. Consensus is ideal, but majority works.

3. Set up a separate technology/ military panel.[/quote]

Any comments?

[Triyun]

1. If GMs get into conflicts, they should agree on an independent moderator in the future. I don't think if they are not directly in conflict though there needs to be one. Thats the only true conflict of interest I foresee. At the end of the day though the GMs are chosen by mods.

2. I don't think that so long as discussion is made available to those involved parties it is a wrong thing to have an instant messaging conversation for the sake of convenience. I'm not aware of any conversation that is purposefully kept secretive from one GM. I talk to Cent and Cochin in query separately all the time. I'm not out hiding things from either when they ask about it though.

3. I was really the first person that pushed for this idea, a long time ago. Now I'm not so sure. I think we have enough GMs at the moment for the size of the RPing population. I think the real thing is to show some degree of mutual respect. That said, if you put more effort into one thing, take this war, Cochin put a lot more effort into his SOSUS than I did, I put a lot more effort into my air force than he did. That should count for something. A lot of this is easier if you talk about it with the other (and as an obvious corrollary if the person is around to talk).

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324501791' post='2883465']
1. If GMs get into conflicts, they should agree on an independent moderator in the future. I don't think if they are not directly in conflict though there needs to be one. Thats the only true conflict of interest I foresee. At the end of the day though the GMs are chosen by mods.[/quote]
That would be similar to the reserve team idea. I'm all for it.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324501791' post='2883465']2. I don't think that so long as discussion is made available to those involved parties it is a wrong thing to have an instant messaging conversation for the sake of convenience. I'm not aware of any conversation that is purposefully kept secretive from one GM. I talk to Cent and Cochin in query separately all the time. I'm not out hiding things from either when they ask about it though.[/quote]
The main problem I saw in this issue was that the line between regular chat and GM discussion was somewhat blurred, leading to a sort of "wait, that was for the reform" reaction. Just saying that a specific discussion by PM would prevent such confusion.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324501791' post='2883465']3. I was really the first person that pushed for this idea, a long time ago. Now I'm not so sure. I think we have enough GMs at the moment for the size of the RPing population. I think the real thing is to show some degree of mutual respect. That said, if you put more effort into one thing, take this war, Cochin put a lot more effort into his SOSUS than I did, I put a lot more effort into my air force than he did. That should count for something. A lot of this is easier if you talk about it with the other (and as an obvious corrollary if the person is around to talk).
[/quote]
I don't see how having a panel (even an unofficial one) would hurt. But meh, I guess we already have some sort of panel already. I just like making this official

[Triyun]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324502711' post='2883475']
That would be similar to the reserve team idea. I'm all for it.[/quote]

The thing is, things can change. So I think appointing case by case works.


[quote]The main problem I saw in this issue was that the line between regular chat and GM discussion was somewhat blurred, leading to a sort of "wait, that was for the reform" reaction. Just saying that a specific discussion by PM would prevent such confusion.[/quote]

When we talk about GM stuff, we say 'should we allow this' or not. Its never not clear.

[quote]
I don't see how having a panel (even an unofficial one) would hurt. But meh, I guess we already have some sort of panel already. I just like making this official
[/quote]

No we don't.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1324440740' post='2883040']
Today's minority is tomorrow's majority. I personally don't like having 3 people tasked with governing a community with the amount of power they have. I'd like to remove that power and put it into the hands of the community.
[/quote]

It's the community that gives that power to the GMs. What needs to happen is not to give the power to the community, but for the community to take it, or simply stop giving the GMs that power. Ignore GMs. Acquire consent.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324501092' post='2883458']
Can we all agree that Mael feels like he's the victim of vastly unfortunate circumstance and he's never going to stop playing that victim card till he gets what he wants and then move onto consideration of vastly more substantive topics.

To Tanis's point about logistics. I think there may be a bit of that in this war, but like Shammy for example only has 100k troops. The largest force on any one front is mine, which is around 600k +. That is directly adjacent to my land, and most of my forces are always stationed in the West because nobody lives there, versus the East which is among the most densely populated places on the globe, much like the reason the Western US has a hugely disproportionate amount of military bases compared to population versus the Eastern US. You've got vast areas of open land to build and train.

Edit: Also Kankou, the fact here is, is that this isn't a democracy. All comments here pertaining to the whole of CN RP (versus say one person butt hurt over not having dragons ) are relevant and taken seriously. But I do not think that the moderators have to seek a 'mandate' so to speak.

IMO the biggest thing that can be done for most wars, is the requirement to try and plan them out before the war starts, and then come to the GMs to authorize an unplanned war should one person be intransigent.

GMs are always going to be necessary so long as people have disputes. If people are serious about reducing disputes they should make more pre-planned wars, and when they get outplayed they should be willing to give something up.
[/quote]

I'm not a victim, the community is. I could see it being so much more. It's a pity you only have childish denigrations of another's thoughts to support your side of the discussion.

I could easily turn around and say "Can we all agree that Triyun is butthurt that things may change and for once he might not get his way?" But it would be to easy.. and is also a waste of breath compared to what it would accomplish.

Your suggestions only bolster the power of the GM, and are expected given your current role and do not serve to solve the problems put forward. What looks like caring is actually a kind way of saying "Let me nanny them because they cannot care for themselves." When you could not yourself handle .. a diverse rp environment. Your inability to cope with the creative talents of our authors makes you a poor GM for an RP environment with any level of creative freedom present.

Do not mistake this for me saying your RP is bad.. that would be incorrect. You're excellent.. within your scope. However, your imagination is a dull grey box you cannot seem to escape. Whether you stay in the box by design.. or you simply don't know how to get out of it.. either way, it's a pity.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

Community? What other person whats to turn their people into lizard men?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324504267' post='2883500']
Community? What other person whats to turn their people into lizard men?
[/quote]

You're limiting the scope of the problem to focus in on me. Besides, I have my chimeras. By doing so you're indulging in logical fallacy for your own convenience, perhaps even your own ego stroking amusement, and ignoring the discussion of the use of alternate genres and themes integrated into the rp. Continue in this approach, it suits you.

I mean, you're one of those who would gladly abandon IG alliances and flee war at all cost to preserve his own pixels for the rp.. why should we expect any different from your lips? Even I could run and protect my own tail from alliance to alliance if I wanted for the sake of this forum, but I've not. I bet you haven't had a serious IG battle in years.

See what I did there? I changed the discussion to something more related to you. I can do that too. Now, can we get back on topic?

Do you have a worthwhile reason as to why it would be a bad idea to integrate other national themes and genres? Something beyond, "I don't like it so I'm going to mock it."

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Triyun]

Oh no I've got no problem with people playing lizard... chimeras. I just think that the rest of the community shouldn't be forced to acknowledge that. Like when I use my character Rhee, who can do hulk type things, I would never use that ability without mutual consent. The issue here is that you're the sole person that wants Chimeras, and at least the majority of the community does not, with a few probably apathetic. You've basically been hijacking the topic to get your own way, when its clear nobody wants it, and then claiming its for the good of the community. I'm saying lets move onto subjects that clearly have a chance of getting some actual support. Further, there are at least a dozen ways off the top of my head you could get your reptile cult without violating rules, why can't you simply just have priests dress up as dragons for example? Why can't you have people have freaky surgery like the cat people I saw on Ripley's Believe It or Not. Why not wear rubber godzilla suits (my personal favorite)? The possibilities are quite numerous that don't involve changing things for everyone so you can get your way. Lets move on.

[Captain Enema]

I really don't see a need for more GMs if the GM role is trimmed back to that of a mediator with the decisions for change made by the community.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1324458519' post='2883216']
See the thing is with all systems, they in some ways flawed. We have a GM team for a reason since RPers can and will most likely be not impartial to judgement. Unfortunately, our GM team is amongst the ranks of RPers, which is double-edged sword sometimes, which provides a route to community moderation.

[b]The way I've seen disputes to be resolved is the current system, it's just people are too hot-headed and biased to produce a decent outcome in some high-profile cases. In which case, this my flow chart of dispute resolves.

Self-moderation between two or more players via PM -> self-moderation via OOC thread for public and GM review -> GM ruling if necessary -> community moderation if problems are part of a larger ongoing problem.


It works, but people are stubborn to "I'm bigger, I win" or "insert something here that makes your reasoning sound, but it's not". I know this impartial problem spans way back to when I first started playing CNRP back in 2008, I know we've proposed having that "impartial" GM who did play the game "retire" from the game in a sense. When I look at that, it didn't really solve the problem, it's really still us.

[/b]In the end, the roots come back to the main flavor of RP that exists here, which is rooted in defense and war. We have a huge emphasis on technology and disregarding everything else. People keep stating certain things are just too complex to comprehend or understand, this is no excuse to completely shrug off. Most of us are just replacing entire air force fleets and navies with unlimited money as the newest technology comes along. I don't advocate the use of GDP or introducing economic schools of thought, this conflicts with the three rules of RP. Building stuff should be more realistic.

1) Use common sense
2) KISS
3) Have Fun

If anything, we need to relook into technobabble and copy pasta battle attacks. I know this problem exist in the realms of technology that is being developed and not thoroughly tested IRL; amongst the lower tiers, we know that certain plane, tanks, weapons do different things, and some better than others.

[b]The things lost in war I believe is the sudden appearance of hundred of thousands of troops via planes and ships, when in reality, the logistics are very difficult, not to mention bring in supplies. Logistics is something I've long seen a huge disregards in.[/b] The main thing is when "trying" to be realistic, I'll pull up the US, is having bases in foreign lands to support large rapid deployment. Or lets say for Korea that we have 28k troops there and under OPLAN 5027-00, the counteroffensive would build up to 690,000 troops, 160 Navy ships and 1,600 aircraft deployed from the U.S. within 90 days. (This is from one source, so the truth could be stretched, but previous troop build up as in Desert Shield or Afghanistan suggest it could hold true).

I don't know about you, during the Cochin-Rebel Army War, these movements are unrealistic, but I know you are trying to speed up the RP.

The second thing in the ignorance of logistics is operational range of your equipment, we think we can just barge into a nation and take them out licky split. However, since most of you guys use Main Battle Tanks, you should know the maximum range of your tanks is 300 miles give or take a few miles and your support vehicles (fuel, food, ammo) must try to keep up. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, it is documented about the logistic issues as US armored forces pushed rapidly towards Baghdad, obviously one of the stories in the Jessica Lynch story. The US military is fully aware that having all the technology in the world is meaningless without their experience in logistics to keep fighters in the fight with legions devoted to logistics and studies on it. www.ndu.edu/CTNSP/docUploaded/Case 15 Sense and Respond.pdf

Being on the offensive is an enormous logistic nightmare, being on the defense is not. Under the following scenarios, support from France to the Gulf Federation would span over a month as they tried to move 200,000 troops across the Atlantic, instead of days. It would require an enormous convoy of ships that you probably don't have. No navy on earth, including the US Navy can conveniently move troops in that magnitude within a week.

Another thing I note the use of artillery makes likes little casualties in these wars, killing hundreds instead of thousands when you have hundred of thousands of troops deployed in a bunch. We don't take in terrain or morale affects, although I see the use of battlefield experience as a factor.

In space wars, many of you have back-up spy sats and military communications sats available. When you think of the economic costs of a satellites at the minimum range of $50 million a launch, I find it hard to believe you guys stockpiling hundreds of millions of dollars in inactive equipment and not to mention the maintenance costs.

That's the thing, if we want to be "realistic" we have to accept all the effects of this world or none at all. We are picking and choosing, and that's simply becoming unacceptable.
[/quote]
Bolded the parts I especially agreed with, though really it's a well-thought-out reply in total.

The problem is that [color="#ff0000"]any system derived from the community is itself going to be flawed[/color]...because the community is involved in it. [color="#ff0000"]They polorize on [i]almost[/i] (so don't you guys go saying I said every one, OK?) every issue. They agree something needs to be done, but few listen to any theories proposed by anyone not 'on their side' in the issue.

[/color]----

Now, logistics. Even when you border a nation, you need it, if only to keep resupplying your forces.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324501092' post='2883458']
To Tanis's point about logistics. I think there may be a bit of that in this war, but like Shammy for example only has 100k troops. The largest force on any one front is mine, which is around 600k +. That is directly adjacent to my land, and most of my forces are always stationed in the West because nobody lives there, versus the East which is among the most densely populated places on the globe, much like the reason the Western US has a hugely disproportionate amount of military bases compared to population versus the Eastern US. You've got vast areas of open land to build and train.

Edit: Also Kankou, the fact here is, is that this isn't a democracy. All comments here pertaining to the whole of CN RP (versus say one person butt hurt over not having dragons ) are relevant and taken seriously. But I do not think that the moderators have to seek a 'mandate' so to speak.

IMO the biggest thing that can be done for most wars, is the requirement to try and plan them out before the war starts, and then come to the GMs to authorize an unplanned war should one person be intransigent.

GMs are always going to be necessary so long as people have disputes. If people are serious about reducing disputes they should make more pre-planned wars, and when they get outplayed they should be willing to give something up.
[/quote]
Ignoring the insults directed at mael for the time being, since they are not relevent to my point, You still need logistics when one neighbor is invading another. Refuling and rearming youru vehicles, feeding and re-arming your troops--in short, everything from medics, to mechanics, to cooks, to spare parts and food...no one seems to pay attention to supply lines in this.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324503029' post='2883479']
When we talk about GM stuff, we say 'should we allow this' or not. Its never not clear.
[/quote]
The thing is, sometimes it's buried in a mountain of other lines. Not hard to miss then.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324504267' post='2883500']
Community? What other person whats to turn their people into lizard men?
[/quote]
Now you're just mocking a single example. While his case is specific, there have been multiple people in the past that wanted a nation of something other than humans. JerreyRough, for example? Wanted dwarves. Not for any special advantage (which they did not have) but for flavor. Nothing more.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Subtleknifewielder

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324507941' post='2883541']
Oh no I've got no problem with people playing lizard... chimeras. I just think that the rest of the community shouldn't be forced to acknowledge that. Like when I use my character Rhee, who can do hulk type things, I would never use that ability without mutual consent. The issue here is that you're the sole person that wants Chimeras, and at least the majority of the community does not, with a few probably apathetic. You've basically been hijacking the topic to get your own way, when its clear nobody wants it, and then claiming its for the good of the community. I'm saying lets move onto subjects that clearly have a chance of getting some actual support. Further, there are at least a dozen ways off the top of my head you could get your reptile cult without violating rules, why can't you simply just have priests dress up as dragons for example? Why can't you have people have freaky surgery like the cat people I saw on Ripley's Believe It or Not. Why not wear rubber godzilla suits (my personal favorite)? The possibilities are quite numerous that don't involve changing things for everyone so you can get your way. Lets move on.
[/quote]

You seem deluded into thinking it's only about chimeras. People should be able to play what they want to add flavor if they merely abide by the same statistical standards for warfare. This has a chance of getting support.. if you don't siderail it by confusing people about the core of the discussion.

Machines, Dragons, Elves, Orcs, Faeries, hell.. let their nations be composed however they wish long as a soldier is a soldier and a tank is a tank.

You need to up your debate skills/ethics and focus on the actual argument.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Evangeline Anovilis]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324504267' post='2883500']
Community? What other person whats to turn their people into lizard men?
[/quote]

I would do that, maybe. Though not with Reptiles. But I'm also fine with normal people. And if he wants, he can set up his 'dragonspawn' or whatever they are in the jungles of Vicidalia and maybe also a bit of Colombia, I won't mind him there, as little as I mind the French royals. As long as the differences are only aesthetics, I would bear with it.

In general, I would accept whatever comes OOC. Prepare for fierce IC racism though, if it is too gross.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Triyun]

Subtle nobody said I didn't have to resupply, but my supply chains aren't that long at this point as I'm barely over the border. I'm saying its a false argument for this war really. You're just grasping at a straw of contrarianism on that one.


[quote]Ignoring the insults directed at mael for the time being, since they are not relevent to my point, You still need logistics when one neighbor is invading another. Refuling and rearming youru vehicles, feeding and re-arming your troops--in short, everything from medics, to mechanics, to cooks, to spare parts and food...no one seems to pay attention to supply lines in this.[/quote]

Then you're not reading enough topics and your ignoring the fact that this war has not really gotten started all that much. If you can show this war when there actually are long supply lines then you'll have a point. Until then, frankly you're being ridiculous.

Further, if people want to be genetically predisposed to be shorter with broader shoulders and easier to grow beards (dwarves), with ears that come to a point (elves), they can. Thats not a real issue. Unless you want something that actually gives your people a real advantage, there are lots of creative ways you can find to be both human and suit your particular taste. Yes you can't be a fairie, but I'm sorry just make a different RP topic or operate by mutual consent. There is a line. Further you can make whatever nation you want, and those who don't want to recognize it don't have to. This is the cybernations board, this is not a general RP board. I'm all for good story lines but we came here to play a game thats within a different genre than the one you seem to be about. You can't always get what you want, you have options though. Just use those options creatively, it simply is not that hard. Most of what you want but you don't have is due to your own failure to post rather than restrictive rules.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Triyun, the argument wasn't directed at you then, if you are doing your logistics properly. Common sense, like the GM's like to say, eh? But you have a tone of other allies in this war alone who WOULD require it. That's not counting any previous wars people have fought. COMMON SENSE, FTW! Sorry, but I had to say THAT.

The Point about not having nonhuman characters is, people do complain it's not 'realistic' when really, how is CNRP realistic at all?

----

As for making another RP entirely...yeah, has anyone noticed how all those alternates seem to do?

[Triyun]

So what you're saying is that not enough people care or want to have lizard people and fairies for an RP to keep going, but you want us to alter the rules, so the people who don't want to RP with that have to acknowledge that RP? That seems like a pretty bad argument to me.

On the logistic issue, I'd disagree as well. The UFE, Athens, GGE, and Rebel Army as signatories to the Sovereign Initiative have a lot of overlapping parts. We can operate in each others areas with very little issue due to standardization, quite similar to NATO.

[Sal Paradise]

"should we allow this"

Very magnanimous.

[Kankou]

I'm going to have to say this first: Where are all those people who had sent the concerns to HK? Why are we only having a few people saying the same things over and over again?

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324505910' post='2883515']
I mean, you're one of those who would gladly abandon IG alliances and flee war at all cost to preserve his own pixels for the rp.. why should we expect any different from your lips? Even I could run and protect my own tail from alliance to alliance if I wanted for the sake of this forum, but I've not. I bet you haven't had a serious IG battle in years.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure Triyun had been hit by several major years. Are you mixing up Lynneth with Triyun?

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324511354' post='2883589']
I'm going to have to say this first: Where are all those people who had sent the concerns to HK? Why are we only having a few people saying the same things over and over again?
[/quote]

It's hardly a few people. It's Mael and a few non-community members.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324510883' post='2883579']
So what you're saying is that not enough people care or want to have lizard people and fairies for an RP to keep going, but you want us to alter the rules, so the people who don't want to RP with that have to acknowledge that RP? That seems like a pretty bad argument to me.

On the logistic issue, I'd disagree as well. The UFE, Athens, GGE, and Rebel Army as signatories to the Sovereign Initiative have a lot of overlapping parts. We can operate in each others areas with very little issue due to standardization, quite similar to NATO.
[/quote]
It seems like a bad argument to me to limit it to just humans, when nonhumans will have [i]no special advantage[/i]. How much clearer can it be? Mael has repeatedly stated his modifications would warrant no special advantages. Why limit all creativity just because of his one example?

As for logistics...Those are hardly the only participants in the war. Really. I would have thought you'd pay more attention to who's on your side. And STOP CONCENTRATING ON ONE ASPECT OF EACH ARGUMENT! I specifically mentioned not just this war, but made references to past ones.

Besides, we already have people forced to RP certain things they don't want to recognize...[i]just to stay part of the game[/i].

[Kankou]

That's it, I'm open to allowing Mael to have what he wants as long as he will shut up, stop playing the victim card, and stop throwing around accusations without bases.

Logistics: The only problems I've seen about logistics recently are from those who say that there's a problem with logistics.


[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324511566' post='2883593']
Besides, we already have people forced to RP certain things they don't want to recognize...[i]just to stay part of the game[/i].
[/quote]
What?

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324511566' post='2883593']
It seems like a bad argument to me to limit it to just humans, when nonhumans will have [i]no special advantage[/i]. How much clearer can it be? Mael has repeatedly stated his modifications would warrant no special advantages. Why limit all creativity just because of his one example?
[/quote]
It's not limiting Mael's (or anyone's) creativity. He can RP chimeras all he wants, but those chimeras won't exist in canon. The forum can be used as a writing platform for more than just CNRP.