Disturbing new trend in CN

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1323579421' post='2873220']
Like I said before, I was not privy to information for the other coalition. If you guys were actively planning to come to your allies aid, that's reassuring. But why wait then? What were you waiting for?

I included MHA because you did not Declare in defense of your allies. While I have much thanks for your help during TOP-CnG, it doesn't really apply to my vent here, since this vent is about the current conflict. While you may have been planning your entry (as i've heard from my fellow CnGers) I have not seen the logs or the proof. It was nothing personal. This is not an attack on any alliance because I hate them. The only alliance I genuinely dislike is Polar.
[/quote]

CnG had not declared in defense of their allies when they were attacked by TOP. CnG were waiting while their allies were at war when they were attacked. Just like you I have not seen the logs but I can assume that they were going to enter, just as you can assume MHA was going to enter this war. But if MHA are cowards for waiting "so long" now, then surely CnG were cowards for waiting back then? [b]You are accusing other alliances of doing the exact same thing that CnG has done previously.[/b] And not just that - you're accusing the very same alliance that came to help you when you were preemptively attacked, as being a coward.

For one it just doesn't make sense but it is also outright insulting. Helping CnG was a good thing to do, I used to be proud that we stood up for you but now look where it's got us. The people we helped to save now attack us and try to paint us cowards for being in the exact same situation they were.

That's the disturbing trend in CN and I'm afraid it's nothing new.

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323576740' post='2873193']
I thank you but you must understand my confusion then as to why you did decide to include MHA. Especially as I pointed out in my original post that MHA was there for CnG when they needed it.
[/quote]

Things can change a lot in two years. Allies drop one another and become enemies, sides change, old enemies become friends. Although we remember the sacrifices you made for us years ago, we can't overlook the possibility that you may seek to bring harm to ourselves or one of our allies. We saw the MHA, a large,uninvolved alliance who had a valid reason to hit us or one of our allies and took action. Simple as that.

I recall listening to a Spartan member rant about the war who went on to say that they wanted to see a neutral C&G or a C&G that could've avoided your front all together if we wanted to. I don't see how this is possible after your bloc mate aggressively attacked a C&G member's ally. Another Spartan member would proceed to call us out in their DoW thread. Our bloc has always prided it's self with the simple fact that we defend our allies regardless of the odds or consequences, a trait that is slowly dying in this universe. It's nothing personal, just business.

[unpronounced]

I guess MHA should have just declared on GATO for no reason. (Or MHA can make up ridiculous CB such as "Oh, we know for certain that GATO will declare on Sparta")

MHA will remember your crime, C&G, Hooligans, TPE. Congratulations for making new grudges.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323580440' post='2873232']
CnG had not declared in defense of their allies when they were attacked by TOP. CnG were waiting while their allies were at war when they were attacked. Just like you I have not seen the logs but I can assume that they were going to enter, just as you can assume MHA was going to enter this war. But if MHA are cowards for waiting "so long" now, then surely CnG were cowards for waiting back then? [b]You are accusing other alliances of doing the exact same thing that CnG has done previously.[/b] And not just that - you're accusing the very same alliance that came to help you when you were preemptively attacked, as being a coward.

For one it just doesn't make sense but it is also outright insulting. Helping CnG was a good thing to do, I used to be proud that we stood up for you but now look where it's got us. The people we helped to save now attack us and try to paint us cowards for being in the exact same situation they were.

That's the disturbing trend in CN and I'm afraid it's nothing new.
[/quote]

The situation was not as clear-cut as you make it sound. NpO was at war with FOK and PC in addition to \m/. MK was pretty much handcuffed from defending anyone. Mk were also frantically working long hours (poor MagicalTrevor) to try to resolve the conflict peacefully(which is the best option, when you have 2 allies fighting, just sayin....) TOP and Co. attacked during that time. So, it really is not as if MK was doing nothing to help their allies on both sides. They were trying to contain and end the conflict.

Im editing this because I kinda sound condescending in the beginning, and I dont mean to.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Rush Sykes

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1323574816' post='2873161']
If you think that that's the way it happened in the "good old days", then you are highly uninformed. And no, thats not what i'm asking. Back when NPO was in power, no matter how dark the road ahead of us seemed, people aligned against the hegemony operated out of a sense of honor, duty, and friendship towards one another. Nowadays, there seems to be no real unification between the forces aligned against the "winning" side. It's not so much lining up to take your beating like a led dog, but accepting the fact that in standing by your allies you will be getting rolled. Alliances seem to be more concerned about their pixels now than their friends, or about making a statement. Can you really say you have fulfilled your duty to your allies and friends and still pull these stunts?
[/quote]
You have no idea about anything. The world is the way it is because your own government and its allies have worked very, very hard to make it so. That you are complaining about this is hilarious, you should be gloating about it like MK is.

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1323580636' post='2873233']
Things can change a lot in two years. Allies drop one another and become enemies, sides change, old enemies become friends. Although we remember the sacrifices you made for us years ago, we can't overlook the possibility that you may seek to bring harm to ourselves or one of our allies. We saw the MHA, a large,uninvolved alliance who had a valid reason to hit us or one of our allies and took action. Simple as that.

I recall listening to a Spartan member rant about the war who went on to say that they wanted to see a neutral C&G or a C&G that could've avoided your front all together if we wanted to. I don't see how this is possible after your bloc mate aggressively attacked a C&G member's ally. Another Spartan member would proceed to call us out in their DoW thread. Our bloc has always prided it's self with the simple fact that we defend our allies regardless of the odds or consequences, a trait that is slowly dying in this universe. It's nothing personal, just business.
[/quote]

The names of the alliances involved shouldn't matter. If something is going to held up in CN as being a cowardly act then it should be considered cowardly regardless of who does it.

IE:
MHA waits to go to war, that is cowardly.

CnG waited to go to war, that was cowardly.

And the opposite should be true:

IE:
CnG defended their ally from a preemptive attack, that was loyalty.

MHA defended CnG from a preemptive attack, that was loyalty.

More to the point, one alliance should not be able to accuse another alliance of doing something cowardly if they themselves have done it previously. It's hypocrisy of the highest standard. I know CnG's war against us is nothing personal, I've not said it was, but when members of CnG make a call out thread and specifically call us cowards? Yeah, I'm going to take it personally and I'm going to show you why it's hypocritical and wrong for you to do so.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323581204' post='2873241']
You have no idea about anything. The world is the way it is because your own government and its allies have worked very, very hard to make it so. That you are complaining about this is hilarious, you should be gloating about it like MK is.[/quote]
Denial.

It's an interesting step. You'll start acknowledging your own wrongs soon enough.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1323581295' post='2873244']
Denial.

It's an interesting step. You'll start acknowledging your own wrongs soon enough.
[/quote]
This is rich, explain the evils that RIA has inflicted on the world.

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1323581049' post='2873238']
The situation was not as clear-cut as you make it sound. NpO was at war with FOK and PC in addition to \m/. MK was pretty much handcuffed from defending anyone. Mk were also frantically working long hours (poor MagicalTrevor) to try to resolve the conflict peacefully(which is the best option, when you have 2 allies fighting, just sayin....) TOP and Co. attacked during that time. So, it really is not as if MK was doing nothing to help their allies on both sides. They were trying to contain and end the conflict.

Im editing this because I kinda sound condescending in the beginning, and I dont mean to.
[/quote]

Don't you see the contradiction then? THis thread was made to claim that MHA was doing nothing towards this war and therefore were cowards when you've just pointed out how much there is going on behind the scenes. MK were not cowards for waiting at all, I completely agree, but nor are MHA cowards for also waiting. That's my point, that's what I've been objecting to.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323581518' post='2873248']
Don't you see the contradiction then? THis thread was made to claim that MHA was doing nothing towards this war and therefore were cowards when you've just pointed out how much there is going on behind the scenes. MK were not cowards for waiting at all, I completely agree, but nor are MHA cowards for also waiting. That's my point, that's what I've been objecting to.
[/quote]

Let me preface by saying, I dont 100% share my colleague's view. However, one thing universally agreed on, is that wars need to be shorter. And the delays in completing the expansion phase, make the war drag out that much longer. For instance, our intel says that you were gonna hit NG. Your pre-empt came 5 days after NG hit your ally. Why wait the 5 days? Im guessing you had some sort of hope that we would commit forces elsewhere, leaving fewer counter options. But at the end of the day, the numbers game doesnt change. And once Fark made the pre-empt on NPO, it no longer became necessarry for our coalition to have to look for chains, or go through the headache of finding such connections. So even if the delayed strat on hitting NG would have worked, and we would have committed forces elsewhere, we would have just diverted them back to get where they are needed. All that your coalition has done, since the war began, is ensured that your primary combatants, are locked up longer than need be, and ensured that once again, we have a war that will be measured in months and weeks, not weks and days. This is why this (OOC):game(OOC) planet, is dying.

[Ardus]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323573689' post='2873145']
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79461]No really, tell me again how MHA leaves their friends to burn and CnG would never do that.[/url] Go ahead, click it. You'll find it's a link to MHA (as Harmlins) coming to CnG's defense and then tell me MHA deserves to be singled out in your little rant.
[/quote]
The guy who made that post was abandoned at the end of the war. Justifiably, but left to burn nonetheless. And his only treaty was to you.

How are you? I am swell.

[Ardus]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323581204' post='2873241']
You have no idea about anything. The world is the way it is because your own government and its allies have worked very, very hard to make it so. That you are complaining about this is hilarious, you should be gloating about it like MK is.
[/quote]
I did not divide you from one another. I merely divided you from victory.

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1323581840' post='2873261']
Let me preface by saying, I dont 100% share my colleague's view. However, one thing universally agreed on, is that wars need to be shorter. And the delays in completing the expansion phase, make the war drag out that much longer. For instance, our intel says that you were gonna hit NG. Your pre-empt came 5 days after NG hit your ally. Why wait the 5 days? Im guessing you had some sort of hope that we would commit forces elsewhere, leaving fewer counter options. But at the end of the day, the numbers game doesnt change. And once Fark made the pre-empt on NPO, it no longer became necessarry for our coalition to have to look for chains, or go through the headache of finding such connections. So even if the delayed strat on hitting NG would have worked, and we would have committed forces elsewhere, we would have just diverted them back to get where they are needed. All that your coalition has done, since the war began, is ensured that your primary combatants, are locked up longer than need be, and ensured that once again, we have a war that will be measured in months and weeks, not weks and days. This is why this (OOC):game(OOC) planet, is dying.
[/quote]

The planet is dying because of a few days wait in a global war? Wars which happen once a year at best? The fact that there is a wait at all is due to the tangled treaty web and the necessity to think over your options several times before hitting someone. Nobody wants to line up to be slaughtered, it's not going to help anyone's allies (regardless of who you are, which side your one, or which war we're talking about) by running into a very obviously laid trap - hence the unpredictable declarations we've seen. And indeed, I don't know all the details but I do know this war situation has been changing every single day so what was going to be a good idea yesterday, may very well spell disaster today. I simply don't agree that it's the root cause of the death of Planet Bob.

And plus TOP waited two years before attacking Polar, it's not like patience is in short supply.

[Devilyn Caster]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323581204' post='2873241']
You have no idea about anything. The world is the way it is because your own government and its allies have worked very, very hard to make it so. That you are complaining about this is hilarious, you should be gloating about it like MK is.
[/quote]

Because declaring on both sides of a war or disregarding allies to get stomped for a !@#$ alliance has no effect whatsoever on your fate

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1323581950' post='2873274']
The guy who made that post was abandoned at the end of the war. Justifiably, but left to burn nonetheless. And his only treaty was to you.

How are you? I am swell.
[/quote]

No, MHA was still there for Ramlins with Fark, preventing counters and trying to achieve peace.

I'm well thank you.

[Devilyn Caster]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323581518' post='2873248']
Don't you see the contradiction then? THis thread was made to claim that MHA was doing nothing towards this war and therefore were cowards when you've just pointed out how much there is going on behind the scenes. MK were not cowards for waiting at all, I completely agree, but nor are MHA cowards for also waiting. That's my point, that's what I've been objecting to.
[/quote]

This thread was not made to callout MHA, like I said previously I mentioned them as an example with what knowledge I had at the time I wrote the OP. My point with this thread is that it seems as if honor is dying out from this game - at least from my perspective. I am relating this to my experiences pre-Karma, experiences very few can lay claim to. This isn't a callout to any one alliance in particular, rather a discussion and a presentation on why I believe the other side to be acting in a cowardly manner.

Also I forgot to put this in the OP but my opinions are my own and not that of my alliance. Hiya Rush

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1323582582' post='2873342']
Because declaring on both sides of a war or disregarding allies to get stomped for a !@#$ alliance has no effect whatsoever on your fate
[/quote]
Indeed, TLR would never do either of those things. Such nobility, such courage.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1323582009' post='2873281']
What no love for us? After all the !@#$%*ing last week about ria not coming in? you do this.. If you looks like a coward and you smell like a coward changes are big you are a..
[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1323582919' post='2873379']
Yes, at which point you'll call in your good friends FOK, on whom a counter would be very uncomfortable. Who are you kidding? Do you think everyone here is dumb?
[/quote]
[/quote]

Well isn't that a turd in the punchbowl of your narrative. You may commence painting it as strategy on the part of your coalition, but cowardice on the part of your enemies.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Schattenmann

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1323582924' post='2873380']
This thread was not made to callout MHA, like I said previously I mentioned them as an example with what knowledge I had at the time I wrote the OP. My point with this thread is that it seems as if honor is dying out from this game - at least from my perspective. I am relating this to my experiences pre-Karma, experiences very few can lay claim to. This isn't a callout to any one alliance in particular, rather a discussion and a presentation on why I believe the other side to be acting in a cowardly manner.

Also I forgot to put this in the OP but my opinions are my own and not that of my alliance. Hiya Rush
[/quote]

If you're not looking to call out specific alliances then maybe you shouldn't specifically mention alliances as an example.

It also doesn't change my point that CnG have waited to go to war before and were attacked for it, therefore really shouldn't be calling anyone cowards based on that exact same behavior.

Am I making progress yet?

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323583220' post='2873402']
If you're not looking to call out specific alliances then maybe you shouldn't specifically mention alliances as an example.

It also doesn't change my point that CnG have waited to go to war before and were attacked for it, therefore really shouldn't be calling anyone cowards based on that exact same behavior.

Am I making progress yet?
[/quote]

We had allies on both sides. Poison Clan attacked Polar in defence of \m/ and FOK hit Polar using every article of their treaty. Back then, MK was allied to Polar and FOK and PC was allied to Athens and FoB. I think (could be wrong, was a long time ago) we were arguing amongst ourselves what we should do before we were attacked.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Jgoods45

[unpronounced]

I think what is disturbing new trend is not "Waiting before committing military forces". A disturbing new trend is declaring war without solid evidence, ie. based on hunch or hearsay.

[Devilyn Caster]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323583017' post='2873387']
Indeed, TLR would never do either of those things. Such nobility, such courage.
[/quote]

Glad we agree

[quote name='WorkingClassRuler' timestamp='1323583220' post='2873402']
If you're not looking to call out specific alliances then maybe you shouldn't specifically mention alliances as an example.

It also doesn't change my point that CnG have waited to go to war before and were attacked for it, therefore really shouldn't be calling anyone cowards based on that exact same behavior.

Am I making progress yet?
[/quote]

Let me reiterate. I included MHA based on the fact that there were no declared Defensive wars. I had heard no plans for MHA to enter the conflict. Now if what you are saying is true, then great. I am just making note of the fact that several alliances ganked your MDoAP partner and you did not declare in their defense, while you had no allies on the other side whom were under direct attack. Am I wrong?

[WorkingClassRuler]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1323583878' post='2873435']
We had allies on both sides. Poison Clan attacked Polar in defence of \m/ and FOK hit Polar using every article of their treaty. Back then, MK was allied to Polar and FOK and PC was allied to Athens. I think (could be wrong, was a long time ago) we were arguing amongst ourselves what we should do before we were attacked.
[/quote]

So what you're saying, and I completely agree with you if it is, is that there are justifiable reasons why an alliance wouldn't automatically join a war? Just like there was two years ago, just as there is now.

[unpronounced]

[quote name='Devilyn Caster' timestamp='1323584008' post='2873446']
Glad we agree



Let me reiterate. I included MHA based on the fact that there were no declared Defensive wars. I had heard no plans for MHA to enter the conflict. Now if what you are saying is true, then great. I am just making note of the fact that several alliances ganked your MDoAP partner and you did not declare in their defense, while you had no allies on the other side whom were under direct attack. Am I wrong?
[/quote]

To be clear: Do you think MHA should declare in "defense" of Fark, ie. activating the oA part of the treaty? Or do you think that Fark is not the aggressor and thus MHA should activate the MD part of the treaty?

[Locke]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1323581492' post='2873247']
This is rich, explain the evils that RIA has inflicted on the world.
[/quote]
You retained a treaty with Xiphosis; isn't that enough?